Twins 3, Red Sox 9: Lopez and Offense Sputters while Paxton Deals Twins Loss

[Woof Bronzer]

18 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

"It'll turn" isn't an acceptable strategy to me. It hasn't turned since at least 2021. 

I tend to agree with @chpettit19 that nothing Rocco says is especially meaningful.  However I am very interested to hear what the FO thinks about how this season has played out, how their trades have turned out, whether the new trainer is in any way better than the one they fired, if they still believe the bullpen "isn't a priority", why Pagan and Kepler are on the team, what concrete steps the organization is taking to turn this around, etc.  I continue to fear the FO is just deluding themselves into believing "it'll turn" and if so, it's a much bigger problem than Rocco's pressers.  

[John Belinski]

Another great move by the Twin's front office to extend Lopez. In the third inning he walked 2 batters and hit a batter so does that sound like a pitcher we should extend? Twins have 3 starting pitchers on the IR so why extend Lopez? I am not sure if the Twins have a bad front office or a bad manager or maybe both. Not having a winning record in a weak division is really hard to accept.

[chpettit19]

28 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I can't speak for "the other poster" but I want him to tell me what, precisely, he's doing.

"It'll turn" isn't an acceptable strategy to me. It hasn't turned since at least 2021. 

"We've thrown to the wrong base too many times, so I'm holding a mandatory 'situational baseball' workout every afternoon for the next week. We're going to get better at that, or we'll keep the workouts going." 

That's a strategy. But that ain't happening. No. We get "it'll turn. They're adults, they can decide whether practicing is worth their time. What can we do?"

Why? Do you believe they're not doing any work? Here's an article from today about the work Buxton's been doing. He hit off the velo machine the other day before he struck out. You feel better now?

What do their words actually matter to you? Fine, Rocco tells you they're doing "situational baseball workouts." Keeps telling you that through July. The aren't playing any better. Your feelings on Rocco changed because he told you what workouts they're doing? 

You're choosing to assume they're not doing work. You're choosing to assume they have no "strategy." Them telling you different, but the results not changing, isn't going to change your opinion on any of this. So why choose to be upset about the words Rocco says when all any of us really care about is how well they play?

You can fan however you want to fan. I don't get it. I don't see how anything they say changes anything. I don't care what they say. Just play better. Coaches, FO, players, everyone. None of their words matter. Coach better. Build a better team. Play better. Their words mean nothing. Doing their jobs better is all I care about.

[LastOnePicked]

13 minutes ago, John Belinski said:

Another great move by the Twin's front office to extend Lopez. In the third inning he walked 2 batters and hit a batter so does that sound like a pitcher we should extend?

Yeah, it may yet be a bit early, but I haven't seen much from Lopez to indicate that he'll be anything other than a #4-#5 starter with a 4.50 ERA. That kind of arm should have been very easy to develop, and shouldn't have cost you the best hitter in MLB or a large extended contract. That seems foolish now, and might look downright idiotic soon. 

What does this team need to win? A great contact bat (Arraez), a lockdown bullpen arm (Cano), a solid corner outfielder (Steer) and a top prospect starter knocking on the door (Povich). In other words, all of the things this FO gave away because they were sure about Solano/Julien, Lopez, Larnach/Wallner and Balazovic. An error of judgement at every spot.

Let's put it this way: you wouldn't walk into a casino with Falvey or Levine. Their instincts - or their luck - are absolutely terrible and seemingly contagious.

[LastOnePicked]

10 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

None of their words matter. Coach better. Build a better team. Play better.

Here's the potential problem, though - these things are very likely related. One of the goofy things I learned in college was that "rhetoric is epistemic." Basically, the words you use can often reveal your underlying mindset or meaning-making system. Or, simply, how you talk reveals how you think. 

There's very much a mushy weakness in how Rocco talks in postgames, and a distant corporate robotic-ness in how Falvey and Levine talk in press events. I think the ongoing concern is that these ways of speaking reveal some of the flaws in the manner of managing, developing and coaching for this club.

But what do I know? I'm not there, and there's much I'm not privy to. Oh well. We can only guess as fans. But we can also make our displeasure clear, too.

[chpettit19]

10 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

Here's the potential problem, though - these things are very likely related. One of the goofy things I learned in college was that "rhetoric is epistemic." Basically, the words you use can often reveal your underlying mindset or meaning-making system. Or, simply, how you talk reveals how you think. 

There's very much a mushy weakness in how Rocco talks in postgames, and a distant corporate robotic-ness in how Falvey and Levine talk in press events. I think the ongoing concern is that these ways of speaking reveal some of the flaws in the manner of managing, developing and coaching for this club.

But what do I know? I'm not there, and there's much I'm not privy to. Oh well. We can only guess as fans. But we can also make our displeasure clear, too.

