Twins will go as far as Rocco won’t let them

[Greglw3]

1 hour ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

According to the OP and several others on this rather long string, Rocco Baldelli is a poor manager and is holding back the team.  I disagree.  I think the combination of mostly happy productive players having a mostly productive collective season (not individual necessarily) and putting the team in first place at this point is indicative of the manager not being the problem, if there really is a "PROBLEM" that is anything out of the ordinary for any baseball team short of the '27 Yankees. "Managing" is about dealing with the big picture items and the team over the long haul, not micromanaging every single thing.  (I had one of those once, it wasn't pretty).  Rocco is more likely an above average manager based on results alone.  Were he let go by the Twins, I'm certain he would get a new job very quickly.

That being said, every "problem" must have a solution.  Who do you propose that is alive (no to Casey Stengel or Billy Martin), available (probably can't hire Terry Francona or Dusty Baker), proven (remember, we know they are better), willing (probably not Joe Torre), and has the abilities (no to posters on Twins Daily, but hey I'm retired!) to take the job?  Surely, if Baldelli is that terrible, the list of candidates is endless. 

I'd advance the names of Jim Leyland and Joe Maddon. Just my personal opinion. I think they were both great managers when left to manage without interference (Maddon)

[Rod Carews Birthday]

11 minutes ago, Greglw3 said:

I'd advance the names of Jim Leyland and Joe Maddon. Just my personal opinion. I think they were both great managers when left to manage without interference (Maddon)

Fair.  I would maintain that they are likely permanently retired at this point, but you never know.  Tony LaRussa was managing last year. . . OOF.

[tlkriens]

Similar to last year, I feel like there will be a time when the bullpen will be overworked. Everything team will have that issue. That's why I like to try and get an extra inning from a starter when possible and to use your best guys more. It is interesting that Duran was a starter and throwing over 100 innings a year in the minor is now reduced to the usual 65-67 innings as a closer.

It seems like there needs to be a middle ground between a SP that throws 150 innings and most RP at 65 innings. Why can't a RP get to that 80-95 innings mark? Seems like that would be a better way to go. When you have a quality reliever out there, I'd prefer him go a couple of innings because it may be five days before he pitches again. There just has to be a better way to get more from your best RP.

[SwainZag]

17 minutes ago, tlkriens said:

Similar to last year, I feel like there will be a time when the bullpen will be overworked. Everything team will have that issue. That's why I like to try and get an extra inning from a starter when possible and to use your best guys more. It is interesting that Duran was a starter and throwing over 100 innings a year in the minor is now reduced to the usual 65-67 innings as a closer.

It seems like there needs to be a middle ground between a SP that throws 150 innings and most RP at 65 innings. Why can't a RP get to that 80-95 innings mark? Seems like that would be a better way to go. When you have a quality reliever out there, I'd prefer him go a couple of innings because it may be five days before he pitches again. There just has to be a better way to get more from your best RP.

Duran last threw 100+ innings in 2019.  He didn't pitch in 20, had a very injury plagued 21 which kept him only throwing 16 innings.  I'd say 67 was a good building block, but would love to see 80-90 if the extra innings could stay effective as they were last session. 

[specialiststeve]

On 5/2/2023 at 9:40 PM, tlkriens said:

My biggest complaint about Minnesota Twins manager Rocco Baldelli in his five years in Minneapolis is his use of the bullpen and it reared its ugly head again Tuesday night in Chicago.

https://kornradio.com/news/twins-will-go-as-far-as-rocco-wont-let-them/?fbclid=IwAR0nxoFOO2XZc5xZ1OFt-e6btXUCoPlcXQt-H1dBGp6swujVKJzS3lfNBT0

He has been TERRIBLE. Period. If the Twins want to make a serious run at the playoffs and "more".. he needs to go. 

Clueless with the pitching staff... clueless in extra inning situations... Clueless in demanding improved situational hitting. 

Nice guy and well spoken but just not a good manager.... time to move on.

[Woof Bronzer]

On 5/3/2023 at 11:27 AM, Nine of twelve said:

This is a rhetorical question (meaning I'm not asking for a specific response). Which is worse: pulling the starter too soon or pulling him too late?

