Front Page: Michael Pineda Suspended 60 Games For Banned Substance

[laloesch]

I looked at the MLB contract, particularly the provisions summarized in post 110 in this thread. Based on that and some articles I read, it appears to me then the correct interpretation is that the reduction in games could only be the result of an affirmative finding that Pineda did not act with intent to mask an unlawful agent. Now that is a finding the arbitrator made. You and I are both lawyers the significant trial experience so we both know that abitrators can make mistakes, but it seems unlikely in this case. The more likely result is that Pineda put on compelling evidence that he took weight loss pills he got from a friend to lose weight on that turned out to contain a banned diuretic.

Now, I agree with the posters who say that Pineda acted stupidly and that professional athletes should only take supplements of any kind after being vetted and approved by the team. Having said that, the record is rife with players who achieved both good and bad results by listening to a family member, or an uncle, or someone to tell them how they should adjust their swing, train in the offseason, or a number of other things. I'm as irritated as everyone else because I think this really affects the team chances of success in the postseason but I think we all need to remember that we're dealing with a human being, not a robot, and that the evidence at least suggest that this is not the result of a defect in character but the result of human frailty.

I appreciate your insight on this and your professional experience but you are speculating. These players know the rules and they have agents, lawyers and teams of trainers adressing their health, nutrition, etc. He's no longer the poor kid from DR with zero resources or he's just plain dumb. He's now 30 years old and has made millions and millions of dollars as a professional athlete. He knew the rules, the risks, but got caught, simple as that. No sympathy from me. Edited September 8, 2019 by laloesch

[drivlikejehu]

There's really no way to excuse this, even partially. The substance issue is huge for professional baseball players . . . they know full well that they can't just take something without a very high degree of caution. The fact it may have been "accidental" doesn't change the fact that Pineda acted with complete disregard for the impact *he knew* it could have on the team.

 

Pineda is never going to pitch for the Twins again, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

[jkcarew]

So, if you don’t want Pineda back in 2020 based on morals, you must really hate having Polanco on the team. And if you don’t want him back because you think his performance will collapse coming off the suspension, then you’ve ignored Polanco. I think you’re entitled to either opinion. But I don’t share either.

[Mr. Brooks]

So, if you don’t want Pineda back in 2020 based on morals, you must really hate having Polanco on the team. And if you don’t want him back because you think his performance will collapse coming off the suspension, then you’ve ignored Polanco. I think you’re entitled to either opinion. But I don’t share either.

I don't believe I've seen any posters say that they don't want him back on moral grounds.

 

I have seen some posters who seem to suggest they don't want him back because he torpedoed his teammates shot at winning a world series title. Which wasn't the case when Polanco got popped.

[D.C Twins]

 

If he knew that he was taking a banned substance then I suspect that the reason would not matter to me. So I think that we are in agreement on that point.

 

If he thought that he was taking a perfectly OK diet pill, would that matter to you?

 

I think that his intent matters to the extent that people want to judge his character.

 

Again, Hydrochlorothiazide is a prescription medication that does not just accidentally make its way into over the counter supplements.

 

Dehydration is not advantageous for an elite athlete....just ask Gibson he likely has had to fight against it with his Chron's disease.

 

He would need to be counterbalancing with aggressive hydration (through knowledge of what he was doing to himself) to maintain his performance (which has been surprisingly good as of late)

 

This is not that complicated. Though Malcolm Gladwell just released a book about how human beings tend to defer toward believing what be people say over logic. So maybe this story could be added to the paperback

 

This is not complicated

 

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

If he knew it was banned, does it matter why?

This is my take on it. I honestly don't care if he tried to cheat. I literally do not care why he ingests pretty much anything.

 

What I care about is that the man has made tens of millions of dollars and can't use MLB's own support network to clear EVERYTHING he puts in his body. Or that he doesn't have a specialist on retainer to call and ask about these things whenever necessary; god knows he has the money to pay for it.

 

He needs to be smarter than that. All players need to be smarter than that. It's 2019; there are literally ZERO excuses left for this kind of thing to happen and now Pineda's incompetence has potentially cost the team a postseason run.

 

Everyone involved in this should be furious at Michael: the front office, his teammates, the Twins fan base.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Brock Beauchamp

[laloesch]

I don't believe I've seen any posters say that they don't want him back on moral grounds.

