Revisiting Brent Rooker’s Twins Departure: A Tale of Opportunity and Development

[FargoFanMan]

For every Rooker that bounces around and finds himself on a team where he gets a chance and makes the most of it there’s a hundred guys every season who bounce around and end up retiring to go work at John Doe high school as a physical education teacher and coaching baseball. It’s baseball. It happens. And that’s the mystique of it. Just like pocket aces, just like rolling doubles.  Sometimes it’s just chance and it’s fun for a hot minute and then everything comes back to reality.

[Doctor Gast]

2 hours ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Too much patience becomes apathy, all those Terry Ryan years, just siting on those prospects waiting for another development that never came.

Rooker was waived by KC. The Twins got value for Rooker knowing they didn’t have room to develop him on the big league roster. Far more self aware than trading for a guy and giving up on him for nothing and then he develops into a good player.

What I mean by patience is seeing a need & a potential player who can fill that need & having the patience to let the player grow into that position. I'm absolutely against hoarding a certain type of player like Rooker, by all means, trade redundant players. I have no patience for this.

[Russ]

Redefining his approach was also done with other coaches

[saviking]

17 hours ago, dxpavelka said:

Same reason they parted with Eddie Rosario.  They gambled and lost.  It happens. 

And the Twins almost gave up on Laurnach not giving him the opportunity until the last second.

[mikelink45]

I have always thought that a player like Rooker needs to be put in the lineup and left there for a legitimate time to figure things out and get established.  I do not have the details here, but it seemed like he was in and out of the lineup and not used consistently.

I am partial to the story of Willie Mays who had no hits in his first 12 ABs, and he thought he did not belong, but Durocher kept putting him out there.  He was batting .477 with the Minneapolis Millers in the first month of the 1951 season when he was called up to the New York Giants for good.

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

What I mean by patience is seeing a need & a potential player who can fill that need & having the patience to let the player grow into that position. I'm absolutely against hoarding a certain type of player like Rooker, by all means, trade redundant players. I have no patience for this.

We think Player A will be good so we will have the patience to absorb struggles and let him grow into the position.

We think we are redundant at this spot so we will let this guy go. 

Predetermination is the key to your plan. 

[bean5302]

2 hours ago, Russ said:

Redefining his approach was also done with other coaches

No. It wasn't. Rooker did not refine his approach with coaches. If you read his interviews, he makes it clear it was him and his hitting style. Confidence was the issue. His desired approach and swing did not really change much.

[bean5302]

15 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Sometimes when I comment here, I feel like a broken record...

MLB is littered with players that had to bounce around before they saw success.  Some need a new environment, some need the right advice at the right time, some need to be moved to a terrible team where your liabilities are not an issue to allow you to work on your game at the MLB level.

Now I want to see woulda/shoulda/coulda articles about:
Lamont Wade
Liam Hendricks
Ian Hamilton


 

As soon as one of them puts up a 5 WAR season while still pre-arb eligible...

[Rosterman]

Wasn't he also about to be out of options, so he ahd to stay with the Twins? Couldn't go back to the minors. One of the evils of the system.

Twins could face the same issue with, say, Wallner. Didn't they have this issue, too, with Sorrento? No room on the bench, so better to throw-in as tradebait.

[Riverbrian]

10 minutes ago, Rosterman said:

Wasn't he also about to be out of options, so he ahd to stay with the Twins? Couldn't go back to the minors. One of the evils of the system.

Twins could face the same issue with, say, Wallner. Didn't they have this issue, too, with Sorrento? No room on the bench, so better to throw-in as tradebait.

He still has an option remaining with the Athletics. 

[FargoFanMan]

3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

He still has an option remaining with the Athletics. 

At the time you still had 3 years of Kepler. You had Kiriloff who was a hot commodity at the time. You had Larnach and Wallner. You had Lewis a couple months away with no defensive home yet. You had Nick Gordon while now we know at the time he was still a former #1 pick. You had Celestino who was still viewed to have promise. You had all these guys for 1 OF spot/DH plus Arraez who was used a bit in LF/DH as well. He had no place to play. Better as trade bait.