I love this kind of philosophical discussion!  I'd say pulling the starter too soon is worse.  2022 is a great example of this, because we tax the heck out of our bullpen which was one of the main reasons for a downfall.  Pulling a starter too soon can lead to a domino effect that can have longer term repercussions.  Then again, pulling a starter too late could cost you the game, so I'd say in the playoffs (lol) better to err on the early side.  Just my 2 cents.  Great question!

[Woof Bronzer]

On 5/3/2023 at 12:05 PM, Brock Beauchamp said:

In that final batter, Ryan threw four fastballs that came in at 89, 90, 89, 90.

That's roughly 3mph slower than he was sitting earlier in the game.

It's not only about pitch count, people. The manager's job is to actually watch his pitchers out there.

Well, sure, but a pitcher's job is to get outs, not to throw a certain mph.   I'm certain Jack Morris' mph declined in '91 G7.  Good pitchers learn how to get through jams with less than ideal stuff - but you gotta give them the chance to do so!  

[KirbyDome89]

7 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Jorge Lopez was a very deserving all star last year. You act like he was terrible. Duran was better in the 2nd half, but Lopez may have been the best reliever in baseball the first half. He's not Pagan or something.  And I'm pretty sure we're talking about the game Tuesday so how they're doing this year is rather important, no? I'd rather have MAT at the plate right now than Correa or Miranda, yes. Not sure why that's crazy since the other 2 are awful right now.

I'll just leave you with this: if it's so obvious that they should use Duran to keep a game tied for longer and "give them one more inning to hit" while worrying about the save later, why aren't fans up in arms about him not throwing last night in the 7th when it was tied? Or the 8th when they were only down 1? If that's the best way to win I assume you're upset at Rocco for screwing it up again last night.

Duran was elite from start to finish last year, so yeah, that carries more weight for me. I've never once said Lopez was terrible, again, you need to stop building arguments that aren't there. If you want to tell me that the hierarchy has flipped this year after 13 innings ok; I couldn't agree less. 

Because the Twins have 2 ABs left after the 7th? This isn't rocket science. They knew going into the bottom of the 10th that the game was over if Chicago scored. Those situations aren't remotely the same. 

I get that there's an inordinate amount or Rocco criticism on TD, but not all critiques are "blaming Rocco for screwing it up," or on par with the "Rocco sucks," theme echoed across every game thread. I never once pinned the loss on him; don't reduce my posts to that.  

[laloesch]

3 hours ago, specialiststeve said:

He has been TERRIBLE. Period. If the Twins want to make a serious run at the playoffs and "more".. he needs to go. 

Clueless with the pitching staff... clueless in extra inning situations... Clueless in demanding improved situational hitting. 

Nice guy and well spoken but just not a good manager.... time to move on.

I agree.  The Homers don't, but you are correct.  I've seen his managing style and it has never impressed me.  He's a good stop gap manager in my mind, but long term they need to find someone else in my opinion.  He has never managed bullpens well.

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 hours ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Well, sure, but a pitcher's job is to get outs, not to throw a certain mph.   I'm certain Jack Morris' mph declined in '91 G7.  Good pitchers learn how to get through jams with less than ideal stuff - but you gotta give them the chance to do so!  

It’s the beginning of May. If your starter has lost 3mph off their fastball and it’s relatively late in the game, you get him the hell out of the game.

[chpettit19]

23 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Duran was elite from start to finish last year, so yeah, that carries more weight for me. I've never once said Lopez was terrible, again, you need to stop building arguments that aren't there. If you want to tell me that the hierarchy has flipped this year after 13 innings ok; I couldn't agree less. 

Because the Twins have 2 ABs left after the 7th? This isn't rocket science. They knew going into the bottom of the 10th that the game was over if Chicago scored. Those situations aren't remotely the same. 

I get that there's an inordinate amount or Rocco criticism on TD, but not all critiques are "blaming Rocco for screwing it up," or on par with the "Rocco sucks," theme echoed across every game thread. I never once pinned the loss on him; don't reduce my posts to that.  

"Unquestionably their best." Fine, you didn't say he's terrible, but you made it sound like he was nowhere near Duran. Interesting that you mention 13 innings, since it was 12 innings (and 4 earned runs allowed) for Lopez with the Twins last year before the hierarchy flipped, and he was no longer the closer and started pitching in the 8th with Duran finishing games. Duran has allowed 3 runs in 10.2 innings this year. So 13 innings doesn't sound too crazy. I'm not even suggesting Lopez should be the closer, but 13 relief innings of him being the better pitcher at not allowing base runners, or, more importantly, runs, is enough to say there's a question over who their best reliever is currently for me. Clearly not for you. To each their own.