You don't say things differently in public than you do in private? Gray and Rocco were heated in the dugout the other day. Did that make anyone feel better even though the team lost? Rocco is subdued, and doesn't throw guys under the bus, in pressers. Does that make anyone feel better even though they lose?

My point is your last paragraph there. We don't know anything. We're not in the clubhouse. We don't know what these guys are like behind closed doors. Fans can absolutely make their displeasure clear, but I don't get why fans care about what these guys say to us. Rocco isn't talking to the players in those pressers, he's talking to us. He talks to the players in the clubhouse. 

I'm not defending Rocco, the FO, any of their strategies, the players, how they're playing, anything. I'm simply confused as to what people get out of Rocco throwing a tantrum in front of the media, or saying whatever perfect, magic words they want to hear. To me, it's an emotional thing. People are all amped up about their favorite team, and "in their feels" as the kids say. They're mad, and want to see people with the club be mad in "the right way" so they feel like they care, too. I don't have any desire to see any of that. It doesn't change anything. I understand some fans do, and that's fine. I'm just confused on what saying different words in their forced pressers changes. Nothing they say matters to me. Just win more games, or at least play better baseball.

[TwinsDr2021]

55 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

That kind of arm should have been very easy to develop

He is on pace for 180 innings this year, since 2015 Gibson twice, E. Santana twice and Berrios twice are the only pitchers to have done that. So it might not be so easy to develop an pitcher that can pitch that many innings.

[MABB1959]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Why? Do you believe they're not doing any work? Here's an article from today about the work Buxton's been doing. He hit off the velo machine the other day before he struck out. You feel better now?

What do their words actually matter to you? Fine, Rocco tells you they're doing "situational baseball workouts." Keeps telling you that through July. The aren't playing any better. Your feelings on Rocco changed because he told you what workouts they're doing? 

You're choosing to assume they're not doing work. You're choosing to assume they have no "strategy." Them telling you different, but the results not changing, isn't going to change your opinion on any of this. So why choose to be upset about the words Rocco says when all any of us really care about is how well they play?

You can fan however you want to fan. I don't get it. I don't see how anything they say changes anything. I don't care what they say. Just play better. Coaches, FO, players, everyone. None of their words matter. Coach better. Build a better team. Play better. Their words mean nothing. Doing their jobs better is all I care about.

Thanks for the lecture!  My issue is how he sugar coats the whole situation and never admits how bad they are or holds himself or others accountable.  Just touchy feely the are going to get better.  

[LastOnePicked]

46 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

He is on pace for 180 innings this year, since 2015 Gibson twice, E. Santana twice and Berrios twice are the only pitchers to have done that. So it might not be so easy to develop an pitcher that can pitch that many innings.

Fair point. Though perhaps the quality was thought (or is thought) to be better than what we've seen. 

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

Thanks for the lecture!  My issue is how he sugar coats the whole situation and never admits how bad they are or holds himself or others accountable.  Just touchy feely the are going to get better.  

You're welcome! Wasn't even a reply to you, but I'm glad you enjoyed it.

I understand that's your, and others, issue. I don't get that issue. I don't get what you want him to say though. "I'm terrible, I should be fired" or "we suck, and never going to get better" aren't ever going to come out of his mouth. And even if they did I don't expect it'd make you any happier. But to each their own. "We aren't playing well enough, and need to change what we're doing" has come out of his mouth, many times. But that hasn't made anyone I know of feel any better. But maybe there is a magic phrase in there somewhere.

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Why? Do you believe they're not doing any work? Here's an article from today about the work Buxton's been doing. He hit off the velo machine the other day before he struck out. You feel better now?

No. I dont feel better at all.

1. Thanks for your permission to "fan" any way I wish. That's big of you.

2. As I said, Id feel better if he actually said something. "This is what we're doing." Yes, I'd feel better if he made infield and outfield mandatory for a month. If they're no better in a month, at least they tried.

3. This article is just more of the same crap. Id feel better if the article didn't tell me that Buxton HASN'T been working on the velo machine. But thats exactly what it says. He couldn't be bothered. Nor did anyone apparently try to get him to do so. Nor, apparently, does he need regular BP. I want Rocco to say something about that, and DO something about that. "Buck is sitting until he gets his timing back. I've scheduled extra early BP for him every day this week, and extra cage time. His at bats aren't competitive and we both need to work hard to fix that."

Instead, we get more hand wringing. And doing nothing.

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

No. I dont feel better at all.

1. Thanks for your permission to "fan" any way I wish. That's big of you.

2. As I said, Id feel better if he actually said something. "This is what we're doing." Yes, I'd feel better if he made infield and outfield mandatory for a month. If they're no better in a month, at least they tried.

