Blame Game: Who Gets the Most Blame for the Twins’ Poor Start?

[rv78]

28 minutes ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

Lee and Walker look like legit MLB players with potential all star potential.  Soto is young but early returns look good.  Winokur in SSS looks pretty good.  

Rodriguez and Gonzalez continue to excel at the things they do well, but still have things to improve.  Festa looks like could be a solid mlb pitcher,  Raya is too hard for me to tell.  

The quantity of solid arms in the minors is really starting to grow.  Lewis, Festa (Canterino and Priellip we will see if can pitch and how well) , Morris, Soto, Raya, Culpepper, Morris - then your 2023 non headliner picks (Hall, Questad, Stoffal, Dougherty, Dunn (looking very good) Langenberg, Paqualotto, and Lee).   We only need 1 to really become that #1 pitcher. 

If you compiled the 19, 21, 22, 23 drafts, the Twins have to have a top 3 record of drafting,   at worst top 5.  We have used a lot of draft capital to support the mlb team through trades.   You keep drafting well year after year after year, the results will show up at the big league level.  

Your enthusiasm is good to see, however in the 8 years this FO has been in charge they've developed 1 pitcher that has been good enough to crack the rotation and stay there, Ober. We can name numerous players that were in the pipeline a few years ago, just like you are naming the ones there now and none of them made it like we were told they would. Where's Duran?.. now a reliever, how about Balazovic? Or Hendrick or Canterino or Winder just to name a few. Maybe they aren't as good at drafting as you think they are or they'd have more players making an impact verses acquiring injured pitchers (which is a whole nother story) to cover for their mistakes.

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

Look at the players we have traded away, let alone in the reds system.  Yes Orioles are #1 because how many early draft picks have they had??  I didn't say #1, I said #3 or #5 especially when you considered where they were drafting. 

19 - Steer, Julien, Wallner, Varland, Canterino

21 -  Petty (top 100 prospect), CES  MLB player,  Povich, Festa

22- Lee,  (several pitching prospects)

23 -  potentially franchise altering draft with Walker leading the charge.   

Other than Orioles show me another team that has drafted that well, especially drafting later because you know they have won their division 3 out of those 8 years   geesh you have high standards.  You need to succeed but also draft in the top 5.  

 

 

19- Michael Busch, Ryan Pepiot
20- Bobby Miller, Clayton Beeter, Gavin Stone, Nick Frasso
21- Emmet Sheehan
22- Dalton Rushing, (every team has several pitching prospects from the 2022 draft)
23- Every team's 2023 draft is potentially franchise altering since none of them have actually played enough to know what they are
There's a quick look at the Dodgers who have been succeeding on the field and in the draft without drafting in the top 5. I don't have time to do all the systems. If Povich and Festa types are all you're looking for then the Twins aren't standing out at all.

I love Canterino, but he's thrown 85 professional innings and he's now 26 years old. If all you need is top 100 guys to get bonus points here (Petty, Lee, Povich isn't even there, but he's doing well right now, Festa isn't a top 100 guy yet you want him to get credit) then there are a lot of systems beating the Twins. Which is kind of my point. Orioles, Cubs, padres, Brewers, Tigers, Rays, Red Sox, Nationals, Rangers, Dodgers, etc. have better systems than the Twins.

I'm not saying the Twins are terrible. They're an average team with an average system. I want more than average. But we're clearly not going to see eye to eye here so best we move on and let others discuss the topic at hand instead of us going back and forth with no end.

[h2oface]

The scheduling? 
 

Before this series with Chicago, neither the White Sox or the Twins had played a team with a W-L record under .500. The White Sox were 3-18 and the Twins were 7-13.

Naaaaa. It’s the players who don’t get themselves ready for the season and are so fragile and physically tight. 

[mikelink45]

3 hours ago, wabene said:

I was going to post this too. Way to go. The industry sees us different than many fan perspectives.  Of course that could mean that there are a lot of lousy front offices.

