Twins will go as far as Rocco won’t let them

[rwilfong86]

6 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

We're complaining about using Jorge Lopez? The guy who until yesterday had given up zero earned runs, and seven total baserunners in his previous 12 innings? OK.

 

Exactly. I can see keeping Ryan in and bringing in Jorge Lopez if someone got on, but I can't fault the decision to bring in Lopez since he had been lights out all season until that inning. 

[Jocko87]

Top 3 WPA: .Joe Ryan (.364), Nick Gordon (.177), Brock Stewart (.135)

Why didn't he start Nicky G?  Dumb Rocco, that's 3 home runs and 8 great catches we missed out on.

[KirbyDome89]

23 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Using Duran doesn't solve the problem of other pitchers having to get outs. It can't. Losing in the 11th instead of the 10th isn't better, it's worse. It's why managers don't use their closer in extra innings on the road unless they have a lead.

But maybe you watched the offense last night and thought they were just 1 inning away from really blowing that game open so should've used Duran because there was just such a great chance they'd drop a 5 spot in the 11th. And having 1 of 4 games against the Sox this year decided by more than 1 run (while averaging 3 runs a game against them) should make Rocco really confident that he'll have a blowout on his hands with his rookie pitcher on the mound making his 7th career start tonight so he probably won't need any of his top pen arms tonight so using them all last night wouldn't be a problem.

There is nothing to "solve." Either you use your best arm(s) and improve your odds of extending/winning the game or you hold out hope a save opportunity arises. I'd opt for the former. I'd rather this club try to win an 11 inning game than predict the future, particularly with bullpen usage.  

This is the same Sox team that committed 4 errors (including literally throwing away the first game) booted multiple double play balls, and had a LF fall down trying to field a routine fly ball in a 3 game series right? That Sox team? Yeah, I think having a runner on 2nd to start the 10th puts more pressure on a piss poor defensive squad, and an offense even like the Twins' can score in that situation. Wild huh?

[Greglw3]

8 hours ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

Ryan's velocity dipped quite a bit at the end of the 6th compared to the rest of the game. If you are assuming that he would give you another full inning, while throwing 87 mph fastballs, then I don't know what to tell you. I would argue that keeping in a tired pitcher is more stupid than not at that point.

Lopez is a good pitcher, and Eloy got him for a homerun on a pitch 8 inches inside. Sometimes you just tip your cap.

And, lastly, just because bringing in a reliever in a specific spot didn't work in this specific game DOES NOT MEAN that doing something different would yield a different result.

Through my years following baseball, I’ve never heard of a tired pitcher that only gave up 1 hit. It’s always been when the pitcher starts getting hit, you know he’s done. Terry Francona and Jim Leyland would routinely let their best pitchers throw 115-120 pitches.

I think the other writer was right about Jax. He kicked away a game recently when he was obviously struggling mightily, missing badly and consistently with his slider. A good manager doesn’t sit passively in the dugout while the game quite predictably goes down the tubes. He gets Jax out of there. 

Other examples are Rocco leaving in Martin Perez to give up about 8 straight hits and 8-10 runs, last year I think it was Ryan he left in for 10 runs.

[CRF]

11 minutes ago, Greglw3 said:

Through my years following baseball, I’ve never heard of a tired pitcher that only gave up 1 hit. It’s always been when the pitcher starts getting hit, you know he’s done. Terry Francona and Jim Leyland would routinely let their best pitchers throw 115-120 pitches.

I think the other writer was right about Jax. He kicked away a game recently when he was obviously struggling mightily, missing badly and consistently with his slider. A good manager doesn’t sit passively in the dugout while the game quite predictably goes down the tubes. He gets Jax out of there. 

Other examples are Rocco leaving in Martin Perez to give up about 8 straight hits and 8-10 runs, last year I think it was Ryan he left in for 10 runs.

Same with Maeda in his last start. 

[chpettit19]

41 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

There is nothing to "solve." Either you use your best arm(s) and improve your odds of extending/winning the game or you hold out hope a save opportunity arises. I'd opt for the former. I'd rather this club try to win an 11 inning game than predict the future, particularly with bullpen usage.  

