Twins 3, Red Sox 9: Lopez and Offense Sputters while Paxton Deals Twins Loss

[twinzcynic]

I think it's too small of a sample size to make any statements on this game and season and trade. Pablo Lopez's expected numbers are really good (who cares about the real outcomes) and in no way will we regret that trade. Arraez having 5 hits for the 3rd time this month is only luck AND definitely isn't entertaining. We're not here for entertainment or real world wins, we're here for good expected stats. That's why I love the new Twinz Way (formerly Twins Way).

- Falvine Defenders

[wabene]

3 minutes ago, twinzcynic said:

I think it's too small of a sample size to make any statements on this game and season and trade. Pablo Lopez's expected numbers are really good (who cares about the real outcomes) and in no way will we regret that trade. Arraez having 5 hits for the 3rd time this month is only luck AND definitely isn't entertaining. We're not here for entertainment or real world wins, we're here for good expected stats. That's why I love the new Twinz Way (formerly Twins Way).

- Falvine Defenders

Yep, that's cynical and pretty funny too, lol. What's the significance of the Z? 

[RickOShea]

The difference between the Twins and let's say, several other MLB teams:  Falvey walks around the concourse and the fans nod, high five him, or whatever.  On another team, Falvey never leaves his private booth or even goes to the game,  

[Whitey333]

Great comments by all.  Aaraez had 5 hits again last night.  Not here to bum rap the trade but we did trade a batting champion that plays everyday for a starting pitcher that is historically is , and continues to be, a 500 pitcher at best.  Then we extend him to a big contract.  Very strange indeed.  By the way Aaraez has more hits than our "superstars"  Correa and Buxton combined.

[Swing Batter-Batter]

10 hours ago, Rosterman said:

What's with all the triples of late against the Twins? Fielding issues? Throwing to wrong base (home?) or cutoff guy?

I'm thinking that if they would actually play the same 3 guys in the outfield, even 2 or 3 games in a row, those mistakes might improve.

[Swing Batter-Batter]

9 hours ago, Beast said:

I mean, look at the pitching chart above.  We have 3 serviceable relievers right now.  Duran, Stewart, and Jax.  They’ve collectively thrown fewer pitches and have have only 1 more appearance than a guy (Moran) who physically can’t throw an effective strike over the plate (4 appearances and 38 pitches for the former three vs. 3 appearances and 48 pitches for Moran).

You can’t make this up.  This is off the rails, out of control, lunacy.  If I’m the commissioner, I open an investigation into whether they are actively throwing games for betting purposes.  They can’t possibly be this incompetent.  

Oh, but they can be this incompetent. Rocco needs a new laptop and upper management won't approve the expenditure.

[AceWrigley]

So I guess we're saying that Eddie Julien is a lot like Michael Jackson was, wearing one glove on his hand for no apparent reason.

[chpettit19]

3 hours ago, bighat said:

Anyone still think the Twins are so close and should trade some prospects for a bat and a bullpen arm? 

As the above Tweet so brutally pointed out, they're the 3rd worst team in baseball over the past 1.5 months. 

 

 

To be fair, the above tweet shows they're the 3rd worst team in the American league over the past 1.5 months.

[twinzcynic]

1 hour ago, wabene said:

Yep, that's cynical and pretty funny too, lol. What's the significance of the Z? 

The Twins Way used to be known by boring hallmarks of sound defense, always looking to take the extra base, and fighting off 2 strike pitches. The current philosophy has swapped those out for the much superior 3 true outcomes, hence the Twinz way.

[MABB1959]

I listened to his post-game interview and his lack of concern about strike-outs and the horrible hitting was maddening.  He made it seem like the are one game away from turning this around!

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

I listened to his post-game interview and his lack of concern about strike-outs and the horrible hitting was maddening.  He made it seem like the are one game away from turning this around!

What would you like him to say? He's been saying they're playing terribly for weeks. He's been saying the strikeouts are a problem, and if you're going to K a lot you need to hit the ball hard to counterbalance it for weeks. What else is there to say?

I couldn't care less if they fire Rocco today, but what exactly is it you think a manager should be saying in pressers besides "we're not playing well, but we're trying to find ways to get better. Everyone in here knows this isn't good enough, and we're all working to improve?"