I have seen some posters who seem to suggest they don't want him back because he torpedoed his teammates shot at winning a world series title. Which wasn't the case when Polanco got popped.

I think the important distinction is that us (the fans) do not have a say in what the team does. I remember plenty of us fans being upset when Polanco "got popped" but again it's not our decision at the end of the day what the team does simple as that. For all we know the Twins may overlook this hick-up and sign him for 2020 but it doesn't change the fact that he screwed up royally and cost them dearly in their chances to win a world series title. Edited September 8, 2019 by laloesch

[Otto von Ballpark]

I agree, this team should do some bullpenning down the stretch. I might even give Poppin a call and try to use him along with your four listed above for the yeoman's work. I might try using Graterol as an opener as well.

Poppen is ineligible, since he just went on the 60-day DL on Sep. 1st.

[Mike Sixel]

 

What that really boils down to is that this is not a situation where you have a guy using a PED to try to improve performance. He took some over-the-counter diet pills to try to lose weight. We can call that stupid and the results for the team are significant, but we should not say this is a player trying to cheat.

 

Playing Devils advocate, you don't know this for certain. It may be true it may not be true.

 

To be clear, the substance is banned. Taking it is cheating.

[Mike Sixel]

So, if you don’t want Pineda back in 2020 based on morals, you must really hate having Polanco on the team. And if you don’t want him back because you think his performance will collapse coming off the suspension, then you’ve ignored Polanco. I think you’re entitled to either opinion. But I don’t share either.

How old was Polanco? Did he miss three years of playing a full season? Not even a little comparable.

[yarnivek1972]

What that really boils down to is that this is not a situation where you have a guy using a PED to try to improve performance. He took some over-the-counter diet pills to try to lose weight. We can call that stupid and the results for the team are significant, but we should not say this is a player trying to cheat.

Playing Devils advocate, you don't know this for certain. It may be true it may not be true.

 

I don’t think it is at all likely a MLB player would be actively trying to lose weight DURING the season. The 162 game, 6 month season is such a grind that players lose weight easily without “help”. Even a starting pitcher who only toes the rubber every fifth day. On their “days off” they are running, they do some throwing and other exercise and weight training.

[jkcarew]

I don't believe I've seen any posters say that they don't want him back on moral grounds.

I have seen some posters who seem to suggest they don't want him back because he torpedoed his teammates shot at winning a world series title. Which wasn't the case when Polanco got popped.

So Polanco gets a break because he calculated that the team probably wouldn’t be good, so it was worth the chance? (I know you aren’t necessarily making that argument.)

[USAFChief]

Can we stop referring to this substance as "over the counter?"

[jkcarew]

How old was Polanco? Did he miss three years of playing a full season? Not even a little comparable.

Why would age make a difference? And how does Pineda’s missed time due to injuries make this worse? They both made very bad decisions that hurt their team. The fact that this hurts worse than Polanco’s incident is incidental, IMO...and something that Polonco could not have known when he did his thing.

[Mike Sixel]

Why would age make a difference? And how does Pineda’s missed time due to injuries make this worse? They both made very bad decisions that hurt their team. The fact that this hurts worse than Polanco’s incident is incidental, IMO...and something that Polonco could not have known when he did his thing.

Because Pineda isn't in rookie ball. He's getting older and breaking down. It couldn't be more different.

[gman]

And here I was hoping an ex-Yankee would help us beat that Yankee curse. Time for another plan.

 

Maybe we could give up and trade who ever is not coming back next year to the real World Series Contenders. Might get some great offers. .

[jkcarew]

Because Pineda isn't in rookie ball. He's getting older and breaking down. It couldn't be more different.

He’ll be 31 next year with less than 900 career innings on his arm. I do think there are obvious questions regarding his conditioning and his body holding up...and those questions were there before this incident.

[Mike Sixel]

He’ll be 31 next year with less than 900 career innings on his arm. I do think there are obvious questions regarding his conditioning and his body holding up...and those questions were there before this incident.

Hard to have innings if you miss year after year.

[laloesch]

Again, Hydrochlorothiazide is a prescription medication that does not just accidentally make its way into over the counter supplements.

