Cubs 8, Twins 2: Joe Ryan Leaves Early, Lots of Things Fall Apart At Once

[NYCTK]

8 minutes ago, South Dakota Tom said:

So I get using Varland Friday with Ober as he’s 27th man.  Does Festa pitch Saturday then and SWR on Sunday?  Push Lopez back to Monday against the Royals….we still need a starter for Tuesday before getting back to regular rest (assuming, I guess, that Joe will miss a turn).  Votes?  Bullpen game seems like a stretch looking at the usage chart above.

Willi Castro and Matt Wallner 

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

Is the coaching staff ever going to step in and figure out how to stop teams from running at will on the twins? The twins entered today with the 7th most SBs allowed per game. Add 4 on from today. It’s a huge problem and nobody seems to be doing anything about it. We don’t even make it close most of the time.

Not really buying into the coaching staff being at fault…….separately, would have been nice to see Ryan Jeffers block one ball and keep it in front of him…..I watched 3 innings and there were 4 balls that got past him - understood that Richards didn’t help with his control (no control) but a guy has to smother one of four!

Why do we think the coaching staff and not the players are responsible for stopping an opponent’s running game? These guys are professional baseball players - it’s not about coaching, to me.

[NotAboutWinning]

55 minutes ago, singlesoverwalks said:

Seems kind of passive-aggressive of Rocco to put in Richard's there. Like "Look what you made me do." "Oh, why don't I put in the reliever you got us at the trade deadline--ope! Didn't see THAT coming."

I was thinking the exact same thing! Feel the same way about Rocco's irrational use of Margot. Like he's not going to hide the terrible FO decisions for them.

[JD-TWINS]

42 minutes ago, South Dakota Tom said:

So I get using Varland Friday with Ober as he’s 27th man.  Does Festa pitch Saturday then and SWR on Sunday?  Push Lopez back to Monday against the Royals….we still need a starter for Tuesday before getting back to regular rest (assuming, I guess, that Joe will miss a turn).  Votes?  Bullpen game seems like a stretch looking at the usage chart above.

Pretty sure that SWR is up Saturday & Festa on Sunday.

Lopez to start the K.C. series as those games are just as important!

Tuesday is either Josh Winder as an opener or Zebby Matthews………don’t know of any other choices. PLEASE nobody suggest Dobnak start a game.

[jkcarew]

2 hours ago, Verified Member said:

And to think, based on yesterday’s game thread Randy Dobnak pitching three innings was the worst thing in the world.

Yeah…trying to win each game is really stupid.

[CharlieDee]

Richards gave one of the worst efforts I have ever seen.

[gregens]

18 minutes ago, NotAboutWinning said:

I was thinking the exact same thing! Feel the same way about Rocco's irrational use of Margot. Like he's not going to hide the terrible FO decisions for them.

That's an interesting perspective.   I don't see that Rocco has any visable passive agressive or coniving traits.   I could be presently surprised though.

[Blyleven2011]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

He has as long as needed to warm up, right?

If Winder can't be used in a relief role, even when he has unlimited warm up time, why is he in the pen?

How long did he warm up for his eventual appearance?

I mean, it's a bad situation, I agree. But inserting a short reliever just seems an odd choice.

 

I was on the road and listening on the radio  , both atterbury  and gladden said winder will be coming in  after Ryan departed  with injury  ...

All of a sudden  it's richards warming up and I was fricken pissed , a new guy we don't know much about and he's a 2 pitch pitcher , Rocco or whoever  decision  was the worst blunder of the year  ...

A 2 pitch pitcher with 7 innings to go , then Rocco leaves him in crossing  his fingers  that he could eat some innings  , I understand eat innings but when a guy has no control  , you can pull him after 3 batters  ....

I think gardenhire has put in his dues with the twins in Saint Paul and it's time to promote  , we need a better major league manager  ...

Just when my excitement for the team soared after the 5 game winning streak .

I never listen to Rocco pre or post game interviews , so I don't know what his reason was for bringing in a 2 pitch pitcher that early in the game ...

Man that pisses  me off , Worst blunder of the year  , I'd like to hear what falvy has to say about his prize addition to the bullpen ...