This is the same Sox team that committed 4 errors (including literally throwing away the first game) booted multiple double play balls, and had a LF fall down trying to field a routine fly ball in a 3 game series right? That Sox team? Yeah, I think having a runner on 2nd to start the 10th puts more pressure on a piss poor defensive squad, and an offense even like the Twins' can score in that situation. Wild huh?

They did use their best arm this season (Lopez has been their best reliever), and he blew the lead. Then they used their 3rd and 4th best arms. Their 3rd best arm lost the game. If throwing 3 of their 4 best arms, and having the non-best arm reliever they used not give up a run, isn't good enough to win an 11 inning game then there's a bigger problem. If Jhoan Duran pitching is the only way to secure 1 more inning to give them a chance to score they're doomed. If they can't trust Thielbar to hold a tie in the 10th they're doomed. If they need to throw Duran every close game he's not going to make it through the season. 

The Twins offense literally did have a runner on 2nd to start the 10th, and didn't score. So kind of wild I guess?

[Seth Stohs]

1 hour ago, Jocko87 said:

Top 3 WPA: .Joe Ryan (.364), Nick Gordon (.177), Brock Stewart (.135)

Why didn't he start Nicky G?  Dumb Rocco, that's 3 home runs and 8 great catches we missed out on.

I believe it was Dee Gordon, according to the article. 

[chpettit19]

34 minutes ago, Greglw3 said:

Through my years following baseball, I’ve never heard of a tired pitcher that only gave up 1 hit. It’s always been when the pitcher starts getting hit, you know he’s done. Terry Francona and Jim Leyland would routinely let their best pitchers throw 115-120 pitches.

I think the other writer was right about Jax. He kicked away a game recently when he was obviously struggling mightily, missing badly and consistently with his slider. A good manager doesn’t sit passively in the dugout while the game quite predictably goes down the tubes. He gets Jax out of there. 

Other examples are Rocco leaving in Martin Perez to give up about 8 straight hits and 8-10 runs, last year I think it was Ryan he left in for 10 runs.

I mean it's not just 1 hit through 6, but that Terry Francona fella pulled his starter on April 18th of this very season after 3 hits through 6 innings and 87 pitches. 🤷‍♂️

[ziggy]

tough crowd on this thread. 

O.P. has 30 posts in 7 years.  He might not be so chatty after the lashes he has received on this thread.

[KirbyDome89]

24 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

They did use their best arm this season (Lopez has been their best reliever), and he blew the lead. Then they used their 3rd and 4th best arms. Their 3rd best arm lost the game. If throwing 3 of their 4 best arms, and having the non-best arm reliever they used not give up a run, isn't good enough to win an 11 inning game then there's a bigger problem. If Jhoan Duran pitching is the only way to secure 1 more inning to give them a chance to score they're doomed. If they can't trust Thielbar to hold a tie in the 10th they're doomed. If they need to throw Duran every close game he's not going to make it through the season. 

The Twins offense literally did have a runner on 2nd to start the 10th, and didn't score. So kind of wild I guess?

C'mon, stop with the stawman stuff; Duran is unquestionably their best relief option, and nobody is asking for him to throw every close game. I know there was an availability qualifier involved. It isn't the only way, but it's the best way to give yourself a shot at another inning. The bullpen is doomed is they have to hide Pagan, Moran, and Winder over 162 games; that doesn't mean I want those guys throwing important innings if better options are available. 

And they likely would've gotten another chance in the 11th, but apparently it's more desirable to save your best bullet for a hypothetical situation, use a lesser arm, and lose in 10 innings. 

[USAFChief]

5 hours ago, wsnydes said:

Definitely more of a gentleman's game prior to the 1870s, wasn't it?

We should ask Chief what that was like!

It was more of a gentleman's game.

[chpettit19]

10 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

C'mon, stop with the stawman stuff; Duran is unquestionably their best relief option, and nobody is asking for him to throw every close game. I know there was an availability qualifier involved. It isn't the only way, but it's the best way to give yourself a shot at another inning. The bullpen is doomed is they have to hide Pagan, Moran, and Winder over 162 games; that doesn't mean I want those guys throwing important innings if better options are available. 

And they likely would've gotten another chance in the 11th, but apparently it's more desirable to save your best bullet for a hypothetical situation, use a lesser arm, and lose in 10 innings. 