[MABB1959]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

What would you like him to say? He's been saying they're playing terribly for weeks. He's been saying the strikeouts are a problem, and if you're going to K a lot you need to hit the ball hard to counterbalance it for weeks. What else is there to say?

I couldn't care less if they fire Rocco today, but what exactly is it you think a manager should be saying in pressers besides "we're not playing well, but we're trying to find ways to get better. Everyone in here knows this isn't good enough, and we're all working to improve?"

I guess it would be better if the Pohlad's would do a press conference that addresses some of the frustration we are feeling.  Imagine how George Steinbrenner would have said or what he would have done by now.  Pretty sure Rocco and the FO would no longer be employed.  He wouldn't sugar coat the situation we are in.  

[chpettit19]

Just now, MABB1959 said:

I guess it would be better if the Pohlad's would do a press conference that addresses some of the frustration we are feeling.  Imagine how George Steinbrenner would have said or what he would have done by now.  Pretty sure Rocco and the FO would no longer be employed.  He wouldn't sugar coat the situation we are in.  

I don't disagree with that at all. Not that any of us would ever expect such a thing. The difference in expectations for owners is a huge part of organizations. The Pohlads and Steinbrenners have very different goals with their teams (or so it seems from the outside at least).

[USAFChief]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

"...Everyone in here knows this isn't good enough, and we're all working to improve?"

Are they? What are they doing, exactly?  Have they decided the "batting practice, take it or leave it" approach maybe isn't a good idea? Emphasized cutting down swings on some situations,.particularly with 2 strikes and runners on? Stop taking strike 1 so damn often? 

Has there been ANY appreciable change for the better? Or do we see double digit Ks just pile up, night after night?

I don't really think they're doing ANYthing. But so what if they are? Has it made ANY difference?

Results matter. 

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Are they? What are they doing, exactly?  Have they decided the "batting practice, take it or leave it" approach maybe isn't a good idea? Emphasized cutting down swings on some situations,.particularly with 2 strikes and runners on? Stop taking strike 1 so damn often? 

Has there been ANY appreciable change for the better? Or do we see double digit Ks just pile up, night after night?

I don't really think they're doing ANYthing. But so what if they are? Has it made ANY difference?

Results matter. 

That wasn't what I was talking about. I asked what the other poster wanted the manager to say to the media. They complained that he wasn't saying the right thing. I asked what exactly they thought the manager should say in this situation. Didn't say anything about what they're actually doing.

I wasn't suggesting anything contrary to your rant. We know we disagree with having to force major league players to take BP or fielding work. Whether or not the players are doing what's needed to improve tells me a lot about whether I want them on the team or not. I shouldn't have to babysit these guys. But I don't disagree that results matter. I'm fine with them firing everyone today. That wasn't what my post was about, though.

[TwinsDr2021]

27 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

What would you like him to say? He's been saying they're playing terribly for weeks. He's been saying the strikeouts are a problem, and if you're going to K a lot you need to hit the ball hard to counterbalance it for weeks. What else is there to say?

Maybe say they we are working on (or going to) going to back to some of the basics since striking out,playing terrible defense and making mental mistake is unacceptable We have tweaked (or going to) our training program so professional athletes aren't sore and tired after playing a game of baseball. How about saying the buck stops with me I am the manager I need to do a better job of managing and giving these players are better game plan.

But really what you need to say is that we are going to fix things.

[David Maro]

The SP has come down to earth and putting pressure on the BP. The manager spends most of his time looking down at his paper work hoping to find something. Watching the other manager,they are watching the play on the field 100% of the time. May need a Bud-Light boycott to get the point across. This team is unwatchable at this time. Buxton needs to back on IL and then go to St. Paul for rehab assignment. Bring Miranda up as DH to see if his bat has come around or not. Looks like he has resolved some of the issues he had earlier. If he fails that may show everyone that Popkin's is a problem.

[chpettit19]

8 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Maybe say they we are working on (or going to) going to back to some of the basics since striking out,playing terrible defense and making mental mistake is unacceptable We have tweaked (or going to) our training program so professional athletes aren't sore and tired after playing a game of baseball. How about saying the buck stops with me I am the manager I need to do a better job of managing and giving these players are better game plan.

