Team Chemistry issues?

[gman]

Guys on 1 year contracts. Guys on last year contracts. Both groups should be playing their butts off for a new contract. The rest are young guys looking for better arbitration or looking to build for that first arbitration season. Again should be playing their butts off. Their were and are no long termers sitting fat and lazy. 

 

I don't know about bad chemistry but their is alot of bad math as in bad overall numbers.

[Vanimal46]

And Duke had this to say about the clubhouse on the MLB website:

 

"The Mariners will be Duke's 10th team in 14 years in the Majors.

"I had a very positive experience here," Duke told reporters in Minneapolis. "I enjoyed the area, the city, the fans. The teammates were all great. It's a very good vibe in this clubhouse, regardless of what the record says. The guys have such a great attitude every day. They get along so well. I will miss that. But from what I've been told, it's a similar atmosphere there in Seattle. So hopefully I can step in and not mess that up."

 

So which is it? someone with an axe to grind or someone with a "Pollyanna" story? Choose carefully.

That's called not burning bridges. You learn that when you're on 10 teams in 14 years.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Huh. Funny none of this comes out until AFTER the team trades away a popular player and is under some heat from the fan base. Weird ...

You should have brought it up sooner

[Dman]

 

That article left off the last part of Duke's quote:

928407.jpg

 

 Like I said his statements do seem a bit over the top and what is he going to say?  I hate this place and am happy to get out of here? 

 

I guess I do give his version some credence as he could have just skipped talking about the team.  Why mention those things if they aren't true?  Why not just talk about how happy you are to be wanted by Seattle etc. and skip the clubhouse kum by ya?

[Mike Sixel]

I don't like the changes in the game, either on the field or in the contractual machinations. The players make too much money, and I don't care what you say, when you make that kind of money, a good piece of it guaranteed, you're going to look at things differently. In too many cases, you're looking to pad your stats or at best to protect your ass.

The average MLB salary in 2018 is $4.52 million. The top salaried players average around $25 million per year.

Would you put out for that kind of money, or would you drag yer ass?

Lazy people don't become professional athletes, they work their tails off. Despite what people say, this isn't a game, it is a profession, that requires serious work and dedication.

 

And, it's not like the owners will lower ticket prices.....so, I guess you want the owners to get more money, or what?

[Otto von Ballpark]

Lazy people don't become professional athletes,

They become fans!

[jimmer]

 

They become fans!

At least some.  Some of us can't really become lazy.  It's detrimental to our health.

[yarnivek1972]

That's called not burning bridges. You learn that when you're on 10 teams in 14 years.

Sounds like you are questioning his credibility. Care to offer evidence other than what an “unnamed source” allegedly told a radio personality?

 

If there were clubhouse issues, you don’t think some of the local columnists would have stirred that pot weeks ago?

[sftwinsfan]

I'm sure there were some issues with the team, you expect to compete for the post-season and lay an egg. You've probably got some vets not enjoying themselves having bad years coming up on free agency.  Mix that with young guys that aren't playing well, some guys are going to take issue with things others are doing or take things the wrong way.  Everytime something went well, something else went wrong.  

 

Also, they want to keep Rodney?  Has anybody blown more saves this year than him?

[Thrylos]

 

I'd say Buxton and Sano being bad, and other things were the issue......

 

Buxton and Sano were not in the clubhouse.  The "veterans" are to be blamed here...

 

[Thrylos]

 

 

 

 

 

Glad that he got what he wanted.  The Twins kept him too long for "a part-time" guy.  Hope the door did not hit him too hard.

 

He was mopping since the beginning of Spring Training for not getting an extension.  That's got to rub on some people and rub others the wrong way.

[Riverbrian]

I have no idea what is happening in the clubhouse and I'm not going to trust any reporter who may have talked to one guy (Maybe it was Brandon Kintzler).

 

It doesn't matter the industry.

 

If you don't hit your goals. Good chemistry is going to become bad chemistry.