If Thielbar couldn't get outs in the 11th the game was over anyways. How is that "not remotely the same" as "if Thielbar can't get outs in the 8th the game is over?" That 1 extra at bat makes it not "remotely similar?" If me using the word "terrible" is "building arguments that aren't there" I think you use the phrase "remotely the same" is at least pretty close to "building arguments that aren't there." Because in both situations Duran was doing nothing but hopefully ensuring some other reliever was still going to have to get outs, and the offense was going to have to score. Using Duran anytime before the potential last inning of a close (+/- 1 run) game puts the team in the same situation of having to have other relievers get outs after him. You prefer that in the 10th, but not the 7th or 8th apparently? I don't see the drastic difference since it's the same arms likely having to get the outs. I see that as being pretty "remotely the same."

I read "waiting for a save opportunity to use your best arm seems like a good way to let a few of those chances slip away." as saying Rocco screwed up, and the loss is at least a little on him. I read "I'd rather this club try to win an 11 inning game than predict the future, particularly with bullpen usage." as saying Rocco didn't give them a chance to win an 11 inning game by choosing to use a different reliever, and thus is at least a little to blame for the loss.  If that's not how you meant it I apologize for misinterpreting your intention.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Duran was elite from start to finish last year, so yeah, that carries more weight for me. I've never once said Lopez was terrible, again, you need to stop building arguments that aren't there. If you want to tell me that the hierarchy has flipped this year after 13 innings ok; I couldn't agree less. 

Because the Twins have 2 ABs left after the 7th? This isn't rocket science. They knew going into the bottom of the 10th that the game was over if Chicago scored. Those situations aren't remotely the same. 

I get that there's an inordinate amount or Rocco criticism on TD, but not all critiques are "blaming Rocco for screwing it up," or on par with the "Rocco sucks," theme echoed across every game thread. I never once pinned the loss on him; don't reduce my posts to that.  

We may get to see your plan play out today, and I may have to tip my cap if it plays out the way you hope it will.

[Dr Katz]

The manager has seemed to have problems handling pitchers since he became manager. That certainly is not his strength and should be worked on with time. 

[Nine of twelve]

22 hours ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

Who do you propose that is alive, available, proven, willing, and has the abilities to take the job?

And, even though this was not explicitly stated, is very likely to be better than Baldelli.

I don't think such a person exists. Probably the biggest stumbling block here is proven. That means someone who has capably managed a team, especially at a major league level.

The heart of the issue here is that it's very easy to fire a manager but it's more difficult and more important to identify and hire a good one. I have no experience in human resources but I think if a high-level business executive is fired a replacement is often already set to take the position. Fire Baldelli? IMHO, do that only if there is someone better ready to step in.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

On 5/4/2023 at 9:26 AM, Rod Carews Birthday said:

According to the OP and several others on this rather long string, Rocco Baldelli is a poor manager and is holding back the team.  I disagree.  I think the combination of mostly happy productive players having a mostly productive collective season (not individual necessarily) and putting the team in first place at this point is indicative of the manager not being the problem, if there really is a "PROBLEM" that is anything out of the ordinary for any baseball team short of the '27 Yankees. "Managing" is about dealing with the big picture items and the team over the long haul, not micromanaging every single thing.  (I had one of those once, it wasn't pretty).  Rocco is more likely an above average manager based on results alone.  Were he let go by the Twins, I'm certain he would get a new job very quickly.

That being said, every "problem" must have a solution.  Who do you propose that is alive (no to Casey Stengel or Billy Martin), available (probably can't hire Terry Francona or Dusty Baker), proven (remember, we know they are better), willing (probably not Joe Torre), and has the abilities (no to posters on Twins Daily, but hey I'm retired!) to take the job?  Surely, if Baldelli is that terrible, the list of candidates is endless. 

I find myself defending Baldelli quite a bit, but I don’t know if I like him as a manager, as much as I agree with your point.

to add to your point, if the manager really is the problem and he needs to be replaced, who might Falvey and Levine choose to replace him with? If not naming names, what values do Falvey and Levine hold that they would use in a hiring decision?

