The Yankees' Change at Hitting Coach Has Interesting Implications for Twins

[chpettit19]

9 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

I never caped up for Nelly, my initial suggestion was Molitor.  You’re getting stuck on the example, not the idea. Of course it has to be the right person, but as the article points out, what are the options available?

And Molitor has actually coached so that'd make more sense. I'm stuck on the Cruz example because that's the one people were using, I commented on, and you responded to. But my overall point is that our suggestions, just like when they hire FO personnel, and the vast majority of coaches, are completely and totally uneducated. Mollie's managed, and been a coach before. Assuming the FO isn't completely incompetent they actually know what his ability to do this stuff is. People just throwing out random former hitters and saying they'd be able to fix things isn't based on anything real. There's a huge difference in being able to be a good hitter, and being able to help 13 individual guys be good hitters.

[Major League Ready]

12 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Oh come on, observed what? Have you ever heard him talking with other hitters about that stuff? We have no real way of knowing anything at all about his ability to do anything at all when it comes to helping other hitters hit. He may be great at it. He may be horrible. We have literally no way of knowing that.

Spot on!  Can you imagine making a firing decision in an actual business without actually observing performance and with little direct knowledge of someone's skillset and the actual body of work.  I understand people are frustrated but the need to punish someone seems more vengeful than it is an educated assessment.  None of us has the combination of subject matter expertise and direct knowledge to provide an information opinion.

[chpettit19]

9 hours ago, dxpavelka said:

Bringing in Cruz would be a super move, just not as hitting coach (at this point in his coaching career).  Let's be honest this team hasn't been the same since guys like Rosario, Cruz & Sano have been gone.  No fire, no heart.  Cruz' mere presence in the locker room would help with that.

I don't know that I agree with that either. I don't like talking about player's "heart." Judging outward emotion during 7 second clips of a player here and there is not a good way to measure "heart." I assume by "fire" you mean high energy, outward showing emotion. Lewis brings plenty of that. Buxton does as well. Cruz and Sano are not at all guys I think of when it comes to that kind of stuff. Rosario definitely had more outward emotion. 

Cruz's mere presence in the locker room didn't help San Diego this year. Or Washington last year. He very well may be a wonderful addition, but I have no reason to believe that's a sure thing. Every player in that clubhouse can talk hitting. Correa has been touted for years for his ability to take analytics data and translate it to the field. He's won championships. He brings fire and heart. Why isn't his mere presence helping anything?

I just think people interpret what they want to out of what they see on TV, and feel about certain players. Can we all suggest guys we think would be helpful? Of course. But talking with such certainty about how people we know nothing about would do in improving this lineup is too far for me. Josh Donaldson is incredibly knowledgeable about hitting. There's great segments from MLB Network out there about him breaking down his swing, etc. It's incredible to watch. He has a ton of fire and heart. There's clips of him working with the young hitters in spring training when he was here. Should we look to bring him back after he retires?

[Nine of twelve]

Ted Williams, who was probably the greatest hitter of all time, analyzed EVERYTHING. If he were playing today he would know and understand every analytic available and successfully put all of it into practice. Tony Oliva was great also, but he was almost the exact opposite. Simply see the ball and hit it.

Neither of these players ever needed a hitting coach. For Williams, it was because he knew how to do on his own everything a coach would have told him to do. For Oliva, it was because he already did everything right naturally. I wish every player could be like one of those two.

 

[Whitey333]

My point exactly as well.  I have nothing against Popkins other than the fact he's never played major league baseball.  This fascination with putting computer analytic geeks in charge of coaching major league players is ludicrous.  How can Mr. Computer know what it's like facing a 100 mph fastball if he's never seen one?  Analytics is fine as an aid in player preparation and development but shouldn't be used as the main source of running your team.

[saviking]

I'd move on to shake things up. Don't we have someone in our minor league system that could fill in until next year. How could it be any worse than what we are doing now?