3. This article is just more of the same crao. Id feel better if the article didn't tell me that Buxton HASN'T been working on the velo machine. But thats exactly what it says. He couldn't be bothered. Nor did anyone apparently try to get him to do so. Nor, apparently, does he need regular BP. I want to say something about that, and DO something about that. "Buck is sitting until he gets his timing back. I've scheduled extra early BP for him every day this week, and extra cage time."

Instead, we get more hand wringing.

1. Anytime. I aim to please.

2. We'll just never see eye to eye on the fact that "at least they tried" is nothing more than you assuming they aren't trying now. "If they don't tell me they're doing it, they aren't doing it" is an interesting stance. But point 1 means I'm all good with you taking that stance, because that's just how you fan.

3. First, how does he get his timing back against live pitching without playing? Bold strategy, but I'm sure it'd work great. I'd definitely move him down the order, though. Second, you've clearly taken the quote "in a while" to mean more than the IL stint he had that the article immediately talks about. But I admit I have no idea what "a while" really means. Do you know if he's a big velo machine guy normally? This isn't exactly his rookie year. When he's been going well in the past was he doing a lot of velo machine work? How about extra early BP, and extra cage time? Is that what's best for Buck to get on track? I'll admit I don't know. Funny that you take "eschews outdoor batting practice" to mean he doesn't need/take regular BP. Especially funny since, following the comma, it says that he does targeted work in the cage instead. It's almost like they're telling you the type of work he does, but you don't care anyways because it's not the type of work you want him to do based on all your inside knowledge of Buxton, his swing, and his routines.

[USAFChief]

8 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Funny that you take "eschews outdoor batting practice" to mean he doesn't need/take regular BP. Especially funny since, following the comma, it says that he does targeted work in the cage instead. It's almost like they're telling you the type of work he does, but you don't care anyways because it's not the type of work you want him to do based on all your inside knowledge of Buxton, his swing, and his routines.

It's "funny" that I take "he doesn't take outdoor BP" to mean "he doesn't take outdoor BP"?

 

I think outdoor BP has proven worthwhile for 150 years, and a guy with a lifetime .240 average, currently nudging .200 maybe ought to be told to get out there and take some BP. 

And yeah, id have expected to read hes been facing velocity as he comes off the IL.

And Yeah, I'd expect the manager to have some interest in that.

 

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

It's "funny" that I take "he doesn't take outdoor BP" to mean "he doesn't take outdoor BP"?

 

I think outdoor BP has proven worthwhile for 150 years, and a guy with a lifetime .240 average, currently nudging .200 maybe ought to be told to get out there and take some BP. 

And yeah, id have expected to read hes been facing velocity as he comes off the IL.

And Yeah, I'd expect the manager to have some interest in that.

 

You know they have cages inside right? Like lots of players take BP inside? I mean you know there's a difference between not taking outdoor BP, and not taking BP at all, right? You using the same quote twice there is literally changing the meaning of what was talked about in the article, and what I said. 

Again, the word outdoor feels like it's getting a little too much emphasis here. Why are you so obsessed with him doing it outdoors? Do you think there's a lot more BA in Buxton? You think if he took more BP outside instead of inside that lifetime average would .280, or what?

Why? Is the velo machine what was needed, or just something you want him to use? What's the difference between the velo machine, and the regular machine? I honestly don't know. Do you? How high does the regular one go? Do you think outdoor BP would make up for the velo machine, or does it have to be both?

Who says the manager has no interest in it? Is it possible that Rocco, Byron, and the rest of the Twins staff, knows his swing, his routines, and what he needs a little better than you or me? Your argument has gone from "they don't do enough work" to "they're doing the wrong work." I'm sure one of those is right.

[USAFChief]

2 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

You know they have cages inside right? Like lots of players take BP inside? I mean you know there's a difference between not taking outdoor BP, and not taking BP at all, right? You using the same quote twice there is literally changing the meaning of what was talked about in the article, and what I said. 

Again, the word outdoor feels like it's getting a little too much emphasis here. Why are you so obsessed with him doing it outdoors? Do you think there's a lot more BA in Buxton? You think if he took more BP outside instead of inside that lifetime average would .280, or what?

Why? Is the velo machine what was needed, or just something you want him to use? What's the difference between the velo machine, and the regular machine? I honestly don't know. Do you? How high does the regular one go? Do you think outdoor BP would make up for the velo machine, or does it have to be both?

Who says the manager has no interest in it? Is it possible that Rocco, Byron, and the rest of the Twins staff, knows his swing, his routines, and what he needs a little better than you or me? Your argument has gone from "they don't do enough work" to "they're doing the wrong work." I'm sure one of those is right.

Perhaps you're right. "Doesn't take outdoor BP" doesn't actually mean "doesn't take outdoor BP." Up is down. Right is left. 