Why is it unquestioned? Because he was better for the second half last year? Lopez has allowed fewer earned runs, and fewer base runners, in more innings this year. Duran is their unquestioned best strikeout arm, but that doesn't make him their unquestioned best relief arm. Lopez has been objectively better to start this season. And if nobody is asking him to throw every close game why are we mad at him not throwing in this close game? He doesn't have to throw every close game, but he was obviously supposed to throw in this one? I'm not seeing the strawman here. If you're going to pick out 1 close game and say Rocco was wrong for not using Duran you have to be able to explain why he shouldn't pitch in all the other close games. What makes it acceptable for them to not "give themselves a shot at another inning" in other close games? Just availability? Or are there any situations where the game is close, he's available, and it's acceptable to not use him, but rely on the 3 other guys you're counting on to get high leverage outs?

If there's such a drastic drop off from Duran to Lopez, Jax, and Thielbar that it's crazy to use them instead in tie games the team is doomed. And all the managers in baseball have decided it's not the best way to win games. It's why they don't use their closers in the 9th inning or later unless they have the lead.

[KirbyDome89]

8 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Why is it unquestioned? Because he was better for the second half last year? Lopez has allowed fewer earned runs, and fewer base runners, in more innings this year. Duran is their unquestioned best strikeout arm, but that doesn't make him their unquestioned best relief arm. Lopez has been objectively better to start this season. And if nobody is asking him to throw every close game why are we mad at him not throwing in this close game? He doesn't have to throw every close game, but he was obviously supposed to throw in this one? I'm not seeing the strawman here. If you're going to pick out 1 close game and say Rocco was wrong for not using Duran you have to be able to explain why he shouldn't pitch in all the other close games. What makes it acceptable for them to not "give themselves a shot at another inning" in other close games? Just availability? Or are there any situations where the game is close, he's available, and it's acceptable to not use him, but rely on the 3 other guys you're counting on to get high leverage outs?

If there's such a drastic drop off from Duran to Lopez, Jax, and Thielbar that it's crazy to use them instead in tie games the team is doomed. And all the managers in baseball have decided it's not the best way to win games. It's why they don't use their closers in the 9th inning or later unless they have the lead.

If you want to put more stock into 13 innings than all of last year don't let me stop you. Michael Taylor is sitting at 3rd on the team in HRs, and his OPS is higher than Correa or Miranda's; are you going to crusade for him jumping into the middle of the lineup? 

If Duran is available in a close game, yes, I do want him to pitch. Is that not obvious by now? This isn't difficult, you don't need to muddy the waters here. Don't forego the chance to play your best card, i.e. your best shot at extending the game, and then get knocked out.

Oh is this the part where I set parameters and then you pick nits and pull some gotcha BS? I'll pass...

More hyperbole? Does this ever start to wear you out? Other pitchers will obviously be used in close games. Duran is the best option (particularly in that 10th inning) hence my desire to him to be used late in a tie game a la last night.

Rocco literally used Duran in the 9th inning of a tie game two weeks ago, but I guess he's not "all managers?" Idk...

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, KirbyDome89 said:

If you want to put more stock into 13 innings than all of last year don't let me stop you. Michael Taylor is sitting at 3rd on the team in HRs, and his OPS is higher than Correa or Miranda's; are you going to crusade for him jumping into the middle of the lineup? 

If Duran is available in a close game, yes, I do want him to pitch. Is that not obvious by now? This isn't difficult, you don't need to muddy the waters here. Don't forego the chance to play your best card, i.e. your best shot at extending the game, and then get knocked out.

Oh is this the part where I set parameters and then you pick nits and pull some gotcha BS? I'll pass...

More hyperbole? Does this ever start to wear you out? Other pitchers will obviously be used in close games. Duran is the best option (particularly in that 10th inning) hence my desire to him to be used late in a tie game a la last night.

Rocco literally used Duran in the 9th inning of a tie game two weeks ago, but I guess he's not "all managers?" Idk...

Jorge Lopez was a very deserving all star last year. You act like he was terrible. Duran was better in the 2nd half, but Lopez may have been the best reliever in baseball the first half. He's not Pagan or something.  And I'm pretty sure we're talking about the game Tuesday so how they're doing this year is rather important, no? I'd rather have MAT at the plate right now than Correa or Miranda, yes. Not sure why that's crazy since the other 2 are awful right now.

