Making moves for the playoffs with Angels

[BsuNemo]

23 hours ago, GusGus11 said:

Mixed. Of contenders the ones in front of us are Marlins, Reds, Giants, Dbacks and Red Sox.

I believe since we are leading our division the record tiebreaker with Dbacks and Red Sox goes to them(althouhg not positive).

Guardians cant be dicks and blocks us. They move to back of the pack since they already claims Laureano a couple weeks ago.

Record tie breaker goes to the AL team first (thinking cuz it was an AL team that dropped them) and tie breaker in the AL goes by last year's record. 

[chpettit19]

42 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

Good point with tax threshold, but my point stands in other situations.

I would almost argue that teams that are playing prospects and AAA types who need to play well to get another shot give just as good of a game as one with vets who are mailing it in at the end of the season.  I have zero stats or numbers to back this up though.

No player that was waived was a controllable asset though, so that doesn't really change anything, unless I missed one somewhere.

No, I don't believe there were any controllable assets waived, but my point was that that's all that rebuilding teams would have left. They trade all their other guys at the end of July because they want talent back in return, not just salary relief. I just think the Angels are an outlier. They're quite possibly the worst run team in baseball and I don't think we need to make drastic changes to any rules because they're terrible at what they do. The other guys that were waived were one offs from a couple different clubs. I don't think it's a sign of things to come. Trading top prospects for guys you're going to waive in a month isn't a great team building strategy. Harrison Bader isn't significantly better than Jordan Luplow who the Twins got off waivers earlier in the month. The Angels are the only weird thing here, and I don't see them being trend setters.

[Jocko87]

8 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I believe the players union was behind the elimination of the August waiver trade deadline in an effort to slow what they called tanking. 

Of course... teams found a way around that as evidenced yesterday and this version is worse because these players are sitting in a box marked "Free Puppies".

 

 

4 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

This is crooked as hell, and the Twins should totally be taking advantage of it before they fix it next year.

I don't think any of this is crooked as hell. There are already collusion rules in place to cover all this. However, I will forever call it the free puppies deadline going forward.

This is on purpose, out in the open and the smartest front offices will be the ones that take advantage of it before it becomes mainstream.  It's the obvious result of the new September roster limit. If you want to see your kids play, you will have to remove some folks from the roster instead of just sitting them on the bench. The timing is natural to bolster marginal playoff rosters as the release will have to happen, surprise, at both call up and playoff eligibility time.

I'm willing to bet this is on purpose to help postseason interest. Whoever the Braves play got a couple guys and it's more interesting now, etc.

The Angels actually did something smart here, at least they are making the best of their other bad choices. A lot of us and other front offices would never have thought about it.

They will never tell us but I bet the Twins had a plan for this as they knew they would be in the sweet spot to claim someone.  It would make the trade deadline make sense. The Angels are taking all the headlines but there's a bunch of options. 

[Twodogs]

You have to think that possibly one or two of these guys can make us better, if that's the case then it's only a months worth of money.  They might as well pull the trigger.

[Riverbrian]

58 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

No, I don't believe there were any controllable assets waived, but my point was that that's all that rebuilding teams would have left. They trade all their other guys at the end of July because they want talent back in return, not just salary relief. I just think the Angels are an outlier. They're quite possibly the worst run team in baseball and I don't think we need to make drastic changes to any rules because they're terrible at what they do. The other guys that were waived were one offs from a couple different clubs. I don't think it's a sign of things to come. Trading top prospects for guys you're going to waive in a month isn't a great team building strategy. Harrison Bader isn't significantly better than Jordan Luplow who the Twins got off waivers earlier in the month. The Angels are the only weird thing here, and I don't see them being trend setters.

Agreed about the Angels... OMG. It has to be the handiwork of Moreno. No GM would do what they just did. It actually hurts me to think that this organization went from possibly adding a couple of top 100 prospects for the rental of Ohtani to giving up 4 of their top 30 prospects instead and then just put the players they acquired for those prospects into a free puppy box. 

I also think you are right about the Angels being an outlier but only in the sense of the volume that they just threw on the pile. 

Clevinger with the White Sox is a pretty nice puppy for some playoff bound pitching staff looking for a basset hound. 