[Whitey333]

Great comments by all.  Blaming the schedule is ridiculous.  Is anyone blaming the schedule now that we are playing the absolutely dreadful White Sox?  Blaming the fact you are playing better teams shows how far the team is from being a top team.  I put most of it on the ownership and FO.  The ownership for cutting payroll by so much and doing such an unprofessional job in handling it.  I blame the FO for coming up with new excuses for inept play.  Yes the players need to play better.  But the FO put the team together. They share in the responsibility.  Of course players like playing here, especially the veterans.  There's very little pressure on them by the media and especially the management to perform.  The fact that we may soon reach .500 by beating up on the AA White Sox shouldn't mask the many problems with this team.

[Ghost of Kirby Puckett]

As a business owner, I know crap rolls downhill, so ownership is at the top of this list. To me, it starts their and it ends their. 

[Jocko87]

3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Why do you say it's incorrect to believe the FO is involved with the plans and day to day on field stuff? They have daily, sometimes multiple times a day, meetings with Rocco. They talk to the coaches/managers every single day of the season. They built the coaching staff based around guys they felt could implement certain strategies. They brought in players with certain skill sets. Why would it be incorrect to believe they are involved in the day to day plans? They're not sending guys to AAA and calling guys up from AAA based on hunches and guesses of what the on field staff are doing with guys. Falvine is incredibly involved in the day to day plans of this team.

Dangit, here we go again. I have no reason to believe Falvine is meeting with Rocco multiple times daily. I would love to read some articles on a day in the life of Derek but I promise, he ain't setting pitch counts.  

More importantly, you are very vocal in your opinion that coaching doesn't matter, it's on the players.  We've gone back and forth on it multiple times.  You made a case in this thread that it's the wrong players but not accounted for those wrong players performing at 50% of their career norms. OK, Santana may be old but the rest don't have that excuse.  How can you hold those two together?  

How can the front office drive poor performance but the coaching staff have minimal effect on these finely tuned specimens?  If the coaching staff doesn't matter (per you) how can these specimens operate without President Derek telling them what to do?  (Skipping at least 4 levels of staff)

[Jocko87]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

Look at the players we have traded away, let alone in the reds system.  Yes Orioles are #1 because how many early draft picks have they had??  I didn't say #1, I said #3 or #5 especially when you considered where they were drafting. 

19 - Steer, Julien, Wallner, Varland, Canterino

21 -  Petty (top 100 prospect), CES  MLB player,  Povich, Festa

22- Lee,  (several pitching prospects)

23 -  potentially franchise altering draft with Walker leading the charge.   

Other than Orioles show me another team that has drafted that well, especially drafting later because you know they have won their division 3 out of those 8 years   geesh you have high standards.  You need to succeed but also draft in the top 5.  

 

 

 

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

19- Michael Busch, Ryan Pepiot
20- Bobby Miller, Clayton Beeter, Gavin Stone, Nick Frasso
21- Emmet Sheehan
22- Dalton Rushing, (every team has several pitching prospects from the 2022 draft)
23- Every team's 2023 draft is potentially franchise altering since none of them have actually played enough to know what they are
There's a quick look at the Dodgers who have been succeeding on the field and in the draft without drafting in the top 5. I don't have time to do all the systems. If Povich and Festa types are all you're looking for then the Twins aren't standing out at all.

I love Canterino, but he's thrown 85 professional innings and he's now 26 years old. If all you need is top 100 guys to get bonus points here (Petty, Lee, Povich isn't even there, but he's doing well right now, Festa isn't a top 100 guy yet you want him to get credit) then there are a lot of systems beating the Twins. Which is kind of my point. Orioles, Cubs, padres, Brewers, Tigers, Rays, Red Sox, Nationals, Rangers, Dodgers, etc. have better systems than the Twins.

I'm not saying the Twins are terrible. They're an average team with an average system. I want more than average. But we're clearly not going to see eye to eye here so best we move on and let others discuss the topic at hand instead of us going back and forth with no end.

Prospects are not part of the 7-13 start of the big club.  There are plenty of other threads for that. 