I'll just leave you with this: if it's so obvious that they should use Duran to keep a game tied for longer and "give them one more inning to hit" while worrying about the save later, why aren't fans up in arms about him not throwing last night in the 7th when it was tied? Or the 8th when they were only down 1? If that's the best way to win I assume you're upset at Rocco for screwing it up again last night.

[Major League Ready]

19 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

In that final batter, Ryan threw four fastballs that came in at 89, 90, 89, 90.

That's roughly 3mph slower than he was sitting earlier in the game.

It's not only about pitch count, people. The manager's job is to actually watch his pitchers out there.

Do we allow this kind of insight and rational thinking here?  Now that the theory Rocco pulled pitchers early because of a spreadsheet has been blown out of the water we need a new complaint.  Then, you go and point out the facts that suggest he was actually reacting to what was going on with pitcher and acting accordingly.   Next you are going to tell us that the other teams have players that sometimes simply beat you.  

[wabene]

14 hours ago, Greglw3 said:

Through my years following baseball, I’ve never heard of a tired pitcher that only gave up 1 hit. It’s always been when the pitcher starts getting hit, you know he’s done. Terry Francona and Jim Leyland would routinely let their best pitchers throw 115-120 pitches.

I think the other writer was right about Jax. He kicked away a game recently when he was obviously struggling mightily, missing badly and consistently with his slider. A good manager doesn’t sit passively in the dugout while the game quite predictably goes down the tubes. He gets Jax out of there. 

Other examples are Rocco leaving in Martin Perez to give up about 8 straight hits and 8-10 runs, last year I think it was Ryan he left in for 10 runs.

Another perfect example of Earlate©. Rocco pulls em too early and leaves em in too long. Sounds logical to me. This is a game Rocco cannot win. Fun game. 

[Greglw3]

5 minutes ago, wabene said:

Another perfect example of Earlate©. Rocco pulls em too early and leaves em in too long. Sounds logical to me. This is a game Rocco cannot win. Fun game. 

You're speaking as if a knowledgeable baseball person can’t think he’s a below average manager. My opinion is in isoation not affected by any other person. Both can be true in certain situations.

[Rod Carews Birthday]

If everything goes perfectly according to script, the Twins win every game.  Things are ALWAYS going to go wrong in a game and that’s why teams lose. It happens.  Get used to it.  It isn’t always someone’s fault.   It is also said (correctly) that a manager gets too much credit when things go well and too much blame when things go poorly.  That is most certainly true here.  So far, this team is winning games and is in first place in the division, even without everything going perfectly.  On the whole, I’ll take that.  The manager can’t have screwed things up too badly.

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Jorge Lopez was a very deserving all star last year. You act like he was terrible. Duran was better in the 2nd half, but Lopez may have been the best reliever in baseball the first half. He's not Pagan or something.  And I'm pretty sure we're talking about the game Tuesday so how they're doing this year is rather important, no? I'd rather have MAT at the plate right now than Correa or Miranda, yes. Not sure why that's crazy since the other 2 are awful right now.

I'll just leave you with this: if it's so obvious that they should use Duran to keep a game tied for longer and "give them one more inning to hit" while worrying about the save later, why aren't fans up in arms about him not throwing last night in the 7th when it was tied? Or the 8th when they were only down 1? If that's the best way to win I assume you're upset at Rocco for screwing it up again last night.

Well, as a matter of fact, it IS odd we lost in extra innings and then  a game that was tied late, back to back, after an off day, and Duran pitched in neither.

You're the one arguing for situational reliever use rather than set roles, no? While simultaneously arguing against using Duran? 

[tlkriens]

Using Lopez in the 7th inning is completely ok. It just wasn't his night. The biggest head scratcher of the night was Brock Stewart in the 9th of a tied game. Where did that come from? Just a stunner to me and the reason I wrote the article. Same thing with Moran coming in during the 10th inning at Boston two weeks ago. Just seems like there were better options and two winnable games that were lost.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, USAFChief said:

Well, as a matter of fact, it IS odd we lost in extra innings and then  a game that was tied late, back to back, after an off day, and Duran pitched in neither.