This feels more than a one-off to me.  

I mentioned this earlier. If I was the Twins... I would have done the same thing to Forsythe. The expiring contract player serves no purpose on a team not going to the playoffs. Forsythe was serving no purpose for us. I would have also sent Simmons a float in August of 2021. And... And... I absolutely would not have signed Matt Belisle in 2017. 

The Angels releasing this much talent may be a one off with the luxury tax and qualifying offer compensation for Ohtani as legitimate factors... but... I can't help but think that the Angels... just may have shown everyone a better way to manage expiring assets.

And of course... if it's the Angels showing us a better way... they did that by accident.    

[Riverbrian]

51 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

I will forever call it the free puppies deadline going forward.

[jaimedude]

Sure would like to get one of either Matt Moore or Reynaldo Lopez. 

[Jocko87]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

All you have to do is raise your hand, pay the adoption fee and it's yours!

[Azviking101]

4 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

It's an agreement/negotiation between the players union and major league baseball.

Manfred wasn't the only smart person in that room.   

Literally all they would have had to do was put in a clause that if a team makes a successful claim they move to the back of the waiver order. Pretty simple and makes too much sense. I don’t see how anyone would have opposed that. But they didn’t even think about it 

[BSLinPA]

9 hours ago, Squirrel said:

I feel sorry for the players ... what a sucky business 

Yep, gotta feel bad for the guys mentioned most in this thread.....making $3.6M (Lopez), $5.2M (Bader), $7.5M (Moore), $8M (Clevenger), $10.3M (Grichuk) and $10.4M (Giolito) this year and now finding themselves claimed by a team in playoff contention.  Is there anything worse than getting the opportunity to shine in the postseason in a contract year????

[Azviking101]

Giants are officially behind the twins in waiver order now and we should all be cheering on the dbacks tonight. 

[Mike Sixel]

22 minutes ago, BSLinPA said:

Yep, gotta feel bad for the guys mentioned most in this thread.....making $3.6M (Lopez), $5.2M (Bader), $7.5M (Moore), $8M (Clevenger), $10.3M (Grichuk) and $10.4M (Giolito) this year and now finding themselves claimed by a team in playoff contention.  Is there anything worse than getting the opportunity to shine in the postseason in a contract year????

Moving your family over and over. Having to find places to live. Leaving guys you know, for those there more than a few weeks. It isn't all rainbows and sunshine.... These are people. 

[Vanimal46]

3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Agreed about the Angels... OMG. It has to be the handiwork of Moreno. No GM would do what they just did. It actually hurts me to think that this organization went from possibly adding a couple of top 100 prospects for the rental of Ohtani to giving up 4 of their top 30 prospects instead and then just put the players they acquired for those prospects into a free puppy box. 

I also think you are right about the Angels being an outlier but only in the sense of the volume that they just threw on the pile. 

Clevinger with the White Sox is a pretty nice puppy for some playoff bound pitching staff looking for a basset hound. 

This feels more than a one-off to me.  

I mentioned this earlier. If I was the Twins... I would have done the same thing to Forsythe. The expiring contract player serves no purpose on a team not going to the playoffs. Forsythe was serving no purpose for us. I would have also sent Simmons a float in August of 2021. And... And... I absolutely would not have signed Matt Belisle in 2017. 

The Angels releasing this much talent may be a one off with the luxury tax and qualifying offer compensation for Ohtani as legitimate factors... but... I can't help but think that the Angels... just may have shown everyone a better way to manage expiring assets.

And of course... if it's the Angels showing us a better way... they did that by accident.    

Rob Manfred and Co. are praying this is an outlier event. If not, like you said, this will continued to be (ab)used as a way to manage expiring assets. Do you proactively patch this loophole in the offseason? Or wait for something dramatic like this happening again? 

[RaoulDuke]

Twins should, and I think would, be happy to spend a bit to add Moore or Lopez.  Maybe Moore's price tag scares off some we have a chance teams.  

Giolito might be an interesting gamble for the pen, he hasn't been great and won't be thrilled with a pen role but if he just lets it fly for an inning or two????

Lefty masher could certainly be upgraded as well.  Luplow has been ok, and most of these guys are somewhere in that range of player, but why not take a chance if they think its an upgrade.