[SteveLV]

1)  Ownership cutting payroll even before they knew how the TV issue would be resolved;

2) FO for LOUSY decisions on how to spend the available funds.  Farmer, Santana,  and Margot.  DeScal trade.  No meaningfull SP additions, only subtractions.

3) Batters are underperforming, especially with RISP.  Pathetic.

[1985Fan]

The poor performance this year is on the FO, owners, coaching staff, and players. Not in that order. Injuries happen, should be expected. They’ll get both Lewis and Correa back, so it’s not the end of the season. The schedule is always a gamble. The old saying “ it’s not who you play, it’s when you play them” proves true over a long season. Especially with the new balanced schedule. 
I blame the coaching staff more than anything. Players are going to go through slumps, that’s part of the game. But all the players going through at the same time?! This has happened two years in a row now, so it’s not a one time phenomena. I also look at how the manager reacts during team slumps. I don’t see Rocco trying anything different to give the team a jolt or squeeze out a run, batting order looks the same, same station-to-station play, etc.  What’s the definition of insanity? 
Rocco doesn’t have the skills, personality, or baseball knowledge to work with a player to get them out of a slump. Definitely not at the same level as Kelly or even Gardenhire. Not in the same league as Bochy, Baker, or Francona. If the manager needs an all star roster to win, then fire Rocco and I’ll take the job. The owners can save the salary, I’ll take the job just for the season tickets. 

[chpettit19]

48 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

Dangit, here we go again. I have no reason to believe Falvine is meeting with Rocco multiple times daily. I would love to read some articles on a day in the life of Derek but I promise, he ain't setting pitch counts.  

More importantly, you are very vocal in your opinion that coaching doesn't matter, it's on the players.  We've gone back and forth on it multiple times.  You made a case in this thread that it's the wrong players but not accounted for those wrong players performing at 50% of their career norms. OK, Santana may be old but the rest don't have that excuse.  How can you hold those two together?  

How can the front office drive poor performance but the coaching staff have minimal effect on these finely tuned specimens?  If the coaching staff doesn't matter (per you) how can these specimens operate without President Derek telling them what to do?  (Skipping at least 4 levels of staff)

Derek Falvey meets with Rocco (on the phone or in person) every single day. We've actually had members of the FO on this site confirm that. I don't know why people question that. They discuss plans and strategy for the roster, etc. every single day.

The FO gets blame for the poor performing roster (from me, you don't have to agree) because they are the ones who brought in the bad players. Kyle Farmer being bad in his first 12 ABs against lefties is strange, but him being terrible as an everyday player isn't. You acknowledged Santana. Margot struggling against righties isn't weird. Sophomores having struggles as they have to adapt to a league that now has a plan for their weaknesses isn't weird. Vazquez being a bad hitter isn't weird. Buxton being streaky isn't weird. None of it is weird. It's small sample size so a couple outs vs hits here and there makes them "50% of their career norms." That's the nature of small sample sizes.

I never claimed the FO is why the players are playing poorly. I just pointed out that the FO talks to the coaches everyday so the idea that they have no say in strategy is wrong. And I said I blame the FO because they're the ones who put together a flawed roster that is seeing struggles numerous people on this site said all offseason they'd struggle with. Short side platoon bats struggling as everyday players shouldn't surprise people. But apparently it does.

[Reptevia]

This is the third year in a row that the Twin’s are plagued by injuries. When does “bad luck” become a trend?

[chpettit19]

55 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

 

Prospects are not part of the 7-13 start of the big club.  There are plenty of other threads for that. 

It's a thread about blame for the performance of this team. Many people on these threads have said they wanted to play guys from the system over the bad vets. The article talks about blaming the FO. Many of us discussed the problems we have with the choice of player types this FO seaks which is tied to prospects in many ways. When some of us blame the FO it's because we feel they've provided less than adequate prospects to provide support for a 7-13 team. There have already been multiple big league debuts to take place on this team, and Lee is a constant talk about his injury also being to blame. It was an appropriate conversation that we ended on our own so your policing isn't needed. 