 Nothing can be done. "It'll turn."

[chpettit19]

29 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Perhaps you're right. "Doesn't take outdoor BP" doesn't actually mean "doesn't take outdoor BP." Up is down. Right is left. 

 Nothing can be done. "It'll turn."

Why do you keep saying "Doesn't take outdoor BP" doesn't actually mean "doesn't take outdoor BP?" Like I honestly want to know. That's not a sentence I've ever said. They have cages inside. You know that, right? They can take batting practice (I assume we're both meaning batting practice when we say BP) inside. That's where that velo machine you want him to use is.

Why are you attempting to make it sound like I'm saying something I'm not? Byron does his batting practice inside. Why is that a crazy idea? If I'm remembering correctly, Mike Trout only does his inside, too. Yes, extreme example, but I'm confused on this obsession with the word "outdoor." You do accept that "doesn't take outdoor BP" doesn't mean "doesn't take BP," right? Like those are 2 different things? You've added the word "outdoor" to that second quote multiple times now. I've never had the word "outdoor" in that second quote. I mean you can go back and look at the comments you've quoted of mine. You've added that word in some weird attempt to make it sound like I've said something I haven't.

[MABB1959]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

You're welcome! Wasn't even a reply to you, but I'm glad you enjoyed it.

I understand that's your, and others, issue. I don't get that issue. I don't get what you want him to say though. "I'm terrible, I should be fired" or "we suck, and never going to get better" aren't ever going to come out of his mouth. And even if they did I don't expect it'd make you any happier. But to each their own. "We aren't playing well enough, and need to change what we're doing" has come out of his mouth, many times. But that hasn't made anyone I know of feel any better. But maybe there is a magic phrase in there somewhere.

Buxton had a good article on MLB.  He gives us a glimmer of what is going on with him.  He say's he feels great.

“I still feel great,” Buxton said. “It just ain't going the way I want it to, you know? Just probably doing a little more guessing and not trusting what I'm doing right now. But if you don't feel like your swing is there, that's what you tend to do. Got a good idea now of where I want to be, and it better be good. I’ve got to stay positive.”

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, MABB1959 said:

Buxton had a good article on MLB.  He gives us a glimmer of what is going on with him.  He say's he feels great.

“I still feel great,” Buxton said. “It just ain't going the way I want it to, you know? Just probably doing a little more guessing and not trusting what I'm doing right now. But if you don't feel like your swing is there, that's what you tend to do. Got a good idea now of where I want to be, and it better be good. I’ve got to stay positive.”

I wish he'd play great instead of just feel great!

[USAFChief]

18 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Why do you keep saying "Doesn't take outdoor BP" doesn't actually mean "doesn't take outdoor BP?" 

Those are your exact words

chpettit19: "Funny that you take "eschews outdoor batting practice" to mean he doesn't need/take regular BP."

BP is done outside, off a live pitcher. One more time:  Buxton doesnt take BP. Cage work is something different. Artificial light, pitching machine, controlled pitches.

One last time: I want the manager to manage. That includes mandatory times practicing hitting and fielding, for everyone. No exceptions. And when things aren't going well, more of the same, and/or sitting players who don't feel the need to participate fully. 

And I think publicly stating what he's doing, and why, is in everyone's best interests. 

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, USAFChief said:

Those are your words, mine.

chpettit19: "Funny that you take "eschews outdoor batting practice" to mean he doesn't need/take regular BP."

BP is done outside, off a live pitcher. One more time" Buxton doesnt take BP. Cage work is something different. Artificial light, pitching machine, controlled pitches.

One last time: I want the manager to manage. That includes mandatory times practicing hitting and fielding, for everyone. No exceptions. And when things aren't going well, more of the same, and/or sitting players who don't feel the need to participate fully. 

And I think publicly stating what he's doing, and why, is in everyone's best interests. 

Oh, so you've just defined BP how you want to. Got it. I follow now. You know they have live pitchers in the cage, too, right? I mean unless you think someone is actually getting on the Target Field mound and throwing real pitches like they're in a real game during the season. That doesn't happen. The only difference in what you're describing is the lighting/backdrop. They have real human beings who go into the cage and throw real baseballs in the cage, too. But I get the disconnect now.

Yeah, I understand that's what you want. And, as this conversation started, we will never agree on that. That's fine. We're well aware of our differences on that subject.

And we'll never agree on that last sentence either. Since you're still mad after they've publicly stated what Buxton is doing today. So, like I said from the beginning, what they say really doesn't matter, and hasn't changed anything. You're still unhappy. You want them to do things the way you want them done, and it doesn't seem you'll be happy until that's the case. Unless they play better. Which has been my point all along. All that really matters is what they play like.