But really what you need to say is that we are going to fix things.

Is that not what he has been saying for weeks? Does anything he really says actually matter? Does it make any of us feel better about this team if Rocco says the exact perfect thing in his pressers? It sure doesn't make me feel any different. He can say literally anything he wants about this team, and what they're doing, but all I care about is what actually happens on the field.

My point is that what Rocco says doesn't mean a single, gosh darn thing. Who cares? They've said all the things you're asking for at one time or another this season. Popkins went on the record and said he needs to give the hitters better game plans. Do you feel better since he said it? I just don't get why anyone cares what they say. It doesn't change what happened on the field.

[TwinsDr2021]

7 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Is that not what he has been saying for weeks? Does anything he really says actually matter? Does it make any of us feel better about this team if Rocco says the exact perfect thing in his pressers? It sure doesn't make me feel any different. He can say literally anything he wants about this team, and what they're doing, but all I care about is what actually happens on the field.

My point is that what Rocco says doesn't mean a single, gosh darn thing. Who cares? They've said all the things you're asking for at one time or another this season. Popkins went on the record and said he needs to give the hitters better game plans. Do you feel better since he said it? I just don't get why anyone cares what they say. It doesn't change what happened on the field.

I agree with you on, does it really matter what he says. As I have said before I haven't liked him as a manager from just about the start so, nope it doesn't matter what he says to me.

But many of TD has said this team doesn't play with heart and the  laissez-faire attitude of the manager just re-enforces that, and people don't want to think of their favorite team that way, so they are looking for something that disagrees with what their eyes are seeing.

What I would really like him to say and it might change my mind a tiny bit on him, maybe. 🤪

I sick and tired of our high prices veterans walking back to the dugout after watching another 3 three call or swinging a missing a pitch by two feet, it pisses me off watching professional outfielders throwing to the wrong damn base or missing the cut off. I am upset with our players walking/running around the bases like damn zombies. If these guys aren't going to act and play like professionals maybe we need to give others a shot at playing like professionals.

(I know him or any other manager wouldn't say this in 2023, but man wouldn't it be nice if they did every once in a while)

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I agree with you on, does it really matter what he says. As I have said before I haven't liked him as a manager from just about the start so, nope it doesn't matter what he says to me.

But many of TD has said this team doesn't play with heart and the  laissez-faire attitude of the manager just re-enforces that, and people don't want to think of their favorite team that way, so they are looking for something that disagrees with what their eyes are seeing.

What I would really like him to say and it might change my mind a tiny bit on him, maybe. 🤪

I sick and tired of our high prices veterans walking back to the dugout after watching another 3 three call or swinging a missing a pitch by two feet, it pisses me off watching professional outfielders throwing to the wrong damn base or missing the cut off. I am upset with our players walking/running around the bases like damn zombies. If these guys aren't going to act and play like professionals maybe we need to give others a shot at playing like professionals.

(I know him or any other manager wouldn't say this in 2023, but man wouldn't it be nice if they did every once in a while)

I get the want of fans to feel like the players, coaches, front office personnel, and owners have the same emotional responses as they do, but, honestly, no, it wouldn't be nice to me if Rocco, or anyone, did that every once in a while. Just not something I need, or think is useful. Unless that's what would motivate certain players on the team. And I don't know whether or not it would. I'd get nothing out of it, but it's Rocco's job to know his players, and what they respond to best. I don't think it's bad that other fans want it, but I don't need it, or particularly understand what it'd do for other fans. But we're all fans in our own way.

He "called out" Kepler the other week. By Rocco standards at least. I'm sure some fans enjoyed it. It did nothing for me, and clearly nothing for Kepler's play. I'm just of the belief that if you need to blast your players in the media to get them to throw to the right base, take better ABs, or just play better in general, they're probably not the right players. I don't think championship players need that stuff. I don't think they need to be forced to take BP, or fielding practice, when they need it. That's all minor league stuff to me. If you're graduating players to the bigs who don't know what base to throw to, can't take competitive ABs, or just play sound baseball, to me, it's your minor leagues that are failing. 