[Jocko87]

24 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Derek Falvey meets with Rocco (on the phone or in person) every single day. We've actually had members of the FO on this site confirm that. I don't know why people question that. They discuss plans and strategy for the roster, etc. every single day.

I looked. Maybe my search skills need help. Help a brother out with a link. 

[chpettit19]

42 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

I looked. Maybe my search skills need help. Help a brother out with a link. 

Goin was a former member of the Twins front office when he made the last post on this thread. So you can take that for what you will. 

In this one he talks about making up lineups for Gardy back in 2013 as a member of the front office.

Those are 2 quick ones for you, but I'm off to bed so don't want to look up more. Believe what you want from those posts. The FO and the manager/coaches are in contact everyday and work on the strategy for that day's and future games together.

[Fatbat]

Meanwhile you have Emmanuel Rodriguez in Wichita lighting the world on fire every night.  You want to change things up? Promote him and cut Margo. That would send a message. 

[JD-TWINS]

20 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

From least to most I think you hit the order on the head perfectly.  Players gotta play!

#1 is Chief reason for sure…….,basketball players have to make shots…….. football players have to catch the ball….. baseball players need to hit - it’s Not Coaching!!

Santana is 38 - Farmer is 30 something - Vazquez is 30 something…….they are not performing & they haven’t been poisoned by the “Twin’s philosophy” at this point in their careers!

#2 Ownership reverting budget back to 2021 level……I thought, at the time the depth position depth moves were affordable & OK ……. an extra (level to 2023) $27-$30M nets somebody that can pitch. Lugo - Wacha - Montgomery in hindsight …..,they choked the F.O. into not being able to make a positive move via F.A.

Then go back to #1!!!!

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

12 hours ago, Reptevia said:

This is the third year in a row that the Twin’s are plagued by injuries. When does “bad luck” become a trend?

Show me a team not plagued by injuries??   Massive injuries specifically of pitchers.  I think this is part of the reason,  Twins are really cutting back on starter innings especially early on.  Easy them into it.  

As to overall strategy,  what the front office is doing leads to ultimate results on whether the team is successful.  As to where our farm ranks,  personal as of right now I think ours is slightly above average, would rank in the 13 to 14 range.  I fully expect it to continue to improve and have a fully stocked cupboard within a year.  Fully expect in the 5-10 range unless we are trade players away.  

[Sparky55]

22 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

From least to most I think you hit the order on the head perfectly.  Players gotta play!

It really is on the players but injuries certainly didn’t help. The owners lowering payroll after a playoff run last year makes me wonder if they are really in this to win or make money. I wouldn’t mind new more aggressive ownership.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

1 minute ago, Sparky55 said:

It really is on the players but injuries certainly didn’t help. The owners lowering payroll after a playoff run last year makes me wonder if they are really in this to win or make money. I wouldn’t mind new more aggressive ownership.

There is really nothing to wonder about.  Ownership has been upfront that money drives 98% of their decisions.  That is why you are seeing hand-wringing over $500k decisions right now.  They are not willing to make necessary moves to make the team better.

One thing I wonder about:  When someone smarter than me runs a cost analysis on this team, what do the ratios of wins vs. payroll vs. attendance show?  Does winning the division increase income enough to offset a 10-15% increase in payroll?  How does that effect attendance?  My guess is there is a sweet spot where the Twins are competitive (but not great) with a mid-level payroll that generates enough attendance to make money.  Which means we as fans accept high-mediocre teams at an acceptable rate by ownership.

[Jeff K]

22 hours ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

Dang 20 games in and already the blame game LOL.  Injuries have been the biggest issue and its not even an option.  