You're the one arguing for situational reliever use rather than set roles, no? While simultaneously arguing against using Duran? 

I argue for set roles that include situational relievers, and not set inning roles for everyone. I argue for a closer (Duran this year), a primary high leverage arm that's used in the 6th, 7th, or 8th depending on what is setting up as the highest leverage situation (Lopez this year), 2 secondary righty high leverage guys (only have Jax in that role this year), 1 lefty high leverage guy (Thielbar), 1 multi-inning arm used in 2 or 3 inning stints (Pagan, Alcala, and Moran have all been used in this role), 1 "middle reliever" (also the trio just mentioned), and 1 long guy who can go 3+ innings.

Mostly I'm arguing that blaming Rocco for Tuesday's lose because he didn't use Duran to keep a game tied on the road when he used his 3 other high leverage arms, and his 1 non-high leverage arm didn't allow a run, is reaching. People's need to blame someone for every loss doesn't make sense to me. Sometimes you just lose. In baseball the best teams still lose 50+ times. It happens. I don't think Rocco is a great manager, but he's also not this inept, bumbling manager that people make him out to be. Rocco not using Duran Tuesday was defensible in many ways, but people don't like him so they want to chalk this up as another mark against him when the offense managed 2 runs in 10 innings, and weren't able to score the free runner on 2nd. That's not Rocco's fault.

[chpettit19]

11 minutes ago, tlkriens said:

Using Lopez in the 7th inning is completely ok. It just wasn't his night. The biggest head scratcher of the night was Brock Stewart in the 9th of a tied game. Where did that come from? Just a stunner to me and the reason I wrote the article. Same thing with Moran coming in during the 10th inning at Boston two weeks ago. Just seems like there were better options and two winnable games that were lost.

Brock Stewart didn't allow a run. Why are we upset that he pitched a guy who didn't allow a run? Jovani Moran pitched the 10th in Boston after Lopez, Thielbar, Jax, and Duran had all already pitched. Was Pagan so drastically better that we need to blame it on Rocco?

[IndianaTwin]

23 minutes ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

... It isn’t always someone’s fault....

Making a statement like this violates virtually every rule of the internet. 🤣

[Rod Carews Birthday]

According to the OP and several others on this rather long string, Rocco Baldelli is a poor manager and is holding back the team.  I disagree.  I think the combination of mostly happy productive players having a mostly productive collective season (not individual necessarily) and putting the team in first place at this point is indicative of the manager not being the problem, if there really is a "PROBLEM" that is anything out of the ordinary for any baseball team short of the '27 Yankees. "Managing" is about dealing with the big picture items and the team over the long haul, not micromanaging every single thing.  (I had one of those once, it wasn't pretty).  Rocco is more likely an above average manager based on results alone.  Were he let go by the Twins, I'm certain he would get a new job very quickly.

That being said, every "problem" must have a solution.  Who do you propose that is alive (no to Casey Stengel or Billy Martin), available (probably can't hire Terry Francona or Dusty Baker), proven (remember, we know they are better), willing (probably not Joe Torre), and has the abilities (no to posters on Twins Daily, but hey I'm retired!) to take the job?  Surely, if Baldelli is that terrible, the list of candidates is endless. 

[tlkriens]

57 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Brock Stewart didn't allow a run. Why are we upset that he pitched a guy who didn't allow a run? Jovani Moran pitched the 10th in Boston after Lopez, Thielbar, Jax, and Duran had all already pitched. Was Pagan so drastically better that we need to blame it on Rocco?

The process of how Stewart got through the inning wasn't great with three walks with one intentional. Doesn't give me great hope for his future. It's early and we'll see.

In Boston, I would have thrown Duran for a second inning. He got through the 9th on 19 pitches and he was the best option. Sometimes I wish Rocco showed more urgency to win the game instead of just going by the book. Jax pitched his one inning, so he's done for the night. Same with Duran. After the Boston loss, Duran didn't pitch until five days later. It should be ok to throw a RP more than one inning or 30 pitches sometimes. It's also ok to pull a guy mid inning if it looks like he doesn't have it. Those are two of my biggest complaints about Rocco.