Rocco is their guy, hand picked. Not just who’s available that checks all the boxes we would lay out, but who also aligns with Falvine’s values? Whoever that person is, would likely be very similar in approach to decision making. The Twins have a very Matrixed organization and likely things won’t change much until those two are gone.

[Brock Beauchamp]

22 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

To add to your point, if the manager really is the problem and he needs to be replaced, who might Falvey and Levine choose to replace him with? If not naming names, what values do Falvey and Levine hold that they would use in a hiring decision?

What's Jim Leyland up to nowadays?

(other than chain smoking)

[IndianaTwin]

I said this elsewhere, but I'll post it here as well, because it seems relevant. To those who don't care for Rocco's in-game management, I'd posit that Thursday's game was definitely one in which he outmanaged the opposing manager. He mixed and matched relievers beautifully, including using the intentional walks strategically to face the most strikeout-prone upcoming hitters at times when any ball to the outfield wins the game. By contrast, Sox manager outthunk himself with pinch running Hamilton to go for the win and taking Vaughn's bat out of the lineup, etc.

[stringer bell]

This might be off-topic, but this shows the double-edged sword of a specialist like Hamilton. With the ghost runner shortening games, I would use Hamilton after a lead off walk 100% of the time. It didn’t work out for Chicago this time and Hamilton had to hit in a game situation not once, but twice. He is a real weapon on the bases, but a waste of a roster spot otherwise. 
 

Hamilton spent a lot of time on third base, but his team couldn’t drive him in. If he had scored on a short fly ball or wild pitch, he’s a hero and Grifol looks pretty smart. 

[Rod Carews Birthday]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

What's Jim Leyland up to nowadays?

(other than chain smoking)

Hey!  Tony Oliva is only a few years older!  

[NotAboutWinning]

I'm not a Rocco fan, but his management was spot-on using IBBs to get Hamilton to the plate for a guaranteed out.

[KirbyDome89]

22 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

"Unquestionably their best." Fine, you didn't say he's terrible, but you made it sound like he was nowhere near Duran. Interesting that you mention 13 innings, since it was 12 innings (and 4 earned runs allowed) for Lopez with the Twins last year before the hierarchy flipped, and he was no longer the closer and started pitching in the 8th with Duran finishing games. Duran has allowed 3 runs in 10.2 innings this year. So 13 innings doesn't sound too crazy. I'm not even suggesting Lopez should be the closer, but 13 relief innings of him being the better pitcher at not allowing base runners, or, more importantly, runs, is enough to say there's a question over who their best reliever is currently for me. Clearly not for you. To each their own.

If Thielbar couldn't get outs in the 11th the game was over anyways. How is that "not remotely the same" as "if Thielbar can't get outs in the 8th the game is over?" That 1 extra at bat makes it not "remotely similar?" If me using the word "terrible" is "building arguments that aren't there" I think you use the phrase "remotely the same" is at least pretty close to "building arguments that aren't there." Because in both situations Duran was doing nothing but hopefully ensuring some other reliever was still going to have to get outs, and the offense was going to have to score. Using Duran anytime before the potential last inning of a close (+/- 1 run) game puts the team in the same situation of having to have other relievers get outs after him. You prefer that in the 10th, but not the 7th or 8th apparently? I don't see the drastic difference since it's the same arms likely having to get the outs. I see that as being pretty "remotely the same."

I read "waiting for a save opportunity to use your best arm seems like a good way to let a few of those chances slip away." as saying Rocco screwed up, and the loss is at least a little on him. I read "I'd rather this club try to win an 11 inning game than predict the future, particularly with bullpen usage." as saying Rocco didn't give them a chance to win an 11 inning game by choosing to use a different reliever, and thus is at least a little to blame for the loss.  If that's not how you meant it I apologize for misinterpreting your intention.

We should probably mention the fact that Lopez was even worse after moving to lower leverage last season. That's pretty important if we're comparing the two right? No, not for me. Lopez didn't pitch well for the Twins last year, that's really not debatable. I want more than a nice April before I'm handing him the ball over Duran. 