I feel better now ...

[Blyleven2011]

1 hour ago, Doctor Gast said:

Not only would it have been nice to have some serious long relief here to put in some serious innings to take care of the bleeding but also some long relief could have possibly prevented it from happening. I have been preaching this for years but nobody listens. If Dobnak can't do it bring up Varland now. I really didn't want him to have be used strictly as a SP when we desperately need him in long relief but we might not have a choice. When the bleeding starts it sometimes hard to stop it.

Couldn't agree more about varland to the pen , with little depth in the starting pitcher department  , Louie  is starting 1 of the doubleheader games  , so let's hope he has a great start ...

But it weakens that bullpen we had for September and the playoffs last year ...

Long reliefers  Winder or Sands should have came in after Joe's injury  today ...

[AKTwinsFan]

You'd think the coach (Baldelli) would try having the hitter bunt or steal bases to manufacture runs, but he doesn't. The Twins show signs of greatness when they have all their guys on the field but when not they get blown out regularly. You cannot expect to win without your best 3 players sitting out all the time. 

Postseason chances %0.0001

[Aggies7]

1 hour ago, JD-TWINS said:

Not really buying into the coaching staff being at fault…….separately, would have been nice to see Ryan Jeffers block one ball and keep it in front of him…..I watched 3 innings and there were 4 balls that got past him - understood that Richards didn’t help with his control (no control) but a guy has to smother one of four!

Why do we think the coaching staff and not the players are responsible for stopping an opponent’s running game? These guys are professional baseball players - it’s not about coaching, to me.

Knowing when and how to call pitchouts….throw overs….coaching up pickoff moves or getting faster to the plate. We have no chance on most of the stolen bases we allow. They’re stolen on the pitcher.

Especially with a guy like crow-Armstrong. Guy was running as soon as he got on base. Did we call a pitchout once? I honestly don’t even remember.

[mark sills]

still think our best next man up is in double A. Only pitcher we have under 2 for a era 7 innings pitched tonight, nine strikeouts with no runners past first base. Andrew Morris

[USAFChief]

37 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Knowing when and how to call pitchouts….throw overs….coaching up pickoff moves or getting faster to the plate. We have no chance on most of the stolen bases we allow. They’re stolen on the pitcher.

Especially with a guy like crow-Armstrong. Guy was running as soon as he got on base. Did we call a pitchout once? I honestly don’t even remember.

Have the Twins pitched out in Rocco's tenure?

 

 

[bean5302]

3 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

To be fair, most clubs are going to struggle when losing their #2 starter

Lots of clubs who are in the playoff chase have lost either their ace or their #2 for significant lengths of the season, if not the whole season. Yankees, Orioles, Guardians, Diamondbacks, Astros, Braves, Dodgers, etc. It's pretty common, but those teams stacked some high upside depth into their rotations at the beginning of the season or at the deadline so the losses of a top arm weren't necessarily as catastrophic. 

Falvey prioritized depth players at the start of the season rather than front line starting pitching they needed. He gambled they'd be able to acquire what they needed during the season, but they they went cheap at the deadline, too.

That said, losing Ryan for a short while may not even be a huge deal. Second half Joe Ryan results have been showing up for a while now. Last 8 starts: 4.60/3.10/3.27

First Half Joe Ryan ERA/FIP/xFIP
2022 - 2.99/3.99/4.75
2023 - 3.70/3.47/3.64 
2024 - 3.53/3.45/3.47

Second Half Joe Ryan
2022 - 4.14/3.99/3.92
2023 - 6.09/5.43/3.99
2024 - 3.99/3.41/3.20

Still, losing him for more than a minimum stay would be potentially hard on the rotation. The available depth isn't fantastic. Varland, Dobnak, Matthews.

[bean5302]

1 hour ago, JD-TWINS said:

Pretty sure that SWR is up Saturday & Festa on Sunday.

Lopez to start the K.C. series as those games are just as important!

Tuesday is either Josh Winder as an opener or Zebby Matthews………don’t know of any other choices. PLEASE nobody suggest Dobnak start a game.