I don't generally like to speak to the amount of "heart" guys play with. I will speak on hustle, bad base running, missed cutoffs, Gallo throwing to home instead of keeping the double play intact, terrible approaches at the plate, etc., but I don't think any of us have nearly enough info to know what kind of "heart" guys have. I don't automatically correlate emotional outbursts to heart. That's certainly how some people show their heart, but it's also entirely possible for people to be enraged, and emotional about their play, without having to show it externally. That's all Rocco's, and the FO's, job. Is a guy just a naturally calm person, but putting in tons of "extra" work, busting his butt every play, and putting his all into things? Is a guy emotionally explosive and verbal about his feelings, but not putting in any "extra" work, busting his butt, or putting his all into things? That's what Rocco is paid to know, and inform the FO about. And, as a fan, I'm not going to assume I know the work guys are putting in based on their displays of emotion I happen to get shown on TV here and there.

Ober was very calm about being sent down. Gray is not always calm about getting pulled earlier than he likes. Are we sure Gray cares more, or has more "heart" than Ober? I'm not. That's why I just don't care what any of these guys say, and try not to speak too much about their "heart."

[MABB1959]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

That wasn't what I was talking about. I asked what the other poster wanted the manager to say to the media. They complained that he wasn't saying the right thing. I asked what exactly they thought the manager should say in this situation. Didn't say anything about what they're actually doing.

I wasn't suggesting anything contrary to your rant. We know we disagree with having to force major league players to take BP or fielding work. Whether or not the players are doing what's needed to improve tells me a lot about whether I want them on the team or not. I shouldn't have to babysit these guys. But I don't disagree that results matter. I'm fine with them firing everyone today. That wasn't what my post was about, though.

Statements like "this is unacceptable", calling out the veteran leaders making the big $$$.  I think maybe he is not allowed to express his true feelings?  But many fans are feeling like they think this is good enough or acceptable or even fixable.

[MABB1959]

Fun read both about Arraez and expectations that were/have been set.

 

"The last time the Marlins were 11 games over .500, they had a different name, uniform and ballpark. Hit machine Luis Arraez was playing Little League ball in San Felipe, Venezuela. Eury Pérez was 6 years old."

Luis Arraez gets five hits as Marlins win fifth straight (mlb.com)

 

 

 

[MABB1959]

3 hours ago, twinzcynic said:

I think it's too small of a sample size to make any statements on this game and season and trade. Pablo Lopez's expected numbers are really good (who cares about the real outcomes) and in no way will we regret that trade. Arraez having 5 hits for the 3rd time this month is only luck AND definitely isn't entertaining. We're not here for entertainment or real world wins, we're here for good expected stats. That's why I love the new Twinz Way (formerly Twins Way).

- Falvine Defenders

Are these numbers really that good?  Especially what we gave up for him:

	W	L	ERA	G	GS	SV	IP	SO	WHIP
2023 Regular Season	3	4	4.4	15	15	0	90	110	1.14
Career Regular Season	31	35	4.01	109	109	0	600	599	1.18

 

[MABB1959]

3 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

I am having a difficult time with the fact that Lopez is the only pitcher we have extended.  Since signing the contract he has looked terrible for the most part (I am trying not to mention who we traded for him) and I wonder what happened to the pitcher who looked so good to start the season.  His 4.40 era exceeds his career 4.01.  

Baseball Reference: 

Last 5 Games

 

• Glossary

Date	Tm		Opp	Result	App,Dec	DR	IP	H	R	ER	BB	SO	HR	HBP	WP	IBB	PO	BK	BF	Pit	Str	StL	StS	GB	FB	LD	PU	Unk	GmSc	IR	IS	WPA	aLI	cWPA	acLi	RE24
2023-06-19	MIN		BOS	L 3-9	GS-6, L	5	5.2	6	5	4	3	9	0	1	0	0	0	0	27	104	69	18	15	4	1	7	2	0	45.0			-0.113	1.23	-0.06%	1.13	-0.561
2023-06-13	MIN		MIL	W 7-5	GS-6	5	6.0	4	3	3	1	9	0	0	0	0	0	0	24	97	64	21	14	7	3	3	1	0	60.0			-0.007	0.95	0.00%	0.88	0.047
2023-06-07	MIN	@	TBR	L 1-2	GS-7	5	7.0	5	1	1	1	6	1	0	0	0	1	0	26	92	63	15	13	11	4	2	2	0	68.0			0.211	0.78	0.11%	0.69	2.461
2023-06-01	MIN		CLE	W 7-6	GS-6	4	5.2	8	6	6	1	5	0	0	0	0	0	0	26	88	67	12	10	10	3	4	3	0	33.0			-0.531	1.30	-0.37%	1.50	-3.638
2023-05-27	MIN		TOR	W 9-7	GS-6, W	5	5.2	5	4	4	3	6	2	0	0	0	0	0	24	88	54	14	12	3	6	4	2	0	46.0			-0.101	0.89	-0.06%	0.82	-1.186