The first huge Rocco bullpen moment for me was Game 1 against the Yankees in the ALDS. Berrois goes four innings and 88 pitches. Pull him. That's fine. But then Rocco goes to Zack Littell? 3-3 game in the 5th in New York that's that's what he goes with? That was the best shot of win a game that series and you to go Zack Littell? Twins would never get closer to winning a game. They were down 8-0 after three innings in game two and down 2-0 after three innings of game three. Twins were never tied the rest of the series after game one.

It's just these little things that add up in my evaluation of Rocco. Twins maybe still lose on Tuesday to the White Sox, but I believe they beat Boston two weeks ago if Duran is back out there instead of Moran. The Boston loss was in the middle of 6 losses in 7 games and this White Sox stretch seems like the might be the start of another losing skid going into Cleveland. You never know how important a win or loss might be and what it might lead too.

[Craig Arko]

50 minutes ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

According to the OP and several others on this rather long string, Rocco Baldelli is a poor manager and is holding back the team.  I disagree.  I think the combination of mostly happy productive players having a mostly productive collective season (not individual necessarily) and putting the team in first place at this point is indicative of the manager not being the problem, if there really is a "PROBLEM" that is anything out of the ordinary for any baseball team short of the '27 Yankees. "Managing" is about dealing with the big picture items and the team over the long haul, not micromanaging every single thing.  (I had one of those once, it wasn't pretty).  Rocco is more likely an above average manager based on results alone.  Were he let go by the Twins, I'm certain he would get a new job very quickly.

That being said, every "problem" must have a solution.  Who do you propose that is alive (no to Casey Stengel or Billy Martin), available (probably can't hire Terry Francona or Dusty Baker), proven (remember, we know they are better), willing (probably not Joe Torre), and has the abilities (no to posters on Twins Daily, but hey I'm retired!) to take the job?  Surely, if Baldelli is that terrible, the list of candidates is endless. 

I like Baldelli. He’s a good player’s manager who is still learning about the job. When you learn, you make mistakes. When you stop learning, they hold a wake for you.

Still, he won’t be here forever and I think Toby Gardenhire will be a decent successor if no one else snaps him up first.

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, tlkriens said:

The process of how Stewart got through the inning wasn't great with three walks with one intentional. Doesn't give me great hope for his future. It's early and we'll see.

In Boston, I would have thrown Duran for a second inning. He got through the 9th on 19 pitches and he was the best option. Sometimes I wish Rocco showed more urgency to win the game instead of just going by the book. Jax pitched his one inning, so he's done for the night. Same with Duran. After the Boston loss, Duran didn't pitch until five days later. It should be ok to throw a RP more than one inning or 30 pitches sometimes. It's also ok to pull a guy mid inning if it looks like he doesn't have it. Those are two of my biggest complaints about Rocco.

The first huge Rocco bullpen moment for me was Game 1 against the Yankees in the ALDS. Berrois goes four innings and 88 pitches. Pull him. That's fine. But then Rocco goes to Zack Littell? 3-3 game in the 5th in New York that's that's what he goes with? That was the best shot of win a game that series and you to go Zack Littell? Twins would never get closer to winning a game. They were down 8-0 after three innings in game two and down 2-0 after three innings of game three. Twins were never tied the rest of the series after game one.

It's just these little things that add up in my evaluation of Rocco. Twins maybe still lose on Tuesday to the White Sox, but I believe they beat Boston two weeks ago if Duran is back out there instead of Moran. The Boston loss was in the middle of 6 losses in 7 games and this White Sox stretch seems like the might be the start of another losing skid going into Cleveland. You never know how important a win or loss might be and what it might lead too.

It wasn't a clean inning by any means, but he didn't give up a run. Being mad at, or however you want to express your negative feeling towards, Rocco for a guy not allowing a run feels like a little much.