Price shouldn't be a factor its not like they are in the luxury tax range, hopefully a useful player or two drops to them.  

[darin617]

23 hours ago, cmoss84 said:

Angel fans are pissed because of prospects they gave up to get these guys...not about the $. Fans have given up from a plethora of bone headed moves by Artie.

They had no choice to try to push. Unless they wanted to give up and trade Ohtani, even though they were still in the hunt.

[darin617]

13 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Rob Manfred and Co. are praying this is an outlier event. If not, like you said, this will continued to be (ab)used as a way to manage expiring assets. Do you proactively patch this loophole in the offseason? Or wait for something dramatic like this happening again? 

Teams still have to deal with waiver priority. It's not like they are automatically free agents. 

The system isn't broken. 

[Vanimal46]

11 minutes ago, darin617 said:

Teams still have to deal with waiver priority. It's not like they are automatically free agents. 

The system isn't broken. 

We will see what happens tomorrow. If i were the Marlins or Reds I’d pick up all of the pitching available. 

[twins_89]

1 hour ago, Azviking101 said:

Giants are officially behind the twins in waiver order now and we should all be cheering on the dbacks tonight. 

I think by losing today the Twins guaranteed they would be ahead of the Diamondbacks and Red Sox. 

From mlbtraderumors:

"Boston, Minnesota and Arizona could swap places in waiver priority tonight. When multiple clubs have the same record, priority goes to the team in the same league as the team that put the player on waivers. Within leagues, priority goes to the team that had the worse record in prior seasons. If they all have the same record going into tomorrow, the order would go Minnesota (worse record than the Red Sox in 2021) – Boston – Arizona."

[Brandon]

On 8/29/2023 at 4:55 PM, Riverbrian said:

I have thought about this sort of thing for quite some time and wondered why we haven't seen something like this sooner. 

Logan Forsythe for example. After the Dozier trade we got Forsythe back in the deal. He was a pending free agent... we were out of contention so he served no purpose for the present and none for the future.

We should have just let him go after he was included in the deal. That was 2018... 5 years later... teams are finally listening to me. 😁

 

I think Forsythe was to help take back cash in the deal and have a place holder at 2nd base for us for the rest of the season.  had value just not long term value.  

[SteveLV]

I actually like this rule, but I do agree that once a team is awarded a single player, they should revert to the back of the line.

It sucks for the Angels, trading 4 good prospects and then a couple weeks later letting these guys go for free with no compensation except money and, possibly, a higher comp pick if Ohtani walks. Brutal.  

[Riverbrian]

13 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

Rob Manfred and Co. are praying this is an outlier event. If not, like you said, this will continued to be (ab)used as a way to manage expiring assets. Do you proactively patch this loophole in the offseason? Or wait for something dramatic like this happening again? 

Proactively. Immediately. ASAP. This many off of one single team may not happen again... but, the quality of the free puppy has the potential to go up if the player isn't eligible for a qualifying offer.  

The Angels screwed up as badly as humanly possible at the July deadline. But, what they did yesterday was pretty smart. Bad for baseball but smart. The expiring contract on a team not going to the playoffs does no good for the present and no good for the future. 

It should be an easy agreement. If the players union is truly concerned about tanking. I don't believe they are but the marketing/public relations department of the players union sure let everyone know that they were against tanking during the CBA negotiations that they took public. 

If the players union is truly against tanking... this is a whole new level of tanking... this is the tanking of tanking.

This is tanking without getting anything for it. 

 

[Riverbrian]

4 hours ago, Brandon said:

I think Forsythe was to help take back cash in the deal and have a place holder at 2nd base for us for the rest of the season.  had value just not long term value.  

I agree that Forsythe was probably included in the trade to balance the financial side of the deal. 

It's the placeholder part that I strongly disagree with. I'm not saying the front office didn't see Forsythe as a place holder or even a late season audition for next year in case they wanted to try and sign him. 

But... I strongly disagree with any reasoning for such place holding. Forsythe had no present or future value and he just took a spot for anybody who had at least future value. 