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree.  Ownership knew a new TV deal was needed and didn't get it done until VERY late...and it's not a new deal.  The appears to have lead to cutting payroll.  Management made the decision to get a deeper bullpen and not acquire much for our departing starting pitchers.  This was a gigantic mistake.  The best relievers on the Twins thus far are all holdovers from last year.  They acquire DeScalfini as a possible 5th starter (I still favor that trade) but he was probably no more than a 50/50 proposition to come back from his injury plagued season.  And that left Varland who has not shown he is a starter and would have made a nice reliever.  Consequently, my opinion is the front office should have targeted one or two middle rotation starters either via free agency or trade.  And let's not even discuss how awful the decision was to sign Santana when we could have had Solano back.  Ownership and Falvine are the primary blame; and no it's not too soon to judge.  I remain hopeful that the Twins will turn it around with players returning from injury.  However, the injuries do not explain the off season blunders.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

41 minutes ago, Jeff K said:

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree.  Ownership knew a new TV deal was needed and didn't get it done until VERY late...and it's not a new deal.  The appears to have lead to cutting payroll.  Management made the decision to get a deeper bullpen and not acquire much for our departing starting pitchers.  This was a gigantic mistake.  The best relievers on the Twins thus far are all holdovers from last year.  They acquire DeScalfini as a possible 5th starter (I still favor that trade) but he was probably no more than a 50/50 proposition to come back from his injury plagued season.  And that left Varland who has not shown he is a starter and would have made a nice reliever.  Consequently, my opinion is the front office should have targeted one or two middle rotation starters either via free agency or trade.  And let's not even discuss how awful the decision was to sign Santana when we could have had Solano back.  Ownership and Falvine are the primary blame; and no it's not too soon to judge.  I remain hopeful that the Twins will turn it around with players returning from injury.  However, the injuries do not explain the off season blunders.

This isn't just a Twins issue,  that there are major issues with their revenue model will continue to be an issue.  I still think Desclafani was a mandatory add in by Seattle,  I think the elbow was shot and everyone knew it.  Its just the Twins were willing to gamble and see how long the rubber bands would last (as shown not long).  

[RpR]

14 hours ago, Reptevia said:

This is the third year in a row that the Twin’s are plagued by injuries. When does “bad luck” become a trend?

If you believe luck, it is a curse that never goes away.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ownership, and it's not close.

[Jeff K]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

This isn't just a Twins issue,  that there are major issues with their revenue model will continue to be an issue.  I still think Desclafani was a mandatory add in by Seattle,  I think the elbow was shot and everyone knew it.  Its just the Twins were willing to gamble and see how long the rubber bands would last (as shown not long).  

I get the revenue model is flawed as evidenced by the numerous teams that shrank their payroll.  And I think you are correct about DeScalfini as a throw in.  I like the trade.  Polanco was, at best, an average fielding 2nd baseman with a diminished ability to stay on the field.  But this reinforces my beef with Falvine.  They did virtually nothing to replace the lost starters.  Our starting depth is in the minors and not quite ready (except SWR we hope).  Mid rotation starter(s) ought to have been the goal.  None of the new relievers have had a significant impact on the team.  Our best relievers are from last years team.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

1 minute ago, Jeff K said:

I get the revenue model is flawed as evidenced by the numerous teams that shrank their payroll.  And I think you are correct about DeScalfini as a throw in.  I like the trade.  Polanco was, at best, an average fielding 2nd baseman with a diminished ability to stay on the field.  But this reinforces my beef with Falvine.  They did virtually nothing to replace the lost starters.  Our starting depth is in the minors and not quite ready (except SWR we hope).  Mid rotation starter(s) ought to have been the goal.  None of the new relievers have had a significant impact on the team.  Our best relievers are from last years team.

With what money, or what trade?   Varland up to this point hasn't worked out.  I think Paddack had a good outing.  Lets see if he can get on track.  SWR is being given an opportunity, will see what happens.  

[TopGunn#22]

Oh, there is blame aplenty to go around.  It all starts with ownership.  The idea $30 million needed to be cut from the salary budget when there was no great mystery the Pohlad's were NOT going to be $55 million in the hole for the 2024 season is laughable.  They KNEW there were going to get a pretty hefty sum from Balley for 2024.  These things don't just suddenly happen.  They got $48 million.  Cutting $30 million wasn't necessary.