[dxpavelka]

7 hours ago, saviking said:

And the Twins almost gave up on Laurnach not giving him the opportunity until the last second.

Not much of a return.

 

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, FargoFanMan said:

At the time you still had 3 years of Kepler. You had Kiriloff who was a hot commodity at the time. You had Larnach and Wallner. You had Lewis a couple months away with no defensive home yet. You had Nick Gordon while now we know at the time he was still a former #1 pick. You had Celestino who was still viewed to have promise. You had all these guys for 1 OF spot/DH plus Arraez who was used a bit in LF/DH as well. He had no place to play. Better as trade bait.

I'm aware of all the players who made up the roster.

I'm aware that decisions are tough in that GM office. I get it. 

Don't forget the Garlick. Plus Refsnyder, Astudillo and Cave.  

I'm counting on Larnach and Wallner this year.

Everyone else on your list.

Swing and miss.

Gordon cleared waivers. 

Celestino is 25 and looking for work. 

Kepler... Was offensively below average for those 3 years with the exception of two months late in 2023. 

Decisions are tough in the GM chair.

They missed. This can't be argued.

I get everyone trying to justify the miss. The miss is justified.... but it was a rather large miss when the players they chose are no longer in baseball. 

 

[RpR]

12 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I get everyone trying to justify the miss. The miss is justified.... but it was a rather large miss when the players they chose are no longer in baseball. 

 

Miss?

Not hard to miss when the gun you wanted to keep only shot blanks.

[Rod Carews Birthday]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Kepler... Was offensively below average for those 3 years with the exception of two months late in 2023. 

THIS is the redundancy that needed to be trimmed off the roster.  I don't happen to think it was a crime to have missed on Rooker.  That was pretty tough and prospects are difficult to predict.   But hanging onto Kepler for a long time after his ONE great year and always thinking he was going to repeat it was very foolish. 

[Riverbrian]

42 minutes ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

THIS is the redundancy that needed to be trimmed off the roster.  I don't happen to think it was a crime to have missed on Rooker.  That was pretty tough and prospects are difficult to predict.   But hanging onto Kepler for a long time after his ONE great year and always thinking he was going to repeat it was very foolish. 

Some players get chance after chance. Some players barely get a chance. Predetermination is the culprit. It was predetermined that Kepler was going to get chance after chance. It was predetermined that Rooker was some sort of redundancy. 

In two years time Rooker becomes one of the best hitters in baseball. Celestino is hoping to sign a minor league contract at age 25. 

Two years ago... they were a tough decision. 

 

 

[FargoFanMan]

48 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I'm aware of all the players who made up the roster.

I'm aware that decisions are tough in that GM office. I get it. 

Don't forget the Garlick. Plus Refsnyder, Astudillo and Cave.  

I'm counting on Larnach and Wallner this year.

Everyone else on your list.

Swing and miss.

Gordon cleared waivers. 

Celestino is 25 and looking for work. 

Kepler... Was offensively below average for those 3 years with the exception of two months late in 2023. 

Decisions are tough in the GM chair.

They missed. This can't be argued.

I get everyone trying to justify the miss. The miss is justified.... but it was a rather large miss when the players they chose are no longer in baseball. 

 

I get that, but where was he supposed to play? Was he gonna figure it out in AAA over 2 years? Come on man. San Diego and KC whiffed as well. It’s baseball. Happens all the time. The Twins missed. Everyone misses. You miss opportunities. I miss opportunities. For every Brent Rooker there’s a thousand guys that don’t do a damn thing with more talent than he has. Can we be real here?

[Schmoeman5]

On 11/30/2024 at 8:13 PM, bean5302 said:

I did. At least on the order of a wRC+ 120-130 hitter. Not a wRC+ 165 hitter. I doubt MLB franchises turn to TD for player scouting.
 

 

Even a broken clock 

[Riverbrian]

8 hours ago, FargoFanMan said:

I get that, but where was he supposed to play? Was he gonna figure it out in AAA over 2 years? Come on man. San Diego and KC whiffed as well. It’s baseball. Happens all the time. The Twins missed. Everyone misses. You miss opportunities. I miss opportunities. For every Brent Rooker there’s a thousand guys that don’t do a damn thing with more talent than he has. Can we be real here?