 

People start pointing fingers and it happens consistently. 

 

[TheLeviathan]

This sounds like sour grapes. And I don't think it reflects well on Dozier.

[OldTimeTwinkie]

There was one other player that wanted out of the Twins clubhouse, remember, Cuduyer.

[mikelink45]

Does anyone remember the A's when they dominated the game?  Rudi, Henderson, Bando, Catfish Hunter, Rollie Fingers, Gene Tenace, Bert Campaneris, Blue Moon Odom, Vida Blue, Dick Williams and Charlie Finley?  They hated each other and especially their owner. 

 

"The stories have the feel of something ripped off from a Hollywood script.

All the conflict, humor and triumph of the early 1970’s Oakland A’s did, in fact, hit the big screen Thursday night. The best thing is that all the anecdotes are true.

 

The MLB Network held an advance screening of its newest documentary, “The Swingin’ A’s,” which chronicles the roller coaster ride of the 1972-74 A’s, winners of three consecutive World Series.

The film, which debuts Tuesday at 6 p.m. on the MLB Network, features revealing interviews with lots of key players from that era —Vida Blue, Rollie Fingers, Reggie Jackson, Gene Tenace, Sal Bando, Ray Fosse and Joe Rudi among them. Blue attended the premiere and took part in an audience Q&A hosted by the MLB Network’s Matt Vasgersian (an East Bay native and self-described A’s diehard).

“The Swingin’ A’s” is not so much a nostalgic recap of those seasons, but an honest and entertaining account of just how dysfunctional the environment was with this bunch, even as the A’s were building one of baseball’s top dynasties.

 

A small group of media attended Thursday’s premiere at the New Parkway Theatre in Oakland, but most of the seats in the small venue were filled by fans who cheered often throughout the one-hour documentary.

 

Not surprisingly, the film centers around the friction between A’s players and then-team owner Charlie Finley, the eccentric outside-the-box thinker whose penny-pinching ownership style quickly wore thin with players.

 

One of the more entertaining moments revolves around Jackson showing up to spring training in 1972 with a beard, a no-no under Finley. The owner offered $300 to any of the other players who grew a mustache, thinking that if facial hair became so commonplace it would persuade Jackson to eventually shave.

 

Instead, the idea caught fire throughout the clubhouse, and the heavy facial hair came to symbolize the free-spirit mentality of those A’s teams that ran so counter to other major league clubs. Fingers’ handlebar mustache, of course, became iconic.

 

“The only reason I grew this thing was to get $300 out of Charlie,” Fingers shares.

Also included is the entertaining story of young Stanley Burrell, who became an A’s batboy, eventually was granted a “vice president” title by Finley and acted as the owner’s eyes and ears in the clubhouse. Burrell, as is well-documented, went on to gain world fame as rapper MC Hammer. The Oakland native narrates the documentary.

 

The A’s fought with each other in the clubhouse, but above all else, they were a tight-knit bunch that formed a united front in opposition to their owner, who didn’t stand for having his authority challenged. But the film also takes care to mention the good that Finley did, such as the time he helped pay for medical expenses for a player’s wife. And, as A’s players acknowledge, Finley deserves credit for putting together this championship roster in the first place."   https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/athletics/swingin-highlights-dynasty-all-its-glorious-dysfunction 

 

I know this is Minnesota Nice and we are all supposed to be great buddies, but lots of teams have made their way to a championship without being pen pals.  We have had a lot of very close knit losers.

 

"According to CSN Bay Area’s Joe Stiglich, who also attended the advance screening.

“‘The Swingin’ A’s’ is not so much a nostalgic recap of those seasons, but an honest and entertaining account of just how dysfunctional the environment was with this bunch, even as the A’s were building one of baseball’s top dynasties,” https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/06/documentary-about-as-world-series-teams-premiering-tuesday/

 

The conflicts with the Owner lead to a strike - http://research.sabr.org/journals/owner-player-conflict

 

Conflicts are something that must be dealt with, but they are also part of team chemistry.  A passive loser is not something I want to see.  That is one of the big complaints about Mauer - Mr MN Nice - does not stir the pot in any direction.  When Torii Hunter clobbered Morneau it was a shock, but was it terrible?