Winder isn't an option, I don't think. He hasn't thrown 3 innings or more in almost a year. Even last year, he was stretched out to long relief of 3.0-4.0 innings in just a couple games out of necessity as Winder was almost exclusively a 2.0 or less inning guy over the past 2 years.

[bean5302]

I'd prefer Zebby Matthews to Varland, even with the rough AAA results. We'll almost certainly know who it will be by Friday, though. Both Matthews tomorrow and Varland (Friday) are coming up on their spot in the Saints rotation.

[Parfigliano]

3 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Is the coaching staff ever going to step in and figure out how to stop teams from running at will on the twins? The twins entered today with the 7th most SBs allowed per game. Add 4 on from today. It’s a huge problem and nobody seems to be doing anything about it. We don’t even make it close most of the time.

Too many times they dont even make a throw.

[Parfigliano]

24 minutes ago, mark sills said:

still think our best next man up is in double A. Only pitcher we have under 2 for a era 7 innings pitched tonight, nine strikeouts with no runners past first base. Andrew Morris

Its a big jump from AA to MLB

[mark sills]

6 minutes ago, Parfigliano said:

Its a big jump from AA to MLB

so why is he still in double a

 

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, mark sills said:

still think our best next man up is in double A. Only pitcher we have under 2 for a era 7 innings pitched tonight, nine strikeouts with no runners past first base. Andrew Morris

I watched the Wichita game and Morris looked really good. I'm not sure he can jump to MLB.

[Western SD Fan]

Probably the first time this season I get to defend Rocco and the coaching staff today. When Ryan goes down, you need someone who can get hot quickly. That may not be Sands, who may need longer. Yes, they do have as long as it takes to get warmed up on the game mound. But for those of you who watched the TV broadcast, LaTroy Hawkins discussed the difficulty and changes in routine of such an appearance and the pressure to be ready vs actually being ready to go. With 2 lefties, a switch hitter, and a righty, it would make sense to put in Richards as a short term solution to get through the inning and let Sands warm up as normal for the anticipation of pitching a multi inning outing to patch the game through. It didn’t go as planned obviously and Richards should have been replaced earlier when it was apparent he didn’t have control of one of his two pitches. But I still feel the decision to put Richards in at the moment was fine.

[howeda7]

I'll be shocked if we see Ryan before September if at all. The play-offs suddenly feel unlikely. 

[knothole61]

5 hours ago, CharlieDee said:

Richards gave one of the worst efforts I have ever seen.

Let me preface this by saying: God bless the Diamondbacks!

Charlie, I wholeheartedly agree about Richards’ performance tonight and criticize Baldelli for leaving him in so long. You’d almost think that yesterday at Wrigley was a split-squad spring training game wherein the staff was getting a long look at a new pitcher!

When I'm about to besmirch him a bit I always give Baldelli his due: Rocco does some things well and he’ll likely finish his managerial career in the neighborhood of .550. Having said that, I also believe that his lineup wizardry is often inexplicably flawed; that he and his medical staff are very, very cautious; and that his misuse of his relief staff (I know he didn’t pick them, but still) is astounding at times.

I’m not a medical doctor and even though I’m a member of the “rub some dirt on it and keep playing” generation, I do understand the need to exercise a degree of caution with injuries and to insure proper rest for all players during a grueling 162 game season. However, Twins’ players tend to hit the IL and then disappear like dissidents to Gulags under Stalin.

I believe that Baldelli is almost fanatically determined to err on the side of caution (way on the side of caution?), and I think this propensity stems from the frustration he must still feel at having had a very promising MLB career cut short due to serious injuries, and certainly he was a very talented athlete. Tonight, for example, I have a suspicion that Buxton could have played (I think we’ll see him in fine fettle in center on Friday night) and I believe that he also erred in keeping young Lewis out of the lineup with an off day pending.

Finally, regarding what I allege to be Rocco’s astounding misuse of the relief staff on occasion: while I might be convinced of the wisdom of tossing Richards into the breech under the duress of an injury to Ryan, leaving him in for an absolutely atrocious 40+ pitch, five walk, two wild pitch performance just boggles the mind.