[chpettit19]

24 minutes ago, Whitey333 said:

My point exactly as well.  I have nothing against Popkins other than the fact he's never played major league baseball.  This fascination with putting computer analytic geeks in charge of coaching major league players is ludicrous.  How can Mr. Computer know what it's like facing a 100 mph fastball if he's never seen one?  Analytics is fine as an aid in player preparation and development but shouldn't be used as the main source of running your team.

He didn't make the majors, but he did play AA ball. Let's not act like he's just some random computer programmer they grabbed off the street to write computer models. He's played baseball at an incredibly high level. He's faced 100 mph fastballs. You're mischaracterizing who he is, and what he does.

[John Belinski]

I just do not understand how someone can teach a subject(hitting) that they have never been good at? How do you teach math to a person if you are not good at math? How do you teach a person how to hit a golf ball if you are not good at hitting golf balls. There certainly several retired baseball players who were good hitters that would be willing to help Twin's batters for the next 2 or 3 months, but do not want full time job as hitting coach. The Twins can then hire a new hitting coach in the off season. Based on how poorly the Twin's batters are doing it seems like a different hitting coach is needed. The new hitting coach certainly could not do any worse than the current coach.

[Trov]

I think hitting coaches at the MLB level should be more on just small tweaks to players, and should not look to have full change in approaches of players.  I think those changes should be done in the minors, and at the majors you need to fix little things or make little adjustments when pitchers have adjusted to them. I think having a full change of hitting philosophy midseason will also be hard to do.  I agree the Twins need to change what they are doing, but asking for a full 180 on what they were doing will be hard.

[PseudoSABR]

What's Joe Mauer up to?

[USNMCPO]

My biggest concern is that there does not seem to be a viable plan for how to get out of this quagmire. Age old remedies seem to be discarded. The number of called strike threes is awful. Protect the plate when you have two strikes. Just make contact. Spray the ball around to all fields. Quit guessing. Let the ball  get deeper before swinging. Has no one on the Twins ever heard these?

[Larry Janisewski]

17 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I don't know who should be the new hitting coach. 

But this much I DO know. When

-outcomes are this putrid,

-the manager goes on a rant about how things have to change, and

-the hitters decide not inviting the hitting coach to the hitter's meeting is a potential solution,

it's long past time for a change. 

I'm still waiting to see the changes Baldelli was talking about.

[Larry Janisewski]

14 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

Crazy idea.  Trevor Plouffe.  From his comments when broadcasting he seemed to have some insights on the problems.

The same from Morneau.

[Jocko87]

5 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

And Molitor has actually coached so that'd make more sense. I'm stuck on the Cruz example because that's the one people were using, I commented on, and you responded to. But my overall point is that our suggestions, just like when they hire FO personnel, and the vast majority of coaches, are completely and totally uneducated. Mollie's managed, and been a coach before. Assuming the FO isn't completely incompetent they actually know what his ability to do this stuff is. People just throwing out random former hitters and saying they'd be able to fix things isn't based on anything real. There's a huge difference in being able to be a good hitter, and being able to help 13 individual guys be good hitters.

Yup, and from my vantage point the piece that's missing is the old school guy. Someone needs to be stealing signs, seeing tipped pitches and that kind of thing. The data is great but it needs context to be used properly.

[Jocko87]

5 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

Spot on!  Can you imagine making a firing decision in an actual business without actually observing performance and with little direct knowledge of someone's skillset and the actual body of work.  I understand people are frustrated but the need to punish someone seems more vengeful than it is an educated assessment.  None of us has the combination of subject matter expertise and direct knowledge to provide an information opinion.

Again, I'll expect the same vigor towards the folks who claim the front office tells the hitters what to do (some even in this thread). We have nothing that tells us anything remotely like that but somehow it's gospel.

Just be thankful some people have the training and experience to read between the lines and are willing to share on this forum. My comments are always aimed towards what's likely rather than the fantic fire everyone. My experience happens to be very applicable to this situation.