It is ok to throw RPs more than an inning. I don't think the idea of throwing Duran a 2nd inning there is crazy. But Rocco does throw guys more than 1 inning. Duran himself did it 13 times last year. Jax did it 13 times as well. Alcala did it in 4 of his 6 appearances this year. Pagan in 4 of his 9. Moran 4 of 10. Thielbar twice. I don't have nearly enough information on Duran, Jax, and Lopez to know what kind of conversations they've had, and why they seem disinclined to use those 3 for more than 1 inning, but as an overall approach Rocco clearly isn't afraid to use guys for more than an inning. As for pulling relievers in the middle of innings that's a much more complicated situation. What inning are they in? What's the situation? What has the pen usage been like recently? How many more games until an off day? Burning through a whole bunch of pen arms in 1 game can have some pretty poor effects on future games. We saw it last year. I don't want a repeat of that. Depending who the guy is there should be some leash to allow them to get through 1 inning. But I also like having Jax, Lopez, and Duran available for more games. There's a tradeoff there. I'm not someone who subscribes to the idea that you need to treat every game like it's darn near a "must win." There's 162 games. They're going to lose a bunch more. And you're going to disagree with a bunch more of Rocco's decisions. But being upset about putting in a guy who didn't give up a run feels like just reaching for things to complain about because you don't like Rocco.

I mean that game was 5 years ago and it was his first playoff game. It may be ok to cut him a little slack and move on at this point.

I don't think Rocco is some world beater. If he's fired tomorrow I'll thank him for his efforts and move on. He's whatever as far as I'm concerned. But he's also not completely inept. Whether we agree with the reasoning or not, there's reasons for everything he does, and that's all we can really ask for. They're informed decisions made with every intent to give the team the best chance to win. But you also never know how important not throwing a pitcher another inning is. Ryan going another inning Tuesday after his velo tanked at the end of the 6th could've lead to an arm strain. Maybe they have to push his next start back and then we're looking at Headrick, Sands, Winder, or SWR making his next start. Maybe it leads to an IL stint and those guys are making multiple starts instead of Ryan. Did Rocco save us from that situation? No way to know, but it's possible. The baseball season is far too long to ride the emotional rollercoaster game to game, or dissect every little move. If they lose the division by 1 game plenty of people will point back at individual games or decisions and blame Rocco for blowing it. But there's no way to point back at a game and say his decision caused them to win, and thus be so close to the division. But if decisions can lose games they also have to be able to win them. But not many people are tracking the decisions he made that they disagree with that turned out well. I mean you're counting the Stewart decision against Rocco despite him not giving up a run. Hard to be considered even an average manager when the only possible outcome is "you screwed up."

[JD-TWINS]

22 hours ago, CRF said:

My opinion is...which combined with $20 will get you coffee at Starbucks...is that they can both be bad. Very bad. Of the two, in general, I think pulling a guy too late is worse. Last night, I think Ryan was pulled too soon. I would have let him start the 7th and see what happens. You can always pull him right away if he gets into trouble. Maybe it works out...maybe it doesn't, but last night sure didn't. Btw...I have no idea how much coffee is at Starbucks, but I know I can't afford it. 

The idea in today’s game is to reduce risk & not use gut feelings. That’s reality. Ryan had a 10 pitch at bat in 6th & got a double play to get out of inning. It’s a 1 run game and the least stress for a high leverage guy out of the Pen is to start with bases empty, not after Ryan gives up a single or double……..Lopez was set-up to succeed and didn’t - not the manager’s issue!!

In hindsight it’s been made public on broadcast Wednesday that Duran wasn’t available Tuesday. The best way for us to take a 1 run lead through the last 3 innings is to use our 3 best remaining relievers. Lopez gave up two & we needed to adjust.

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

The idea in today’s game is to reduce risk & not use gut feelings. That’s reality. Ryan had a 10 pitch at bat in 6th & got a double play to get out of inning. It’s a 1 run game and the least stress for a high leverage guy out of the Pen is to start with bases empty, not after Ryan gives up a single or double……..Lopez was set-up to succeed and didn’t - not the manager’s issue!!

In hindsight it’s been made public on broadcast Wednesday that Duran wasn’t available Tuesday. The best way for us to take a 1 run lead through the last 3 innings is to use our 3 best remaining relievers. Lopez gave up two & we needed to adjust.

Dang, I don't listen to the broadcasts so didn't hear that. Now I've wasted a day and a half arguing about something that wasn't even an option. The internet wins again.

[wsnydes]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Dang, I don't listen to the broadcasts so didn't hear that. Now I've wasted a day and a half arguing about something that wasn't even an option. The internet wins again.

Like Mother Nature, the internet is a very formidable foe.  Engage at your own peril!