It boggles the mind…    

[JD-TWINS]

13 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

If you had Winder available to go 3 innings, why would you toss in the new guy who was unlikely to go multiple innings?

edit: nevermind, I thought Richards had pitched on Monday but he hadn’t since Sunday. Although he’s not a longer relief type anyway

Assumption on Richards remaining in the game, from Baldelli’s point of view, is he thought, just like everyone else watching, he can’t keep walking guys and this will be over in another pitch or two. The pitcher was terrible - no more be said.

Winder to come in for 3 innings was great and in hindsight seems like it should have been the first move.

Richards is hardly new to the game - I think he’s 31. He may be more suited to the situation for an inning because he can get loose quicker. Trying to buy some time to consider how to handle the next 6 innings.

Yes, there’s a day off Thursday for the Pen - Friday though, is a doubleheader v. the key opponent in the Division/A.L. ……guys need to do their jobs on the field or it puts the Team in risk of taking a loss. Richards was brutal.

Yankees lost 8-2 on Wednesday - doubt Boone was managing to lose the game or considered it a throw away game.

[Old Twins Hat]

This game is pretty simple:  make winning plays, as many as you can, every game.

That's it.

Hoping the guys have it in them.

 

[JD-TWINS]

11 hours ago, bean5302 said:

I'd prefer Zebby Matthews to Varland, even with the rough AAA results. We'll almost certainly know who it will be by Friday, though. Both Matthews tomorrow and Varland (Friday) are coming up on their spot in the Saints rotation.

By later Wednesday I think the decision was made for Varland on Friday / with Ober. Seems they have no choice but to use Matthews on Tuesday since nobody else will be rested enough.

An aside: If Topa is ready in next 7-10 days…….Okert is back from his family leave……who gets removed from the Staff/Pen after Dobnak? Winder or Richards? …….obviously, if one of Winder or Richards has a great day or a poor day between now and decision time it will have a lot of weight in decision. 5 walks in an inning is tough to put out of your mind, regardless of whether you are the pitcher - manager - 3B or CF …….everyone’s thinking about THAT in his next outing.

[Aggies7]

8 hours ago, knothole61 said:

Let me preface this by saying: God bless the Diamondbacks!

Charlie, I wholeheartedly agree about Richards’ performance tonight and criticize Baldelli for leaving him in so long. You’d almost think that yesterday at Wrigley was a split-squad spring training game wherein the staff was getting a long look at a new pitcher!

When I'm about to besmirch him a bit I always give Baldelli his due: Rocco does some things well and he’ll likely finish his managerial career in the neighborhood of .550. Having said that, I also believe that his lineup wizardry is often inexplicably flawed; that he and his medical staff are very, very cautious; and that his misuse of his relief staff (I know he didn’t pick them, but still) is astounding at times.

I’m not a medical doctor and even though I’m a member of the “rub some dirt on it and keep playing” generation, I do understand the need to exercise a degree of caution with injuries and to insure proper rest for all players during a grueling 162 game season. However, Twins’ players tend to hit the IL and then disappear like dissidents to Gulags under Stalin.

I believe that Baldelli is almost fanatically determined to err on the side of caution (way on the side of caution?), and I think this propensity stems from the frustration he must still feel at having had a very promising MLB career cut short due to serious injuries, and certainly he was a very talented athlete. Tonight, for example, I have a suspicion that Buxton could have played (I think we’ll see him in fine fettle in center on Friday night) and I believe that he also erred in keeping young Lewis out of the lineup with an off day pending.

Finally, regarding what I allege to be Rocco’s astounding misuse of the relief staff on occasion: while I might be convinced of the wisdom of tossing Richards into the breech under the duress of an injury to Ryan, leaving him in for an absolutely atrocious 40+ pitch, five walk, two wild pitch performance just boggles the mind.

It boggles the mind…    

I’ve said before that the overly cautious approaches to injuries is something that I think becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy with a lot of our guys. I think it gets to a point where players expect to come out of a game at the slightest injury, and may even expect to have a day or two off because of it. It’s a mindset. Injuries, actual ones, happen and obviously some things you can’t play through. But Rocco pops out of the dugout to check on a guy at the slightest awkwardness, hitch, blip, whatever. I feel the same about starting pitchers looking to be removed late in a game at the slightest bit of trouble. 
 