 

Don't give me a bunch of guys who can pat each other on the back or the butt, give me players who want to win.

[ewen21]

 

Buxton and Sano were not in the clubhouse.  The "veterans" are to be blamed here...

Whenever leadership or chemistry issues come up it is an indictment of the veterans on the team.

I think there is a big accountability issue with this club.

[Thrylos]

 

Whenever leadership or chemistry issues come up it is an indictment of the veterans on the team.

I think there is a big accountability issue with this club.

 

And the manager, too, who tolerated it.  Bottom line is that it is his clubhouse.

[Dman]

 

Does anyone remember the A's when they dominated the game?  Rudi, Henderson, Bando, Catfish Hunter, Rollie Fingers, Gene Tenace, Bert Campaneris, Blue Moon Odom, Vida Blue, Dick Williams and Charlie Finley?  They hated each other and especially their owner. 

 

"The stories have the feel of something ripped off from a Hollywood script.

All the conflict, humor and triumph of the early 1970’s Oakland A’s did, in fact, hit the big screen Thursday night. The best thing is that all the anecdotes are true.

 

The MLB Network held an advance screening of its newest documentary, “The Swingin’ A’s,” which chronicles the roller coaster ride of the 1972-74 A’s, winners of three consecutive World Series.

The film, which debuts Tuesday at 6 p.m. on the MLB Network, features revealing interviews with lots of key players from that era —Vida Blue, Rollie Fingers, Reggie Jackson, Gene Tenace, Sal Bando, Ray Fosse and Joe Rudi among them. Blue attended the premiere and took part in an audience Q&A hosted by the MLB Network’s Matt Vasgersian (an East Bay native and self-described A’s diehard).

“The Swingin’ A’s” is not so much a nostalgic recap of those seasons, but an honest and entertaining account of just how dysfunctional the environment was with this bunch, even as the A’s were building one of baseball’s top dynasties.

 

A small group of media attended Thursday’s premiere at the New Parkway Theatre in Oakland, but most of the seats in the small venue were filled by fans who cheered often throughout the one-hour documentary.

 

Not surprisingly, the film centers around the friction between A’s players and then-team owner Charlie Finley, the eccentric outside-the-box thinker whose penny-pinching ownership style quickly wore thin with players.

 

One of the more entertaining moments revolves around Jackson showing up to spring training in 1972 with a beard, a no-no under Finley. The owner offered $300 to any of the other players who grew a mustache, thinking that if facial hair became so commonplace it would persuade Jackson to eventually shave.

 

Instead, the idea caught fire throughout the clubhouse, and the heavy facial hair came to symbolize the free-spirit mentality of those A’s teams that ran so counter to other major league clubs. Fingers’ handlebar mustache, of course, became iconic.

 

“The only reason I grew this thing was to get $300 out of Charlie,” Fingers shares.

Also included is the entertaining story of young Stanley Burrell, who became an A’s batboy, eventually was granted a “vice president” title by Finley and acted as the owner’s eyes and ears in the clubhouse. Burrell, as is well-documented, went on to gain world fame as rapper MC Hammer. The Oakland native narrates the documentary.

 

The A’s fought with each other in the clubhouse, but above all else, they were a tight-knit bunch that formed a united front in opposition to their owner, who didn’t stand for having his authority challenged. But the film also takes care to mention the good that Finley did, such as the time he helped pay for medical expenses for a player’s wife. And, as A’s players acknowledge, Finley deserves credit for putting together this championship roster in the first place."   https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/athletics/swingin-highlights-dynasty-all-its-glorious-dysfunction 

 

I know this is Minnesota Nice and we are all supposed to be great buddies, but lots of teams have made their way to a championship without being pen pals.  We have had a lot of very close knit losers.