I'm not against dealing aging players to give younger, up and coming players a chance.  With Julien, Brooks Lee and even Austin Martin in the pipeline there was no need to keep Polanco.  So this brings me to the FO.  This FO has always been either a home run or a strikeout.  Much like their hitters.  They either push all the right buttons with veteran pickups, like last year with the exception of Gallo (which made zero sense from the beginning--adding a LH bat when the team craved a RH bat).  Or they push all the wrong buttons like Margot and Santana, or every veteran they brought in for the bullpen, also keeping an aging Theilbar when Funderburk is the obvious successor, to hanging on to an expensive utility guy like Farmer.

The hitters need to hit.  But I watch their approach and I wonder "are they being coached to this" or do they just have no plan or sense of situational hitting.  The Twins are incredibly frustrating to watch while batting.  I go back to the ownership and FO.  They needed to fill the void left by Sonny Gray's exit and essentially chose not to.  They deemed DeSclafani the replacement and then went with Varland as the #5 SP.  Cleveland, Detroit and KC all WORKED to get better and it shows so far.  If ownership imposed a "salary cap" for lack of a better term and the need for a veteran SP was acute, the answer was right there all along and actually still is.

[Rosterman]

 I can't wait to see what happens when Lewis and Correa, not to mention Duran, Topa come back.It would be a shame to demote Funderburk and, say, Sands because you can (or even Bowman). When the questionable arms are Thielbar and Jackson. Not to mention Alcala deserves to be a Twin. And there is still Staumont hoping for big league work.

And on offense, better to keep Martin and Miranda than Farmer, Margot or Santana if you had to make a choice. But we can send the young guys down and not eat salary.

The Twins wasted a lot of signing dollars and even tradebait on players that won't be arund in 2025 for sure. Sadly.

 

 

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

Small sample sizes are small sample sizes especially when several of your best players are injured.  Duran will immediately solidify the bullpen,  which hasn't been bad but can put everyone else in their correct roles.  

Miranda, Larnach and Kiriloff all doing well.  Making up for Wallner going MIA.  Martin has held his own,  Kepler and Santana are beginning to warm up.  This team is still set up to do very well this year,  just need to keep hitting well, and continue to get good pitching performances.  

I thought it was silly coming out with this article last week,  thought we should wait until at least this week to see if we can hold our own against poorer competition and then see how we do against better competition when at full strength.  

Chpettit,  you have great baseball knowledge,  but like many on the board focus too much on past mistakes, issues beyond this managements control and in general like to jump on the team when performing poorly.  

After this winning streak,  other than the week in review how many positive articles are out . . . none.  How many negative articles came out last week  . . .      It seems like some enjoy when the team is doing poorly rather than doing well.   

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

On 4/24/2024 at 4:22 PM, rv78 said:

Your enthusiasm is good to see, however in the 8 years this FO has been in charge they've developed 1 pitcher that has been good enough to crack the rotation and stay there, Ober. We can name numerous players that were in the pipeline a few years ago, just like you are naming the ones there now and none of them made it like we were told they would. Where's Duran?.. now a reliever, how about Balazovic? Or Hendrick or Canterino or Winder just to name a few. Maybe they aren't as good at drafting as you think they are or they'd have more players making an impact verses acquiring injured pitchers (which is a whole nother story) to cover for their mistakes.

Look at how we have drafted over the years,  in reality have we spent any decent draft capital on pitching . . . the answer is no.  Since 2017 here our draft picks in the 1st 3 rounds used on pitching through 2021 (Leach, Enlow, Canterino, Petty, Hajjar, Povich).  We used a 1st round pick on a pitcher in 2021 and turned it into 2 great years of pitching from Sonny Gray  and an additional 1st round pick this year.  We are just now starting to see the team using more early round picks on pitchers.  We have a few options that can be #1 or #2 pitchers but we are building up a pretty good group of arms that can be back end of the rotation starters.   When you look at the total picture what they are doing is really amazing.   I will let the players continue to perform.   I anticipate strong finishes at all levels in the minor leagues this year and the players performances and rankings should go up accordingly.