 

[Riverbrian]

10 hours ago, Azviking101 said:

Literally all they would have had to do was put in a clause that if a team makes a successful claim they move to the back of the waiver order. Pretty simple and makes too much sense. I don’t see how anyone would have opposed that. But they didn’t even think about it 

On a tube of Preparation H it says "Not for Oral Use". 

The manufacturer of Preparation H never imagined that someone would eat the product. 

One day they got a letter. 

"Dear Preparation H,

I ate this whole dang tube". 

At that point, they realized that something must be done.

 

 

[Riverbrian]

52 minutes ago, SteveLV said:

It sucks for the Angels, trading 4 good prospects and then a couple weeks later letting these guys go for free with no compensation except money and, possibly, a higher comp pick if Ohtani walks. Brutal.  

[chpettit19]

13 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Agreed about the Angels... OMG. It has to be the handiwork of Moreno. No GM would do what they just did. It actually hurts me to think that this organization went from possibly adding a couple of top 100 prospects for the rental of Ohtani to giving up 4 of their top 30 prospects instead and then just put the players they acquired for those prospects into a free puppy box. 

I also think you are right about the Angels being an outlier but only in the sense of the volume that they just threw on the pile. 

Clevinger with the White Sox is a pretty nice puppy for some playoff bound pitching staff looking for a basset hound. 

This feels more than a one-off to me.  

I mentioned this earlier. If I was the Twins... I would have done the same thing to Forsythe. The expiring contract player serves no purpose on a team not going to the playoffs. Forsythe was serving no purpose for us. I would have also sent Simmons a float in August of 2021. And... And... I absolutely would not have signed Matt Belisle in 2017. 

The Angels releasing this much talent may be a one off with the luxury tax and qualifying offer compensation for Ohtani as legitimate factors... but... I can't help but think that the Angels... just may have shown everyone a better way to manage expiring assets.

And of course... if it's the Angels showing us a better way... they did that by accident.    

Oh I'm sure teams will continue to drop single guys here and there in the future. But most of them are going to be "eh" type players. Carrasco and Bader types. But those guys aren't swinging playoff races. But most teams will want more than salary relief, they'll want prospects. So they trade their truly valuable players at the deadline. I'm just saying I don't see a wave of waived players coming every year. There aren't that many guys that playoff teams will truly want that teams will hold past the deadline just to cut a month later hoping somebody eats a mil for them.

Clevinger is actually a really interesting case to see if someone eats the 5 mil or whatever it'll actually cost them. I assume they're not allowed to reach out to him about picking up his option before he's officially claimed by someone so the White Sox are hoping someone claims him knowing he's likely opting out of his end of the mutual option and you're paying him 4 mil next year, too. Will be interesting to see if teams are willing to pay that price for a month+ of someone. That'll change things far more than what the Angels did, I'd think.

[jorgenswest]

I think the benefit to the Angels is the improved pick (4th to 2nd) for Ohtani they will get by reducing their salary level. MLB can fix this by using setting the trade deadline dats as the one that determines the luxury tax level. Additionally they make make the waiving team responsible for remaining salary for any major leaguer rostered on the deadline. That should take away the key motivations for releasing players. There will still be players waived if they are a clubhouse issue or the team wants to give a prospect time but those are baseball motivations and should remain.

[Riverbrian]

3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Oh I'm sure teams will continue to drop single guys here and there in the future. But most of them are going to be "eh" type players. Carrasco and Bader types. But those guys aren't swinging playoff races. But most teams will want more than salary relief, they'll want prospects. So they trade their truly valuable players at the deadline. I'm just saying I don't see a wave of waived players coming every year. There aren't that many guys that playoff teams will truly want that teams will hold past the deadline just to cut a month later hoping somebody eats a mil for them.

Clevinger is actually a really interesting case to see if someone eats the 5 mil or whatever it'll actually cost them. I assume they're not allowed to reach out to him about picking up his option before he's officially claimed by someone so the White Sox are hoping someone claims him knowing he's likely opting out of his end of the mutual option and you're paying him 4 mil next year, too. Will be interesting to see if teams are willing to pay that price for a month+ of someone. That'll change things far more than what the Angels did, I'd think.

Maybe... this is going to be a learning process for both you and I.

