The Twins bullpen is Bull

[tlkriens]

The Minnesota Twins are not a serious contender until they fix the bullpen.

It’s frustrating watching the front office make a lot of the right moves to fix the team, (trading for starting pitching, addressing the injuries and depth issues of last year, keeping Byron Buxton healthy) yet not address the bullpen.

The Minnesota starting rotation has absolutely masked the lack of quality depth this bullpen has. The problem is I don't think the Twins are going to address it at the trade deadline and if they somehow do, it will only be a short term fix and the same problem will proceed next season.

https://kornradio.com/news/the-twins-bullpen-is-bull/

[Greglw3]

10 minutes ago, tlkriens said:

The Minnesota Twins are not a serious contender until they fix the bullpen.

It’s frustrating watching the front office make a lot of the right moves to fix the team, (trading for starting pitching, addressing the injuries and depth issues of last year, keeping Byron Buxton healthy) yet not address the bullpen.

The Minnesota starting rotation has absolutely masked the lack of quality depth this bullpen has. The problem is I don't think the Twins are going to address it at the trade deadline and if they somehow do, it will only be a short term fix and the same problem will proceed next season.

https://kornradio.com/news/the-twins-bullpen-is-bull/

It's really kind of striking. I was just looking at a ranking that had Jax and Pagan 4, 5 and they are at best mediocre but leaning more toward poor. It’s becoming the AAA tryout show for a team that has the talent otherwise to win a WS. Big miscalculation in not addressing the bullpen at all through free agency or trade in the offseason. It’s heartbreaking.

[tony&rodney]

I'm ok with the Twins bullpen. The roles need to be real clear but there are times that the last guy needs to pitch in a tight game.

[Danchat]

The top three are solid, but the rest are a mixed bag. Stewart looks like the #4/5 guy until he proves he isn't. The key will be figuring out which prospects (Winder/Sands/Henriquez/Balazovic) can make an impact in the bullpen now. So far, Alcala and Moran aren't doing it for me.

[Twins GFP]

Any team in the majors have "real" bullpen depth past three guys?  If so,  I would bet that number is less than 3.

[Vanimal46]

I find it pretty tough to get mad at the bullpen when the Twins have scored 3 runs or less in 20 out of 45 games. 

[Rosterman]

The thing is, who is to say anyone "good" that you could've signed would be better? Can you trade for someone now that has life, and maybe not be Lopez 2.2023. 

I still can't figure out why Headrick went down. Was showing good stuff as a long lefty in the pen. And if used in such a role could still hit 100 innings for the year, possibly with a start here or there.

I felt Alcala needed to start the season in traiuning camp and then the minors, after being out for the season, jsut to get back into the swing of things. Same with Madea.

[tlkriens]

Aroldis Chapman ended up with KC and seems likely to be traded. That would have been a nice low risk option in the off season.

[Squirrel]

4 hours ago, tlkriens said:

The problem is I don't think the Twins are going to address it at the trade deadline

Why do you think this? They added two BP arms last year, for a team I don't think is as good as this year's. And one of those are still with the team and doing fairly well. I know they said during the off-season they had no plans then to do anything more to the BP (which, imo, was a mistake), but, that does not mean they won't add an arm or two at the deadline this year. While it's not what I would have done or would have liked done,  waiting to see which of your young arms might make the switch to BP, like Jax did, isn't completely unreasonable, I guess. Again, not what I would have done. Still ... they traded last year for two BP arms, so why do you think they won't this year?

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, tlkriens said:

Aroldis Chapman ended up with KC and seems likely to be traded. That would have been a nice low risk option in the off season.

I wouldn't have liked Chapman, personally, but there were others they could have targeted.

[ashbury]

3 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

I find it pretty tough to get mad at the bullpen when the Twins have scored 3 runs or less in 20 out of 45 games. 

Through sheer determination and great strength of will, I am capable of disappointment with two separate facets of the game at the same time, 

[Althebum82]

How long is this team going to permit itself to get fried by Pagan's "electric stuff"?  

Are we simply awaiting Paddack's return so we can demonstrate some kind of results for a big, dramatic, last minute trade from last season?

This team's relationship with Pagan has reached a level of toxicity that is beyond unhealthy.