Next Game: Tuesday, June 20th vs BOS

	W	L	ERA	G	GS	SV	IP	SO	WHIP
2023 Regular Season	3	4	4.4	15	15	0	90	110	1.14
Career Regular Season	31	35	4.01	109	109	0	600	599	1.18

[chpettit19]

13 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

Statements like "this is unacceptable", calling out the veteran leaders making the big $$$.  I think maybe he is not allowed to express his true feelings?  But many fans are feeling like they think this is good enough or acceptable or even fixable.

He has made those statements. I mean, in the 2 minute clip in this post he calls out both the hitting, and pitching. "Not everything is all up to chance, it's up to us, is what it is. We have our work cut out for us. We're gonna have to, WE have to figure it out, is what we have to do because we aren't playing real well." He's then asked if he's trying to find something to spark the team. Explains that they've tried things, and are still working to find the right thing. 

I don't know what else fans want. He's used the word "unacceptable" in the past. I just don't understand why any of this would make fans feel better. Some fans want/need big emotional outbursts, players being thrown under the bus, whatever. I don't, and I seriously don't understand what it'd help. If that would make the players play better (I don't know cuz I don't know the players) then that's what he should do, but would anyone be less upset with the Twins play if Rocco was in the media blasting Correa and Buxton everyday? I wouldn't be, but maybe some people would. I just don't get that need.

[TwinsDr2021]

45 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

He "called out" Kepler the other week. By Rocco standards at least. I'm sure some fans enjoyed it. It did nothing for me, and clearly nothing for Kepler's play.

I don't generally like to speak to the amount of "heart" guys play with.

The things with Kepler, I believe most of us didn't hear or follow, but Kepler since the 11th he has pinch hit twice, and pinch hit for after going 0 - 2 with two K's. Basically regulated to the bench. That should go down as a positive for Rocco not sticking him in the lineup everyday any longer.

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

That wasn't what I was talking about. I asked what the other poster wanted the manager to say to the media. 

I can't speak for "the other poster" but I want him to tell me what, precisely, he's doing.

"It'll turn" isn't an acceptable strategy to me. It hasn't turned since at least 2021. 

"We've thrown to the wrong base too many times, so I'm holding a mandatory 'situational baseball' workout every afternoon for the next week. We're going to get better at that, or we'll keep the workouts going." 

That's a strategy. But that ain't happening. No. We get "it'll turn. They're adults, they can decide whether practicing is worth their time. What can we do?"

[Aggies7]

Why was lopez extended so quickly? And what did rocco do to warrant his extension? Remember when dobnak was signed long term? Whatever happened to him? Can’t rag on the buxton extension too much. But why was correa signed long term to a team that should be rebuilding? Trading two prospects for a pitcher with injuries at the deadline last year….. The FO has made some absolutely wild decisions that haven’t worked out. Any number of those decisions should cost them their job..

[Blyleven2011]

3 hours ago, Swing Batter-Batter said:

I'm thinking that if they would actually play the same 3 guys in the outfield, even 2 or 3 games in a row, those mistakes might improve.

You mean consistency  , I don't even know what that word really means anymore  watching these Twins players  ...

[twinzcynic]

54 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

Are these numbers really that good?  Especially what we gave up for him:

	W	L	ERA	G	GS	SV	IP	SO	WHIP
2023 Regular Season	3	4	4.4	15	15	0	90	110	1.14
Career Regular Season	31	35	4.01	109	109	0	600	599	1.18

 

I was being sarcastic. TD and Twins beat writers keep saying how it was still a good trade, in large part part to Pablo's expected numbers instead of the actual production. The trade was a disaster and the extension will age terribly.