LOL... there is something you are not getting. 

Excuse me but this stuff drives me nuts. 

How many times do I need to type "Everyone Misses" in this discussion before you don't reply back to me  "everyone misses" like I haven't been saying that? Did you not understand what I meant when I said "decisions are tough in the GM chair"? Am I not real enough when I acknowledge that? 

Yes the Royals and Padres whiffed they didn't have as much time with him but yeah they whiffed.

The A's almost whiffed. He was the last player added to the roster in 2023. It wasn't like the A's knew what they had either. He would have been the 1st player added to the roster if they knew. The superstar Conor Capel (Currently out of Baseball) opened up 2023 as the left handed DH while Rooker waited for a left hander. Rooker started the season 1 for 9 over the first 9 games of the year. He was getting splinters before the mighty Seth Brown (102 Career OPS+) got hurt giving Rooker playing time.   

Where is he supposed to play? My point isn't just that the Twins missed on Rooker... that can't be argued... The Twins missed on Rooker.

MY POINT is that not only did the Twins miss on Rooker,,, they also missed on THE PLAYERS THAT THEY KEPT. Which is literally the difference between one of the best hitters in baseball and a 25 year old who is out of baseball because no one wants him. 

You listed the players that we kept like it was a no brainer. Yep those players plus the ones that I added are players that got to play OF. You are asking me "Where is he supposed to play"? 

[Doctor Wu]

I think "opportunity" was the appropriate word. Happy that Rooker has found a home and is thriving in Oakland (or, ugh, wherever they are playing next season), but I don't think the Twins can regret that trade too much. Looking back he was just one of several similar players the Twins had and he was expendable. Too many cooks in the kitchen and not enough plates. Not only the Twins, but the Padres and even the Royals soon let him walk. Baseball is such an unpredictable game/science/dartboard. I can think of MANY other players that appeared to be ready for the opportunity, but were either pegged as platoon players or never given a chance at a starting role. It's cool that Rooker seized the chance and has prospered. 

[Riverbrian]

17 hours ago, Rosterman said:

Wasn't he also about to be out of options, so he ahd to stay with the Twins? Couldn't go back to the minors. One of the evils of the system.

Twins could face the same issue with, say, Wallner. Didn't they have this issue, too, with Sorrento? No room on the bench, so better to throw-in as tradebait.

40 Man Pressure was the mechanism. 

The Twins were adding Paddack and Pagan to the 40 man and only losing Rogers in the deal. Someone from the Twins 40 man would need to be added. 

[Riverbrian]

When Camargo was added to the 26 man roster, sat on the bench for over 20 games while he watched Vazquez OPS under .600 every other day. Any threat to Vazquez playing time was neutralized by the decision makers. Camargo was not allowed to compete. The decision makers predetermined the outcome, 

Many don't see the big deal. Many justify it.

I say it's a big deal. It is opportunity robbed for the purpose of locking in terrible performance. It is this type of thing that lets a Rooker gets away. Rooker Nah? We got Garlick for this specialist role and because we got Garlick taking up a roster spot. We have no room for Rooker. 

Oh well... we missed out on Rooker... What a shame... It happens... There was simply no room. The people who don't see this sort of thing are often talking about Log Jams on this website. I often hear of log jams but I have never seen one. I just see a bunch of predetermination that doesn't work out as planned. 

Many don't see the big deal if we add a Margot to the roster so Wallner doesn't have to face left handers.

It's a big deal. Margot isn't good... Wallner doesn't fully develop and you don't have room for a Rooker who it turns out can hit both left handers and right handers. 

All teams miss... Predetermination, not allowing competition, keeping Margot for the entire year, committing roster spots to specialists is how the other players are killed off due to lack of opportunity. 

The People who make these predeterminations are good at their jobs but they are the same ones who chose Garlick and Celestino who are both out of baseball two years later over one of the best hitters in baseball two years later. 

 

[Riverbrian]

The Twins are not going to sign Juan Soto. We all know that... we should all know that by now. The new owner most likely is going to be more of the same. We don't have the luxury of filling roster spots with top level free agents.,, we have never had that luxury. Correa signing with us is pretty rare thing in the history of this franchise.  