 

Dehydration is not advantageous for an elite athlete....just ask Gibson he likely has had to fight against it with his Chron's disease.

 

He would need to be counterbalancing with aggressive hydration (through knowledge of what he was doing to himself) to maintain his performance (which has been surprisingly good as of late)

 

This is not that complicated. Though Malcolm Gladwell just released a book about how human beings tend to defer toward believing what be people say over logic. So maybe this story could be added to the paperback

 

This is not complicated

THANKYOU! Finally someone that knows some of the science behind the substance and is not twisting this and making excuses. That drug is designed to induce excessive urination hence the term diuretic. Diuretics are not diet pills. They are used to reduce fluids in patiences suffering from kidney disease, liver disease, heart failure, etc. The only reason an athlete would take such as substance is to cause excessive urination and cleanse the body of some other substance. Edited September 9, 2019 by laloesch

[Nine of twelve]

 

To be clear, the substance is banned. Taking it is cheating.

While this is true it is over-simplification.

Knowing that you are taking a substance that you know is banned is trying to cheat.

Not knowing that you are taking a substance that you know is banned is not trying to cheat.

Knowing that you are taking a substance that you don't know is banned is not trying to cheat.

Knowing that you are not taking a banned substance is trying not to cheat.

 

 

[Linus]

Wise people judge others by what they do, not by what they say.

[USAFChief]

While this is true it is over-simplification.

Knowing that you are taking a substance that you know is banned is trying to cheat.

Not knowing that you are taking a substance that you know is banned is not trying to cheat.

Knowing that you are taking a substance that you don't know is banned is not trying to cheat.

Knowing that you are not taking a banned substance is trying not to cheat.

so what you're saying is, we have the known knowns, the known unknowns, and the unknown unknowns?

[KirbyDome89]

 

The way the rules work, the 20 game reduction in the suspension actually does mean something. The arbitrator is only empowered to reduce the suspension if he specifically finds that the player was not guilty of negligence or try to hide his use of a banned substance. In other words, the arbitrator found that Pineda just did something really stupid; he ingested over-the-counter diet pills that contained a banned diuretic. Doing so is a no intent offense. If you adjust the diueretic, you get suspended.

What that really boils down to is that this is not a situation where you have a guy using a PED to try to improve performance. He took some over-the-counter diet pills to try to lose weight. We can call that stupid and the results for the team are significant, but we should not say this is a player trying to cheat.

Are we really supposed to believe that Pineda was so concerned about his weight in season that he reached the point of seeking out prescription medication but never once thought to bring his concerns to the team that employs him and has access to cutting edge fitness centers & consultants, or to physicians associated with the team that could easily and safely prescribe medication if it was a viable option? 

 

The drug he tested positive for has nothing to do with actual weight loss, and it's prescribed, not purchased over the counter.  

 

He's also been pitching professionally for the last 12 years. At age 30 did he suddenly forget that taking pills that an "acquittance," gives you isn't a wise decision?

 

If the argument is negligence, then it wasn't just one bad decision, it was a slew of them, and if you buy into Occam's razor it seems to be an unlikely defense. 

[glunn]

 

Are we really supposed to believe that Pineda was so concerned about his weight in season that he reached the point of seeking out prescription medication but never once thought to bring his concerns to the team that employs him and has access to cutting edge fitness centers & consultants, or to physicians associated with the team that could easily and safely prescribe medication if it was a viable option? 

 

The drug he tested positive for has nothing to do with actual weight loss, and it's prescribed, not purchased over the counter.  

 

He's also been pitching professionally for the last 12 years. At age 30 did he suddenly forget that taking pills that an "acquittance," gives you isn't a wise decision?

 

If the argument is negligence, then it wasn't just one bad decision, it was a slew of them, and if you buy into Occam's razor it seems to be an unlikely defense. 

Yet the arbitrator found that Pineda made a compelling case that he was not using the diuretic to mask PED use.

 

Also, you are assuming that Pineda sought out the drug, but for all we know it was offered to him as something harmless to quickly lose some weight. And for all we know, the Twins were telling him what he needed to do to lose weight, but he stupidly took a shortcut that he thought was harmless, because he was not taking PEDs.

