Team Chemistry issues?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Yes - look at 2007.  It should have been a year building on the big 2006 run.  When the season ended up being a disappointment, Santana and Torii being lame duck players was dominating story and in every city they visited Torii would give an interview of how he would love to play there.  I like Torii, but I was ready for him to shut up by the end of the season.

Great example. And then no one expected much from 2008 but they went to a game 163

[TheLeviathan]

This thread makes me long for that March tradition of "Mauer buys new sunglasses to help with concussions" article we've all come to love the last 20 years.

[gil4]

 

I like Torii, but I was ready for him to shut up by the end of the season.

He still hasn't done it, for better or (mostly) worse.

 

I will give him credit for one thing - After his interview with Jim Rome a few years ago, I will never think about leg cramps the same way again. (Rome's follow-up question should have been "Have you ever had to deal with bilateral leg weakness.")

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I’m curious about Doogie’s source. I don’t doubt that the clubhouse atmosphere is rough, but the prescription seems odd. Seems like something someone leftover from the old regime might say who has sour grapes, but I don’t really have anything to base that on.

 

I’m kinda disappointed (if true) that Dozier would say openly he’s happy to get out of that clubhouse. I thought more of him than that.

 

I have some concerns over the manager. All this stuff paints a bad picture, especially with his up and down record and how heavily veteran this roster was.

 

I’m interested in how Levine responds in the offseason. How Sano and Buxton mature and respond, how the roster gets supplemented around the core. If Gibson gets extended. If the one year deal trend continues. Levine should be a part of the scrutiny too

[Otto von Ballpark]

When they brought in Matt Belisle, it was clearly a leadership and clubhouse thing. At that time, I was told that the clubhouse was a mess. There were some obvious players mentioned.

Does adding Belisle seem like the appropriate response? If you have obvious sources of the problem, I would think you would want to start removing those.

[USAFChief]

 

i think winning covers up a lot of things... Losing can bring it out. I definitely do not think that it was anyone's lack of effort or passion, as I've seen up above. I'm reading a lot of assumptions in many of these things. 

 

When they brought in Matt Belisle, it was clearly a leadership and clubhouse thing. At that time, I was told that the clubhouse was a mess. There were some obvious players mentioned. I don't think the manager is an issue,  and someone up above wondered if Molitor was leading some of this clubhouse stuff... Why would he want a disgruntled clubhouse? They all want to be happy and comfortable at work and be in a positive and encouraging clubhouse. They're all competitive. When things are going bad, things happen and get said in large part because it is a room with so many very competitive guys who hate losing.  

The clubhouse was a mess, and you don't think the manager bears ANY responsibility for that?

 

He's "the manager."

[Dman]

 

The clubhouse was a mess, and you don't think the manager bears ANY responsibility for that?

 

He's "the manager."

 

I tend to agree.  At work managers\upper management\HR set the tone for work behavior.  If there are conflicts HR gets involved and try's to change things.  If there are issue in the clubhouse and everyone knows about it then wouldn't steps be taken to change it?  

 

I have no idea what is going on and I take Seth at his word that there are\were problems but this whole thing doesn't add up to me.  I don't really know how people are defining mess.  Is it just one person who is a problem and that is the mess?  Are players at each others throats?  Is it just an unspoken mess?  I'll probably never know, But if there still is a mess the manager\management should be trying to resolve it.  One of the managers biggest jobs is to keep messes out of the clubhouse.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

One of the managers biggest jobs is to keep messes out of the clubhouse.

Maybe, maybe not, since the manager doesn't bring in the players. Unless you are thinking of the situation with the White Sox a few years ago and a player letting his kid run loose everywhere.

[Shaitan]

This doesn't surprise me in the least.

 

All MLB teams are filled with professional major league players (even KC and BAL). When a team underperforms, it's due IN PART to intangibles.

 

I'm stressing "in part" because the team is bad this year for a combination of many reasons, not any single item.

[nicksaviking]

There could be/have been some bad apples in the clubhouse and I'd prefer there weren't any. At the same time I've advocated for years to get the best players and not everybody has to be a boy scout.

 

But I really want a new manager, so if this is more leverage used to get one, I guess I'll selfishly roll with it.