[Irishman]

Please let Pagan go!   Rocco keeping Pagan is baffling me!  I do not know what Rocco see in Pagan.   

[TwinsDr2021]

12 hours ago, Greglw3 said:

It's really kind of striking. I was just looking at a ranking that had Jax and Pagan 4, 5 and they are at best mediocre but leaning more toward poor. It’s becoming the AAA tryout show for a team that has the talent otherwise to win a WS. Big miscalculation in not addressing the bullpen at all through free agency or trade in the offseason. It’s heartbreaking.

That is one of the side effects having a bunch of unproven players in their mid 20's (or older) clogging up the 40 man. It makes it tough to go out and get other talent because you are afraid of losing those players.

[NotAboutWinning]

48 minutes ago, Irishman said:

Please let Pagan go!   Rocco keeping Pagan is baffling me!  I do not know what Rocco see in Pagan.   

Not Rocco's call. That's all on Falvine!

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, Irishman said:

Please let Pagan go!   Rocco keeping Pagan is baffling me!  I do not know what Rocco see in Pagan.   

Roster decisions are not Rocco’s. He’s not keeping him on the team, the FO is. 

[Greglw3]

2 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

That is one of the side effects having a bunch of unproven players in their mid 20's (or older) clogging up the 40 man. It makes it tough to go out and get other talent because you are afraid of losing those players.

That is a good point. Wouldn’t want to lose Juien, Lewis or Wallner. One position of depth is 3B with Farmer, Lewis, Severino, Miranda.  

May be time to bring up Balazovic for now.

[adjacent]

2 hours ago, Irishman said:

Please let Pagan go!   Rocco keeping Pagan is baffling me!  I do not know what Rocco see in Pagan.   

I guess he sees what all of us can see too: good stuff. But also we can see a knack for throwing a bad pitch at the worst time

[USAFChief]

Ignoring the bullpen over the winter was some pretty questionable front officing. 

Now you're stuck until you have the chance to outbid everyone else in July.

 

[Mike Sixel]

Twins are league median in RP....and number 1 in starting. I get you can fix everything, theoretically, but I think we lose sight of progress sometimes.....Overall, they are the second best pitching team in MLB right now .....so, yes, a better bullpen would be great! But the anger at the FO is over the top for me (YMMV, of course).

[RickOShea]

5 hours ago, Squirrel said:

Roster decisions are not Rocco’s. He’s not keeping him on the team, the FO is. 

I have to believe rocco has some input on roster moves. The FO makes the final decision, but I'm sure Rocco has some influence, or the FO may follow Rocco's lead on a deal or move hear and there.  To think otherwise, is a little far-fetched.

[jun]

I really don't understand why this FO refused to invest in a solid bullpen. Instead they spent all the money on one single player Carlos Correa. How much impact can one single player make? I am not even talking about Correa's struggles. They would have let Pagan go if they used Correa's money to sign a few good ones.

[Squirrel]

4 minutes ago, RickOShea said:

I have to believe rocco has some input on roster moves. The FO makes the final decision, but I'm sure Rocco has some influence, or the FO may follow Rocco's lead on a deal or move hear and there.  To think otherwise, is a little far-fetched.

Yes, Rocco is the one who said to trade for him, Rocco is the one who kept in during the off-season, Rocco is the one saying he should stay over making any kind of trade. No, roster decisions aren't his. He isn't being kept on the roster because of Rocco. While pretty sure Rocco is asked his opinion, these moves are the FO's, not his. And the post I was responded to clearly stated it was Rocco keeping him here, no one else was mentioned.

[Unwinder]

The front office DID address the bullpen over the offseason. By addressing the starting rotation. In a perfect world, starters who can cover more innings mean you don't need so many bullpen arms to perform, and  Rocco can pick and choose when he uses a guy like Pagan. Great under ideal circumstances. Runs into trouble when you go deep into extra innings and/or pull your starter early and/or get no run support and/or start to rack up injuries among the good relievers. So, you know, the real world.

[Mike Sixel]

25 minutes ago, jun said:

I really don't understand why this FO refused to invest in a solid bullpen. Instead they spent all the money on one single player Carlos Correa. How much impact can one single player make? I am not even talking about Correa's struggles. They would have let Pagan go if they used Correa's money to sign a few good ones.