I am equally intrigued to see what happens and disgusted by how bad this could potentially be for baseball. I'm excited and sad at the same time. 

Right now in my mind, simply not being eligible for the QO and draft pick compensation could place a potentially big name into the free puppy box. 

Teams fall out of contention during the month of August every year. Teams may not be ready to sell in July but a bad month of August will change that thinking.  

Just for fun... actually not fun... but for the purpose of conversation. Let's imagine the 2023 Twins out of contention this year after a horrible August. (You see what I mean by "Not Fun"). 

Who are the expiring contracts? 

Sonny Gray

Joey Gallo

Michael A. Taylor

Kenta Maeda

Donovan Salano

Tyler Mahle

Dylan Floro

Emilio Pagan

Kepler and Polanco could be included if they don't want to pick up options. 

I'm not sure but Sonny Gray is perhaps the only player the Twins would offer the 20 million QO to. 

The rest can be released by the Twins because there is no future for them in Minnesota and it makes sense to get rid of them because all of those 26/40 man spots can be given to players with a possible future with the Twins. Chris Williams, Stevenson, Keirsay, Prato, Martin. 

Mahle and Gallo will probably be of no interest to anyone but the rest could land somewhere. Maeda could be a game changer, Taylor will be an improvement. 

Then factor in the money... 50 Million in salary right there. What is the percentage of that on August 29? 

Then factor in... any team that fell out of contention in August can do the same thing.

Then factor in... That a single team gets to grab as many players as they want from all the teams who are operating this way. 

And I'm saying that every team should operate that way if the rules allow it because if you are out of contention an expiring contract is in the way. 

I find this whole thing fascinating.  

 

 

    

[chpettit19]

38 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Maybe... this is going to be a learning process for both you and I.

I am equally intrigued to see what happens and disgusted by how bad this could potentially be for baseball. I'm excited and sad at the same time. 

Right now in my mind, simply not being eligible for the QO and draft pick compensation could place a potentially big name into the free puppy box. 

Teams fall out of contention during the month of August every year. Teams may not be ready to sell in July but a bad month of August will change that thinking.  

Just for fun... actually not fun... but for the purpose of conversation. Let's imagine the 2023 Twins out of contention this year after a horrible August. (You see what I mean by "Not Fun"). 

Who are the expiring contracts? 

Sonny Gray

Joey Gallo

Michael A. Taylor

Kenta Maeda

Donovan Salano

Tyler Mahle

Dylan Floro

Emilio Pagan

Kepler and Polanco could be included if they don't want to pick up options. 

I'm not sure but Sonny Gray is perhaps the only player the Twins would offer the 20 million QO to. 

The rest can be released by the Twins because there is no future for them in Minnesota and it makes sense to get rid of them them because all of those 26/40 man spots can be given to players with a possible future with the Twins. Chris Williams, Stevenson, Keirsay, Prato, Martin. 

Mahle and Gallo will probably be of no interest to anyone but the rest could land somewhere. Maeda could be a game changer, Taylor will be an improvement. 

Then factor in the money... 50 Million in salary right there. What is the percentage of that on August 29? 

Then factor in that... any team that fell out of contention in August can do the same thing.

Then factor in that... That a single team gets to grab as many players as they want from all the teams who operating this way. 

And I'm saying that every team should operate that way if the rules allow it because if you are out of contention an expiring contract is in the way. 

I find this whole thing fascinating.  

 

 

    

I also find it fascinating, and will be quite surprised if they don't change the waiver claim rules to move teams to the back of the order after they claim someone to avoid one team being able to claim everyone in this sort of situation. 

The problem with saying "if the Twins completely tanked in August look at all the guys they could waive" is that if the Twins tanked in August it's likely that a number of those guys would be the reason why they tanked, and thus, nobody would claim them. And we already know the Twins don't cut veterans at the end of the year to look at young guys. It's a pretty universal complaint around here. But, yes, other teams could do that. 

For a whole bunch of teams to jump on this bandwagon, and be able to waive numerous players like you're suggesting the Twins could, you need a whole bunch of teams to tank AND have numerous players playing well meaning other teams would want them AND have those players be on expiring deals AND have those players not be good enough for a QO. How many teams match that description? It's a pretty fine needle to thread to think you're a playoff contender at the start of August, have numerous players on expiring deals playing well enough to get claimed, but not well enough to get a QO, and then completely fall apart by the end of August. 