 

"According to CSN Bay Area’s Joe Stiglich, who also attended the advance screening.

“‘The Swingin’ A’s’ is not so much a nostalgic recap of those seasons, but an honest and entertaining account of just how dysfunctional the environment was with this bunch, even as the A’s were building one of baseball’s top dynasties,” https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/06/documentary-about-as-world-series-teams-premiering-tuesday/

 

The conflicts with the Owner lead to a strike - http://research.sabr.org/journals/owner-player-conflict

 

Conflicts are something that must be dealt with, but they are also part of team chemistry.  A passive loser is not something I want to see.  That is one of the big complaints about Mauer - Mr MN Nice - does not stir the pot in any direction.  When Torii Hunter clobbered Morneau it was a shock, but was it terrible?

 

Don't give me a bunch of guys who can pat each other on the back or the butt, give me players who want to win.

 

I agree.  You have 25 guys all with different backgrounds and personalities, not everyone is going to get along perfectly on any team.  But when it is time to play the game they all rally around each other and have each others back so I feel like those differences get put aside when they play.  

 

I don't know how things would have gotten so bad so fast.  Just a couple of years ago they were having dance parties and having fun.  Now they are at each others throats?  I guess I don't buy it.  Conflict sure.  Detrimental conflict I highly doubt it.

[Mike Sixel]

Buxton and Sano were not in the clubhouse. The "veterans" are to be blamed here...

You completely missed the point... The point being they lost because those two were not good, not because of chemistry issues.

[Danchat]

I can't say for sure whether these claims are true, but I can say this - the moment Escobar was traded, Dozier wanted out of here. Maybe he's been feeling the itch to leave for a few weeks now, and it's possible this started when the FO didn't try to give him an extension. But yeah, probably all the losing and incompetence since late April has simply soured the team. 

[Thrylos]

 

You completely missed the point... The point being they lost because those two were not good, not because of chemistry issues.

 

Methinks that you missed the point of this post     It is not about why the Twins are losing, it is about chemistry.

[USAFChief]

This sounds like sour grapes. And I don't think it reflects well on Dozier.

I think it probably reflects more on Darren Wolfson.

[D. Hocking]

Yes - I think it is more when you are winning you enjoy coming to work more, you are in a good mood and everyone simply gets a long better and is having fun.  Losing -- you are in a bad mood and people get on your nerves easier.

 

Last year Mauer said it was one of the most fun teams he had played for.  While there are some new players this year, it had a lot of the same core.  I don't think the locker room became less enjoyable because of the mix of players not having the right chemistry, but as has been said throughout the thread, losing makes one less fun to be around and less tolerant of things that irritate them.  Those players spend a lot of time together, so when things don't go well, I am guessing certain things grate on you more.

 

Things seemed so promising when they were cheerfully getting on the plane to go to PR all dressed up festively.

[Vanimal46]

Sounds like you are questioning his credibility. Care to offer evidence other than what an “unnamed source” allegedly told a radio personality?

 

If there were clubhouse issues, you don’t think some of the local columnists would have stirred that pot weeks ago?

I'm not questioning his credibility one bit. It's a professional answer from someone who's been around the block. There's probably a reason he's fit in on 10 teams in 14 years, and baseball is a small world. You won't hear a player quoted saying that clubhouse is toxic.

 

Also, hilarious to think local columnists stirring up the pot at One Twins Way.

[jkcarew]

I’m shocked. Absolutely shocked that stories alleging chemistry issues would come out in a year where a bunch of guys...including veterans/leader...where operating on one-year, or the last year, of their contracts..underperforming (in almost all cases), while the team was failing. This never happens anywhere else. Doogie’s broken a big one here.

[Seth Stohs]

 

Billy Beane says winning causes good team chemistry. He may be correct, although others disagree and have tried to measure "team chemistry" in sports. There was a fascinating article in The Atlantic magazine within the last month or two about attempts to define and measure team chemistry. I meant to send this article to TD, but time got in my way. I'll see if I can find it.