Big picture. Development is the only way that this franchise survives year after year. It isn't going to survive just patching holes with Margot and Kyle Garlick for a year and then finding the next Margot and Kyle Garlick to replace them the following year. We are not going to sign Juan Soto... we have to develop Juan Soto. Rooker isn't Juan Soto but he was a better hitter last year then anybody on our 2024 roster. This is the bill you pay when you choose Kyle Garlick for a specialist role.  

Franchise sustaining development is going to be much harder to accomplish when Wallner and Larnach are strip mined for parts instead of fully developed. Franchise sustaining development is going to be much harder to accomplish when Margot and Garlick types are needed to take additional roster spots so you can strip mine Wallner, Larnach and Julien for parts.   

I was for the Paddack Rogers trade when the trade was made. Actually... in all honestly... I was excited about it.  Acquiring Starting pitching is expensive and I saw a starting pitcher as more valuable than a bullpen arm because of the potential to throw 3 times as many innings. I saw Paddack... liked the deal.

Rooker... I had no idea what he would become... how could I? If the Twins are not going to utilize Rooker... might as well let him go.  

However, in hindsight, If the Twins knew what Rooker was going to become what he became. Would they have included him in the deal? They would not have. Why would they? Rooker would return more in a trade today than any of the pieces in this deal combined.

Misses happen. The Twins obviously missed and they obviously didn't know. It happens. 

Who they kept instead is the development problem.     

[Trov]

A couple of things.  Rooker and Ortiz should not be compared other than both played for Twins and Twins let them go.  I will make no further argument as it relates to that.  The second thing is that Rooker had 1 good season at age 29.  Unless he is second coming of Nelson Cruz, having huge production late into 30's, he will be a flash and be gone in a season or two. 

I bet if he was on a different team he would be putting up much worse numbers.  If you look deeper, his biggest numbers came when games were a blow out. 4 runs or more difference.  As the games got closer, his numbers where not nearly as great. He still put up some good numbers in those games but he was inflated when the games were not close.  That is most likely he was facing lessor pitchers, who are just trying to get outs one way or other.  His best inning by far was the 6th, most likely either facing a lower leverage pen guy, or a starter for 3rd time through. 

I am not trying to take anything away from him, but if he is facing top pen arms who are bearing down each time, his numbers will be much worse. Really, A's should shop the hell out of him and sell as high as you can on him. 

[Scott51104]

If I recall correctly, a big if, Rooker was drafted while Terry Ryan was GM, Sometimes, a new leader will think more highly of his/her picks than those of his/her predecessor.

[mickster]

On 11/30/2024 at 5:56 PM, dxpavelka said:

Same reason they parted with Eddie Rosario.  They gambled and lost.  It happens. 

They did not lose in letting Rosario go - yes he had a 15 minutes of fame in the postseason - but other than that, not much

[Riverbrian]

27 minutes ago, Scott51104 said:

If I recall correctly, a big if, Rooker was drafted while Terry Ryan was GM, Sometimes, a new leader will think more highly of his/her picks than those of his/her predecessor.

Rooker was part of the Royce Lewis draft class in 2017. 

That was the very first draft with Falvey and Lavine at the helm. 

[Mike Sixel]

Every team in baseball was wrong about Rooker. It happens. Assigning blame to the FO is ridiculous, especially given all the other options here. But most of the world believes in blame, so whatever. 

Where is the article on TB trading a number 2 starter to MN for 2.5 months of a DH? 

[TheLeviathan]

One thing that I think has improved with this FO....they're not scared to call up young players and play them. Unfortunately, it took them some time (and their own draftees) to start doing that.

Rooker might have never panned out here, but it's malpractice to call them up and play them once a week.  At least we've mostly done away with that lately.

[RpR]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

One thing that I think has improved with this FO....they're not scared to call up young players and play them. Unfortunately, it took them some time (and their own draftees) to start doing that.

Rooker might have never panned out here, but it's malpractice to call them up and play them once a week.  At least we've mostly done away with that lately.

Yep, and the Twins did SO well last year.🤢