 

We are missing many pieces of the puzzle. Presumably, the arbitrator had access to some of those pieces. I am not saying that Pineda was not masking PEDs, but I do believe that there is strong reason to believe that this was a product of stupidity, not cheating.

[h2oface]

This will all blow over. Look how much we all love Polanco and Cruz, now. It is like it never happened.

 

I have to be impressed at how well Pineda has been performing while all this was happening in the background, unbeknownst to so many that would have liked to have known.... or maybe they did and are just pretending they didn't.  

 

I wonder what color the pills were....... were they red, or were they blue?

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by h2oface

[h2oface]

Amazing people don't get suspended for pitch framing... that is clearly trying to cheat, and not surreptitiously, but blatantly and in clear view for all to see, and on virtually every pitch trying to make something something it is not to create unfair advantage and trick the poor pitch judge, who is just guessing anyway. I wonder if umpires take PED's for sight? Are they ever tested? I stray and digress.

 

Why do the results - the investigation and suspension process - need to be so secret after the suspension is decided and enforced? Why can't the transcripts be released? Shouldn't it then become public knowledge? Pineda could also just give interviews, too.

 

And almost all perscription drugs can be acquired over the counter, without a perscription...... just not the counter at the pharmacy.

Edited September 9, 2019 by h2oface

[Nine of twelve]

 

Why do the results - the investigation and suspension process - need to be so secret after the suspension is decided and enforced? Why can't the transcripts be released? Shouldn't it then become public knowledge? Pineda could also just give interviews, too.

 

Very often legal agreements include terms to keep parts of the agreement confidential. This is not something like government in which the public is entitled to certain information. While professional sports are very much in the public eye they are still private businesses and as such players and management are not legally required to release any information not specified in the CAB.

[wabene]

I don’t think it is at all likely a MLB player would be actively trying to lose weight DURING the season. The 162 game, 6 month season is such a grind that players lose weight easily without “help”. Even a starting pitcher who only toes the rubber every fifth day. On their “days off” they are running, they do some throwing and other exercise and weight training.

All it takes is one look at Pineda to see that the best thing he could do to enhance his performance is to drop fifty pounds. I am certain he is metabolically the opposite of, say, Gibson.

[Only Here in Negative]

 

I don't believe I've seen any posters say that they don't want him back on moral grounds.

I have seen some posters who seem to suggest they don't want him back because he torpedoed his teammates shot at winning a world series title. Which wasn't the case when Polanco got popped.

 

That's a super tough position to take. So Pineda is worse than Polanco because the other 24 guys on the team played better that year? That's an interpretation of moral relativity that I'd have a hard time with. There's always a gradient but that's a pretty stark differentiation based on something that is not in someone's control. I think we should judge someone who kills someone while driving drunk a bit differently based on circumstances that impacted the event but not because the person they killed happened to be the town librarian and mother of two instead of an elderly drunk.

 

And even if you are comfortable with that level of relativism, the timeline doesn't work well for it. It'd be one thing if he held up a liquor store last Sunday when he knew full well that the team was doing well. Pineda presumably tested positive much earlier in the year when the Twins' playoff chances were not set in stone. Polanco tested positive in March 2018, which indicates he was taking it after a playoff season, at a time when many thought the Twins would be ready to take the next step. So both of them really screwed over their teams at times when the playoffs were not imminent but were a clear expectation.

[Only Here in Negative]

 

Amazing people don't get suspended for pitch framing... that is clearly trying to cheat, and not surreptitiously, but blatantly and in clear view for all to see, and on virtually every pitch trying to make something something it is not to create unfair advantage and trick the poor pitch judge, who is just guessing anyway. I wonder if umpires take PED's for sight? Are they ever tested? I stray and digress.

 

Why do the results - the investigation and suspension process - need to be so secret after the suspension is decided and enforced? Why can't the transcripts be released? Shouldn't it then become public knowledge? Pineda could also just give interviews, too.

 

And almost all perscription drugs can be acquired over the counter, without a perscription...... just not the counter at the pharmacy.

 

That's a privacy issue as negotiated with the MLB Players Union. Most actions with employers regardless of profession are not made public. It would be a pretty clear invasion of privacy to do so. These types of proceedings would regularly include person information, health information, etc.