They added a great starter, to lessen the need. How many RPs would you have cut from the team before the year, and realistically signed? Which ones (w/o looking at their current stats)? Because signing three RPs that are GREAT seems unrealistically optimistic to me, but I could be wrong.

[SwainZag]

14 minutes ago, jun said:

I really don't understand why this FO refuse to invest in a solid bullpen. Instead they want to spend all the money on one single player Carlos Correa. How much impact can one single player make? I am not even talking about Correa's struggles. They would have let Pagan go if they used Correa's money to sign a few good ones.

Building a bullpen is harder than just throwing money at it.  Very few relievers are good year in and year out.  Your top 5 RP free agents coming out of last year were:

Edwin Diaz, signed for $20M per.  Will miss the season

Kenley Jansen, signed $16M per. 4.26 ERA, 3.30 FIP so far

Aroldis Chapman, signed $3.8 per.  3.24 ERA, 2.04 FIP so far.  Having his best season since 2017, but has major character issues

Craig Kimbrel, signed $10M per.  6.60 ERA, 4.50 FIP so far

Taylor Rodgers, signed $11M per.  4.73 ERA, 6.08 FIP.

Who else would you have had them signing?  I would have liked to see an addition in the offseason as well, but it's not as easy as tossing money at.

[stringer bell]

Yes, there is extreme volatility in relief pitchers. Megill didn't pan out, Alcala and Moran have disappointed and then there is Pagan. The Twins haven't rolled sevens, except possibly Stewart. 

Given their history--Lopez 2022, Sam Dyson, Alex Colome, and Addison Reed, I think the current front office would be skeptical about spending too much in money or prospects to land a good bullpen piece. Developing relievers has been a bit of a crap shoot as well, with Taylor Rogers probably being their biggest success.

The rotation's flip to throwing among the most innings this year probably has saved the bullpen from really being exposed. I do believe, if they want to compete for more than surviving the AL Central, the Twins need to find or add at least one and probably two more arms. Funny, I think I was saying the exact same thing a year ago.

[RickOShea]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

Yes, Rocco is the one who said to trade for him, Rocco is the one who kept in during the off-season, Rocco is the one saying he should stay over making any kind of trade. No, roster decisions aren't his. He isn't being kept on the roster because of Rocco. While pretty sure Rocco is asked his opinion, these moves are the FO's, not his. And the post I was responded to clearly stated it was Rocco keeping him here, no one else was mentioned.

For the record, I do not believe Rocco is the one making the decisions on Pagan.  My apologies for making a general statement concerning Rocco's input on roster moves.

[Rod Carews Birthday]

2 hours ago, SwainZag said:

Building a bullpen is harder than just throwing money at it.  Very few relievers are good year in and year out.  Your top 5 RP free agents coming out of last year were:

Edwin Diaz, signed for $20M per.  Will miss the season

Kenley Jansen, signed $16M per. 4.26 ERA, 3.30 FIP so far

Aroldis Chapman, signed $3.8 per.  3.24 ERA, 2.04 FIP so far.  Having his best season since 2017, but has major character issues

Craig Kimbrel, signed $10M per.  6.60 ERA, 4.50 FIP so far

Taylor Rodgers, signed $11M per.  4.73 ERA, 6.08 FIP.

Who else would you have had them signing?  I would have liked to see an addition in the offseason as well, but it's not as easy as tossing money at.

This. Is. Exactly. True. 

Bullpens lose games.  All the time.  For every team. 

The best relief pitchers lose games.  All the time.  For every team.

So do starting pitchers.

If it were as easy as just throwing money at the problem, it would be an easy fix.  It's not.  What a world we must live in to have  league leading starting pitching and a league average bullpen.  I will sign up for that ten times out of ten.

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, RickOShea said:

For the record, I do not believe Rocco is the one making the decisions on Pagan.  My apologies for making a general statement concerning Rocco's input on roster moves.

I was just responding to someone who put it all on Rocco. I agree with you in that I'm sure that Rocco is consulted in some way about needs, but I don't think he has a real say in what the FO does. But then, I don't really know.