If you have a culture where there’s nothing wrong with coming out of a game and/or missing a handful of games at the slightest bump, how could you expect the players to have a different attitude? Long story short: I think there’s quite a bit of coddling/babying/extreme cautiousness that goes on under this regime and I don’t think it helps. You’ve got to be tough to win, still, in this era of analytics and built in days off..

[LA Vikes Fan]

15 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

Pretty sure that SWR is up Saturday & Festa on Sunday.

Lopez to start the K.C. series as those games are just as important!

Tuesday is either Josh Winder as an opener or Zebby Matthews………don’t know of any other choices. PLEASE nobody suggest Dobnak start a game.

I think you're probably right here. Varland comes up as the 27th man who pitches the second game Friday. He then goes back to St. Paul. SWR goes Saturday, Festa Sunday, Lopez Monday. Ober goes Wednesday so that leaves Tuesday to cover. Too soon to bring Varland back so I think they probably go with either Winder or Dobank as an opener in a bullpen game.

The other wildcard here is  when they bring up Topa. You have to think that either Dobnak or Winder goes back to AAA to make room unless they decide to put Ryan on the IL. Based on the incredibly small sample size so far, the obvious choice to go back down is Dobnak.  My guess is they bring Topa up for the Cleveland series so my guess is that Ryan goes on the IL today or tomorrow for Topa and one of those two will be the opener next Tuesday. They're also going to have to make room for Okert soon. He has to come back from the bereavement list after seven days, which I think might be Tuesday the 13th but hopefully is Wednesday the 14th. Topa up today or tomorrow, then Okert for Winder or Dobnak next Tuesday or Wednesday, hopefully on Wednesday the 14th after Winder starts on the 13th. and then Varland up for whichever one of Winder or Dobnak is still on the roster so he can start next Friday the 16th.

The other potential wildcard is whether there's a waiver claim or recently released guy they can pick up to start Tuesday. That would probably mean a DFA of Dobnak, since no one will pick up his contract and he can then be reassigned to AAA. Fun times.

[chpettit19]

46 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I’ve said before that the overly cautious approaches to injuries is something that I think becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy with a lot of our guys. I think it gets to a point where players expect to come out of a game at the slightest injury, and may even expect to have a day or two off because of it. It’s a mindset. Injuries, actual ones, happen and obviously some things you can’t play through. But Rocco pops out of the dugout to check on a guy at the slightest awkwardness, hitch, blip, whatever. I feel the same about starting pitchers looking to be removed late in a game at the slightest bit of trouble. 
 

If you have a culture where there’s nothing wrong with coming out of a game and/or missing a handful of games at the slightest bump, how could you expect the players to have a different attitude? Long story short: I think there’s quite a bit of coddling/babying/extreme cautiousness that goes on under this regime and I don’t think it helps. You’ve got to be tough to win, still, in this era of analytics and built in days off..

Haven't the Twins had multiple players in the last 2 years refuse to talk about their injuries and have it lead to incredible decline in production? Joe Ryan and Alex Kirilloff are the 2 very public examples. Didn't Buxton try to play through an injury all last year? Didn't Correa play through an injury 90% of last year? Didn't Polanco play through multiple injuries? 

I'm not a fan at all of scheduled off days. If a guy needs a day give him a day, but don't give him a day just because. But there are plenty of players playing through things everyday for this team.

[Aggies7]

59 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Haven't the Twins had multiple players in the last 2 years refuse to talk about their injuries and have it lead to incredible decline in production? Joe Ryan and Alex Kirilloff are the 2 very public examples. Didn't Buxton try to play through an injury all last year? Didn't Correa play through an injury 90% of last year? Didn't Polanco play through multiple injuries? 

I'm not a fan at all of scheduled off days. If a guy needs a day give him a day, but don't give him a day just because. But there are plenty of players playing through things everyday for this team.

Some probably refuse to talk about their injuries because they’re afraid they’ll automatically be out for weeks at a time, as precedence has shown. Royce made comments that seemed to indicate as much after his last injury.