[chpettit19]

12 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

Yup, and from my vantage point the piece that's missing is the old school guy. Someone needs to be stealing signs, seeing tipped pitches and that kind of thing. The data is great but it needs context to be used properly.

I don't disagree that those things are needed, I'm just not sure they aren't already happening. Pretty sure we have a guy in there who's pretty famous for sign stealing. This is not a young team. None of them are Cruz's age, but this is a veteran team with a coaching staff full of guys who've been around a while. Correa, Buxton, Solano, Kepler, Vazquez, Gallo, Farmer, MAT, and Polanco are legit veteran players. Everyone can always learn more, and improve on their skills, but if you need another guy to come in to teach those 9 guys what to look for on a baseball field you're doomed anyways. Sonny Gray and Kenta are veterans who should be able to help them, too. 

If Rocco and Tingler aren't able to help guide Popkins in his role then they need to go because they can't do their jobs. If the FO can't see that those 2 can't guide the guys under them then they need to go because they can't do their jobs. Just hiring more and more coaches/advisors/"translators"/whatever you want to call it isn't an answer to me. If the guys in the org can't do their jobs replace them with someone who can.

[USAFChief]

Whether or not Molitor would be a good hitting coach--or would want the job--there's no chance he's put in that dugout as long as Rocco is managing. 

You don't undermine the current manager by putting the former one in the dugout. That would be a terrible position to put Rocco in. It would be viewed by everyone as a direct threat to Rocco's job.

[chpettit19]

5 hours ago, John Belinski said:

I just do not understand how someone can teach a subject(hitting) that they have never been good at? How do you teach math to a person if you are not good at math? How do you teach a person how to hit a golf ball if you are not good at hitting golf balls. There certainly several retired baseball players who were good hitters that would be willing to help Twin's batters for the next 2 or 3 months, but do not want full time job as hitting coach. The Twins can then hire a new hitting coach in the off season. Based on how poorly the Twin's batters are doing it seems like a different hitting coach is needed. The new hitting coach certainly could not do any worse than the current coach.

Math and hitting are not comparable subjects. Hitting is a physical task that can be broken down and assessed by anyone. Math is a mental subject that you have to be able to do to teach it. I assume you're not a former major leaguer, but I'm pretty sure you can look at Gallo's swing and pick out a couple problems with it. I would bet every dollar I ever make for the rest of my life that there's a number of things you understand, and could explain how to do, but can't physically do it.

Whole bunch of coaches in every sport weren't great at playing those sports, but know the game well. Knowing/teaching is not the same as doing when it comes to physical tasks. Not to mention the levels of "good." Popkins was a AA hitter. That's a pretty good hitter in the grand scheme of things. Barry Bonds was a pretty good hitter, but a terrible hitting coach. Mark McGwire as well. Being a retired baseball player doesn't make you capable of being a hitting coach. Rocco was an incredible baseball player. Plenty of people find him to be a less than stellar MLB coach/manager. They aren't the same thing.

[dxpavelka]

9 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

I have no idea if Trevor Plouffe would be a good hitting coach.  However, the difference between him and those who have commented here is that he has actually played MLB. 

Doesn't stop most of them from thinking they can do a better job than the management.

[dxpavelka]

9 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't know that I agree with that either. I don't like talking about player's "heart." Judging outward emotion during 7 second clips of a player here and there is not a good way to measure "heart." I assume by "fire" you mean high energy, outward showing emotion. Lewis brings plenty of that. Buxton does as well. Cruz and Sano are not at all guys I think of when it comes to that kind of stuff. Rosario definitely had more outward emotion. 

Cruz's mere presence in the locker room didn't help San Diego this year. Or Washington last year. He very well may be a wonderful addition, but I have no reason to believe that's a sure thing. Every player in that clubhouse can talk hitting. Correa has been touted for years for his ability to take analytics data and translate it to the field. He's won championships. He brings fire and heart. Why isn't his mere presence helping anything?