[Dman]

 

Maybe, maybe not, since the manager doesn't bring in the players. Unless you are thinking of the situation with the White Sox a few years ago and a player letting his kid run loose everywhere.

 

Sure the manager can't be everywhere and control every situation but if the conflict is well known you just turn a blind eye?  I guess I don't understand that kind of response.  That seems weak to me.  That is like a teacher letting someone bully the classroom and not doing anything about it.  The teacher\manager has authority.  Use it.

[Number3]

Per Dave the Dastardly, "Chemistry starts at the top."

 

The Twins not only do not have a culture of winning, there is and has not been even an expectation of winning. Ownership/management, for whatever reason, places winning baseball games very low on the priority list even though the business they are in is MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL. Last year the players got fired up enough after dumping Kintzler, to have a great August and the manager gets credit for it.

This year the players should rightfully say, fine, we get to go home at the end of September and who cares what happens between now and then. If that is bad chemistry the blame goes right to the top and the manager they have just plays along.

This team needs to be sold and bought by someone who actually cares about the game of baseball.

[Tomj14]

From my college baseball days. I can tell you when your team has high expectations and the guys playing are sucking the guys not playing start getting pissed they aren't getting a chance.

So maybe that has something to do with this years chemistry. For example I am guessing quite a few are friends with Vargas and they see Morrison being terrible and they are thinking Kennys could be doing that for way less money? IDK

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Sure the manager can't be everywhere and control every situation but if the conflict is well known you just turn a blind eye?  I guess I don't understand that kind of response.  That seems weak to me.  That is like a teacher letting someone bully the classroom and not doing anything about it.  The teacher\manager has authority.  Use it.

I don't disagree but I think the difference is scale. Players are making a ton of money and usually have egos. If they care more about their own performance it can become a problem.

[gocgo]

Lot's of speculation...what I know is that Dozier had a great debut last night in Dodger blue and that makes me happy.

[Seth Stohs]

 

Does adding Belisle seem like the appropriate response? If you have obvious sources of the problem, I would think you would want to start removing those.

 

Maybe... depends on how talented those players might be... 

[Squirrel]

Lot's of speculation...what I know is that Dozier had a great debut last night in Dodger blue and that makes me happy.

That give s me mixed emotions, tbh.

[Squirrel]

Maybe... depends on how talented those players might be...

 

Wish I knew more, but know I won’t ever.

 

I also wonder about Dozier’s leadership abilities. I don’t say that to point a finger at him, because I’m not. I say it because he seemed to step into a role when there clearly wasn’t anyone, and maybe he assumed a role that wasn’t fully suited to him? Right or wrong, I could see where that would lead to problems, especially with some of the new people coming in.

[nicksaviking]

 

Maybe... depends on how talented those players might be... 

 

Definitely has to be a balance, and I've always leaned much more heavily to the talent side over personality and I was never on board with what appeared to be a desire for more 'veteran leaders' over the young athletes.

 

However, I might have to do a bit of re-evaluating, but it would probably be more along the lines of "I'll still take the talented surely jerks, but I'll try to avoid the malcontents and disinterested".

 

Not that anyone on or previously on the club necessarily fit into either of those categories.

[Vanimal46]

The clubhouse was a mess, and you don't think the manager bears ANY responsibility for that?

 

He's "the manager."

Concur. That makes no sense to me. No matter what line of work you're in, if your subordinates are not performing, AND causing issues within the organization, the manager's on the hot seat.

[nicksaviking]

 

Wish I knew more, but know I won’t ever.

I also wonder about Dozier’s leadership abilities. I don’t say that to point a finger at him, because I’m not. I say it because he seemed to step into a role when there clearly wasn’t anyone, and maybe he assumed a role that wasn’t fully suited to him? Right or wrong, I could see where that would lead to problems, especially with some of the new people coming in.

 

Perhaps it was just a lack of media presence, or a lack of my paying attention, but it sure seemed like Dozier played the role of a front-and-center leader the prior three years more so than he did this year.

[KirbyDome89]

Not sure I understand the criticism of Dozer here. 