It will be really interesting to see how today turns out, and what teams do moving forward. But I think there's a reason the non-Angels teams only waived a guy or 2. I think that's much more likely the norm than teams wiping out 25% of their roster in 1 day. You're right, though, we'll all learn together how teams handle this moving forward.

[Eris]

42 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I also find it fascinating, and will be quite surprised if they don't change the waiver claim rules to move teams to the back of the order after they claim someone to avoid one team being able to claim everyone in this sort of situation. 

These waiver acquisitions are not a free lunch and involve roster management decisions that can impact the playoffs or possibly future talent. Moving someone to the 60 day IL is the only move that doesn’t involve potentially losing a player. 
 

Theoretically let’s say the Twins (or any other team) puts in for 6 waiver claims and is awarded all 6.  What do they do. They could move several players to the 60 day IL, maybe release a few from the 40 man roster. I suppose they could release the newly acquired waiver claim (is this allowed). The acquiring team would be on the hook for the remainder of the contract, but they also prevent another team from putting that player on the playoff roster (as these transactions are taking place on the last day to have 40 man additions eligible for the playoff roster). 
 

A possible outcome is that the few most desirable waiver claims go to worst team at this time (e.g., Cincinnati) that team gets hot and goes deep into the playoffs. 

[Riverbrian]

32 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I also find it fascinating, and will be quite surprised if they don't change the waiver claim rules to move teams to the back of the order after they claim someone to avoid one team being able to claim everyone in this sort of situation. 

The problem with saying "if the Twins completely tanked in August look at all the guys they could waive" is that if the Twins tanked in August it's likely that a number of those guys would be the reason why they tanked, and thus, nobody would claim them. And we already know the Twins don't cut veterans at the end of the year to look at young guys. It's a pretty universal complaint around here. But, yes, other teams could do that. 

For a whole bunch of teams to jump on this bandwagon, and be able to waive numerous players like you're suggesting the Twins could, you need a whole bunch of teams to tank AND have numerous players playing well meaning other teams would want them AND have those players be on expiring deals AND have those players not be good enough for a QO. How many teams match that description? It's a pretty fine needle to thread to think you're a playoff contender at the start of August, have numerous players on expiring deals playing well enough to get claimed, but not well enough to get a QO, and then completely fall apart by the end of August. 

It will be really interesting to see how today turns out, and what teams do moving forward. But I think there's a reason the non-Angels teams only waived a guy or 2. I think that's much more likely the norm than teams wiping out 25% of their roster in 1 day. You're right, though, we'll all learn together how teams handle this moving forward.

If I was in charge of the Twins... (I Should be 😉 😄). If I was in charge of the Twins and out of contention after a bad August so I missed out on selling in July. I would without a 2nd thought... Jettison every expiring contract that I couldn't get draft compensation for. Yeah, the Twins haven't done that in the few chances that they have had but IMO they should and a new precedent has just been set. 

Look at the aftermath of the current rosters of this years participants in the free puppy giveaway. Angels, Yankees, White Sox, Mets, Tigers. The expiring contracts are all GONE. The Yankees, White Sox, Mets and Tigers got rid of expiring contracts to get ready for the future... they just didn't have as many as the Angels but they are all drained of expiring contracts. That's five teams right there who did the same thing.    

The Padres could have participated but didn't. Snell and Hader are both extremely likely for a QO and therefore draft pick compensation. But... in the case of the Padres... what if they remember that they are a small market team and have already spent more than they could afford, In that case... the off chance that Snell and Hader take the QO could put Snell and Hader into the free puppy box. I know that is a long shot but it can't be discounted. Now the Marlins get Snell, Hader, Moore, Lopez and Grichuk if they want them.

The league was not ready for this.  

Once you are out... the present doesn't matter... the future does so begin the prep for it immediately and save some cash in the meantime. IMO... The Angels finally did a smart thing in my opinion after a really really really really stupid July. 

I think the free puppy giveaway is here to stay unless changes are made. Teams are tanking for FREE now. 

You gotta love baseball. How can you not.