Yes, having even one more AB, i.e. an opportunity to score an extend the game, makes that a very different situation. A clean 8th inning with another chance to hit guaranteed isn't remotely the same as starting the 10th with a runner on 2nd and the game set to end if that runner scores. I'm happy to see other relievers attempt to get outs if Duran's appearance extends the game, which it potentially would've in that 10th inning. If Duran comes in as a fireman in the 7th or 8th, ok. If he had thrown the 9th inning when it was prevent a run or go home, ok. 

I do (did if we now know Duran wasn't available) think Rocco made a mistake not inserting what I view as his best bullpen weapon. Misplays happen all the time over the course of a game; there's no point in fixating on one decision, or pinning the loss on an individual. 

[KirbyDome89]

22 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

We may get to see your plan play out today, and I may have to tip my cap if it plays out the way you hope it will.

It's a philosophical disagreement. I wouldn't feel any differently if it had been the Twins imploding in the 12th yesterday; you shouldn't either. 

[Five minute major]

Many of the posters here are the exact reason why Minnesota will never have another championship sports team of the big 4 and is breaking all the rules of mathematics with its current championship drought.   Too many people happy with moral victories and low expectations.   Rocco is inept as a head coach.  Nice guy, but terrible manager.  He owes his current employement to riding Nelson Cruz's gigantic coattails.  Stop defending this guy and management.  They need to go.  You can bookmark this post.   They are not going anywhere this year.   And don't get me started on the Mahle trade.............

CES getting ready to get called up.  We are going to rue the trade for a very long time.

[Craig Arko]

12 minutes ago, Five minute major said:

Many of the posters here are the exact reason why Minnesota will never have another championship sports team of the big 4 and is breaking all the rules of mathematics with its current championship drought.   Too many people happy with moral victories and low expectations.   Rocco is inept as a head coach.  Nice guy, but terrible manager.  He owes his current employement to riding Nelson Cruz's gigantic coattails.  Stop defending this guy and management.  They need to go.  You can bookmark this post.   They are not going anywhere this year.   And don't get me started on the Mahle trade.............

CES getting ready to get called up.  We are going to rue the trade for a very long time.

I didn’t realize we had that kind of power. Actually, I don’t think so.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

18 minutes ago, Five minute major said:

Many of the posters here are the exact reason why Minnesota will never have another championship sports team of the big 4 and is breaking all the rules of mathematics with its current championship drought.   Too many people happy with moral victories and low expectations.   Rocco is inept as a head coach.  Nice guy, but terrible manager.  He owes his current employement to riding Nelson Cruz's gigantic coattails.  Stop defending this guy and management.  They need to go.  You can bookmark this post.   They are not going anywhere this year.   And don't get me started on the Mahle trade.............

CES getting ready to get called up.  We are going to rue the trade for a very long time.

Rocco didn’t trade for Mahle, Rocco’s not the GM.

What does fan expectation have to do with pro sport team performance?

[ashbury]

38 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

What does fan expectation have to do with pro sport team performance?

"Meh, the fans won't care.  Let's trade for Mahle.  Last place, here we come!"

[Jocko87]

How'd the bullpen usage treat you today?

[tlkriens]

8 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

How'd the bullpen usage treat you today?

It was good. I posted this in the game thread.

"Ober was great tonight. Jorge Lopez needed 10 pitches to get through the 8th. This is a situation where I'd give Lopez then 9th and save Duran. I would use guys less often, but they might go longer when they get in."

Just my philosophy. 

[Five minute major]

On 5/5/2023 at 4:21 PM, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Rocco didn’t trade for Mahle, Rocco’s not the GM.

What does fan expectation have to do with pro sport team performance?

It's the acceptance of mediocrity that keeps ownership from being forced to make changes in management that would bring a less accepting fanbase back into the money paying fold.  Generally speaking, the fanbase in this state has been conditioined to accept the absolute trainwrecks of sports franchises in this state.  There is simply no pressure on ownership to want to get better as the bottom line is consistently healthy.

 

[Craig Arko]

6 minutes ago, Five minute major said:

It's the acceptance of mediocrity that keeps ownership from being forced to make changes in management that would bring a less accepting fanbase back into the money paying fold.  Generally speaking, the fanbase in this state has been conditioined to accept the absolute trainwrecks of sports franchises in this state.  There is simply no pressure on ownership to want to get better as the bottom line is consistently healthy.

 

To be blunt, on the list of things that affect my life, this does not show up on the radar.