 

There's nothing to suggest he was a malcontent or anything along those lines. If the report is true, and that's a big "if," can we blame him for wanting out? From his perspective he's watched this FO sell on two teams, one competing and the other expected to compete, and based on the Twins action/inaction and Dozier's comments there wasn't much interest, if any, in bringing him back. We can argue that some of those FO decisions were good baseball decisions, and I'd be inclined to agree to a point, but IMO Dozier handled all of it professionally. I have 0 issues with him wanting to spend the last few months of his contract on a contender

[KirbyDome89]

 

Maybe... depends on how talented those players might be... 

Any light you can shine on who those talented players might be?

[Squirrel]

Perhaps it was just a lack of media presence, or a lack of my paying attention, but it sure seemed like Dozier played the role of a front-and-center leader the prior three years more so than he did this year.

Right. And I’m wondering if he was getting push back from some of the players leading to conflict. Again, not saying it’s Dozier’s fault by any means. Most of you know how much I liked him. But, I wonder if it was a role not fully suited to him? Torii would have put people in their places, whether not that was a good way, but there was no questioning his ... ‘authority’ ... for lack of a bette way to put it. Dozier was just a good guy and you liked him because he was a good, amiable guy who worked really hard. And people gravitated toward that, making him the de facto leader, but I wonder if he really had the right quality to lead some of the personalities in that club house. Again, not pointing at Dozier here as the one at fault, but I could see that as causing problems.

[yarnivek1972]

From my college baseball days. I can tell you when your team has high expectations and the guys playing are sucking the guys not playing start getting pissed they aren't getting a chance.

So maybe that has something to do with this years chemistry. For example I am guessing quite a few are friends with Vargas and they see Morrison being terrible and they are thinking Kennys could be doing that for way less money? IDK

Then maybe Kennys should have been doing better in AAA. Then maybe he would have gotten a chance.

[Vanimal46]

Right. And I’m wondering if he was getting push back from some of the players leading to conflict. Again, not saying it’s Dozier’s fault by any means. Most of you know how much I liked him. But, I wonder if it was a role not fully suited to him? Torii would have put people in their places, whether not that was a good way, but there was no questioning his ... ‘authority’ ... for lack of a bette way to put it. Dozier was just a good guy and you liked him because he was a good, amiable guy who worked really hard. And people gravitated toward that, making him the de facto leader, but I wonder if he really had the right quality to lead some of the personalities in that club house. Again, not pointing at Dozier here as the one at fault, but I could see that as causing problems.

Things were certainly different this year, but I'm not sure why that would be the case with Dozier and his leadership. The core was essentially the same from last year. Supplemented by Duke, Rodney, Lynn, and Morrison.

 

The personalities changed more during the season when Sano/Buxton hit rock bottom, and Castro was lost for the season. The people that have filled in for them have been utterly forgettable.

 

So while I agree things are different, I'm not sure why it's different. And don't think we'll know until the season is over why it changed.

[NDTimIrish]

Team chemistry does NOT win games. It's that simple.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Then maybe Kennys should have been doing better in AAA. Then maybe he would have gotten a chance.

 

Both can be true.....a guys' friends can want more for him, and that he can not have earned it. 

 

While I've poo pooed the narrative, since we get these kinds of stories all the time when things don't turn out as expected.....it can be true that it is post hoc analysis .....and that the chemistry is bad (though I'd argue it's the talent/luck/injuries that put them in this spot, not chemistry).

 

I am pretty convinced Dozier was traded for clubhouse reasons, with NO DATA to back that up, other than two things:

 

No one wanted him all that badly last year, despite being awesome at his job

No one offered much of value for him this year (and he's a better DH than most AL clubs have, who can also play 2B or maybe 1B, where he's better than some).

[Major League Ready]

 

Things were certainly different this year, but I'm not sure why that would be the case with Dozier and his leadership. The core was essentially the same from last year. Supplemented by Duke, Rodney, Lynn, and Morrison.

The personalities changed more during the season when Sano/Buxton hit rock bottom, and Castro was lost for the season. The people that have filled in for them have been utterly forgettable.

So while I agree things are different, I'm not sure why it's different. And don't think we'll know until the season is over why it changed.

 

I am not sure I go along with the utterly forgettable part. Escobar player a .lot a 3B and Cave has been pretty darn good. Granted Kepler got quite a few starts in CF but Cave has been the guy of late.

[mickeymental]

winners tell jokes. losers say "deal the cards."