I just think people interpret what they want to out of what they see on TV, and feel about certain players. Can we all suggest guys we think would be helpful? Of course. But talking with such certainty about how people we know nothing about would do in improving this lineup is too far for me. Josh Donaldson is incredibly knowledgeable about hitting. There's great segments from MLB Network out there about him breaking down his swing, etc. It's incredible to watch. He has a ton of fire and heart. There's clips of him working with the young hitters in spring training when he was here. Should we look to bring him back after he retires?

 The folks that run the local baseball club don't seem to like acknowledging anything about "heart" either.  Emotion has little to do with it.  It's more about doing things on the baseball field  that can't be measured by the  almighty metrics.  Getting big hits in big situations, coming thru when the count is not in your favor.  Having a willingness to sacrifice their body if it means a win for the team.  Putting the success of the team above all else.  Leadership on and off the field.  Expects perfection of himself at every moment.  If our guys play like that we whine because they might get hurt.  Correa is only one guy.  This team is ONE game under .500.  I can only imagine where they'd be without Correa.

 

[D.C Twins]

There is literally no risk in bringing in firing Popkins and giving someone else a chance. The offense is a failed state. 

[chpettit19]

3 hours ago, dxpavelka said:

 The folks that run the local baseball club don't seem to like acknowledging anything about "heart" either.  Emotion has little to do with it.  It's more about doing things on the baseball field  that can't be measured by the  almighty metrics.  Getting big hits in big situations, coming thru when the count is not in your favor.  Having a willingness to sacrifice their body if it means a win for the team.  Putting the success of the team above all else.  Leadership on and off the field.  Expects perfection of himself at every moment.  If our guys play like that we whine because they might get hurt.  Correa is only one guy.  This team is ONE game under .500.  I can only imagine where they'd be without Correa.

 

Yeah, I'm just not going to speak to the "heart" of any player. You're more than welcome to feel however you want to about that, but I'm not going to speculate about what anyone is putting in or sacrificing on or off the field.

[USAFChief]

FWIW, the Yankees are only averaging 2 runs per game since making the switch. 

[John Belinski]

20 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Math and hitting are not comparable subjects. Hitting is a physical task that can be broken down and assessed by anyone. Math is a mental subject that you have to be able to do to teach it. I assume you're not a former major leaguer, but I'm pretty sure you can look at Gallo's swing and pick out a couple problems with it. I would bet every dollar I ever make for the rest of my life that there's a number of things you understand, and could explain how to do, but can't physically do it.

Whole bunch of coaches in every sport weren't great at playing those sports, but know the game well. Knowing/teaching is not the same as doing when it comes to physical tasks. Not to mention the levels of "good." Popkins was a AA hitter. That's a pretty good hitter in the grand scheme of things. Barry Bonds was a pretty good hitter, but a terrible hitting coach. Mark McGwire as well. Being a retired baseball player doesn't make you capable of being a hitting coach. Rocco was an incredible baseball player. Plenty of people find him to be a less than stellar MLB coach/manager. They aren't the same thing.

Rocco was an incredible baseball player. I guess what you think is a incredible baseball player and what I think sure is different. A player going to the Baseball Hall of Fame is a incredible player and Rocco sure isn't going there.

[ashbury]

21 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Not to mention the levels of "good." Popkins was a AA hitter. That's a pretty good hitter in the grand scheme of things. Barry Bonds was a pretty good hitter, but a terrible hitting coach. Mark McGwire as well. Being a retired baseball player doesn't make you capable of being a hitting coach. Rocco was an incredible baseball player.

 

1 hour ago, John Belinski said:

Rocco was an incredible baseball player. I guess what you think is a incredible baseball player and what I think sure is different. A player going to the Baseball Hall of Fame is a incredible player and Rocco sure isn't going there.

I think a gift for understatement can sometimes mislead when it is abandoned without warning, and obscure the actual point.