 

i think winning covers up a lot of things... Losing can bring it out. I definitely do not think that it was anyone's lack of effort or passion, as I've seen up above. I'm reading a lot of assumptions in many of these things. 

 

When they brought in Matt Belisle, it was clearly a leadership and clubhouse thing. At that time, I was told that the clubhouse was a mess. There were some obvious players mentioned. I don't think the manager is an issue,  and someone up above wondered if Molitor was leading some of this clubhouse stuff... Why would he want a disgruntled clubhouse? They all want to be happy and comfortable at work and be in a positive and encouraging clubhouse. They're all competitive. When things are going bad, things happen and get said in large part because it is a room with so many very competitive guys who hate losing.  

[Han Joelo]

Chemistry threads are tough due to the subjective definitions we all bring to the word.  For some, it is a synonym for liking each other, kind of like in romantic relationships that work well.  I take the view that good chemistry can result in a chocolate souffle, and it can also result in TNT; but bad chemistry just leads to a pile of sludge in a laboratory beaker.

 

Which I would say is what happened to this team.  The chemists threw some stuff together, a lot of it because they thought they were getting a good deal--value--while at the same time holding onto some old stuff that was past its expiration date and some other stuff that was unripe and potentially spoiled.

 

To us working stiffs buying the $12 beers, it seems like a no-brainer that a guy on the verge of free agency would simply be better than he's ever been, in order to be able to cash in.  Trevor Bauer, at least, seems to feel that way.  But most of these guys have cashed in, relative to anything we'll ever see.  Instead, in an ego driven sport, they've basically been told they aren't really wanted, and their wives should be checking out school in various cities around the country.  Furthermore, this FO (and many others, granted, even the previous regime here) have made it clear that at the first, or at least third sign of failure, they will pull the plug--and here, on the cusp of being at least able to choose where you go next, they uproot your family mid-season, mid-game even, and ship you across country.

 

I no, cry me a river.  They're getting paid millions to play a game.  But maybe that is just it--the money doesn't matter that much, at least not as much as feeling like you are a valued member of the company, an indelible part of something bigger than yourself.  But then again, even this feeling, given the right ingredients, heat, pressure, and whatnot, could result in something good--like maybe how the aforementioned A's of the 70's were.

 

In this case, it just fizzled.

 

 

[Dman]

 

i think winning covers up a lot of things... Losing can bring it out. I definitely do not think that it was anyone's lack of effort or passion, as I've seen up above. I'm reading a lot of assumptions in many of these things. 

 

When they brought in Matt Belisle, it was clearly a leadership and clubhouse thing. At that time, I was told that the clubhouse was a mess. There were some obvious players mentioned. I don't think the manager is an issue,  and someone up above wondered if Molitor was leading some of this clubhouse stuff... Why would he want a disgruntled clubhouse? They all want to be happy and comfortable at work and be in a positive and encouraging clubhouse. They're all competitive. When things are going bad, things happen and get said in large part because it is a room with so many very competitive guys who hate losing.  

 

I guess I don't understand what clubhouse mess is?  So there are players that like conflict and go about creating it?  The players don't care?  What constitutes a clubhouse mess?

[D. Hocking]

 

I’m shocked. Absolutely shocked that stories alleging chemistry issues would come out in a year where a bunch of guys...including veterans/leader...where operating on one-year, or the last year, of their contracts..underperforming (in almost all cases), while the team was failing. This never happens anywhere else. Doogie’s broken a big one here.

 

Yes - look at 2007.  It should have been a year building on the big 2006 run.  When the season ended up being a disappointment, Santana and Torii being lame duck players was dominating story and in every city they visited Torii would give an interview of how he would love to play there.  I like Torii, but I was ready for him to shut up by the end of the season.

[Squirrel]

I have more questions than answers reading all this. But these are answers that are likely not going to be made public.