Twins Option Berrios, Recall Taylor Rogers

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Or maybe totally not.  The fear of demotion is real; it's not artificially imposed by the club.  The Twins aren't rooting against Berrios (which is the implication of your post), and given his early call-up, they obviously believe in him, and wanted him to succeed.    

We've been down this discussion path before.  Obviously the Twins want their players to succeed.  But that doesn't mean much if they don't demonstrate trust that they can succeed.  The Twins would have loved nothing more than Alex Meyer to throw a complete game shutout, but calling up Meyer to sit on the bench, yanking him in the third inning of his first start, and demoting him immediately after the game for JR Graham who was DFA'd a day later, was a textbook example of not showing trust.

 

Berrios is a bit different, he did get four starts, and they didn't have much choice but to remove him from the game yesterday, but I think optioning him now for Dean/Rogers, with at least 3 more rotation turns before Gibson returns, strikes me as showing a lack of trust too.  Polanco rarely starting two consecutive games is another example.

 

Add in rostering Buxton before he looked ready, and Kepler before they were ready to play him, strikes me as a team that is desperately hoping to hit a home run with one of these promotions but not terribly willing to trust the development process.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I addressed this in my post (the parts that you cropped out). So you think just throwing him out there over and over is the way to do it? The problem wasn't the lack of realistic expectations, the problem is that Berrios pitched horribly.  Well below replacement level or what ever reasonable expectation one could have.  

 

It's not that Berrios if failing to show poise or to finish people off -- given his total lack of control -- there's probably a mechanical issue.  If all Berrios needed to succeed was to calm down, I might agree with you, but I don't think that's all he needs.  He needs to work on his mechanics without regard to his own or the team's success or failure, that task is much easier to accomplish in AAA for the countless reasons people have listed above. 

Why call him up to MLB then, when they did?

 

See my post above -- desperately hoping for a home run, but not willing to trust the developmental process.

[PseudoSABR]

 

We've been down this discussion path before.  Obviously the Twins want their players to succeed.  But that doesn't mean much if they don't demonstrate trust that they can succeed.  The Twins would have loved nothing more than Alex Meyer to throw a complete game shutout, but calling up Meyer to sit on the bench, yanking him in the third inning of his first start, and demoting him immediately after the game for JR Graham who was DFA'd a day later, was a textbook example of not showing trust.

 

Berrios is a bit different, he did get four starts, and they didn't have much choice but to remove him from the game yesterday, but I think optioning him now for Dean/Rogers, with at least 3 more rotation turns before Gibson returns, strikes me as showing a lack of trust too.  Polanco rarely starting two consecutive games is another example.

 

Add in rostering Buxton before he looked ready, and Kepler before they were ready to play him, strikes me as a team that is desperately hoping to hit a home run with one of these promotions but not terribly willing to trust the development process.

The situation with Meyer, Polanco, and Kepler aren't comparable, as Berrios was actually given a chance.  (I wasn't happy about the lack of playing time for any of those guys. That is not the situation here).

 

This is yet another transaction that illustrates confirmation bias.  "The Twins are incompetent therefore this move was incompetent."  I think painting with so broad a brush leads to poor analysis and obscures what exactly is going on with Berrios.

 

Are there any circumstances where you'd believe sending down Berrios was the right move? If you can't imagine such circumstances, there's no point in having discussion.

[savvyspy]

Replaced by Pat Dean? What has Pat Dean done to deserve a spot in the rotation other than almost set a record for hits given up in relief??

 

Twins again with no plan.

 

This could be rock bottom. This move doesn't help the team at all and again jerks around a top prospect for nothing more than the ability of the dinosaurs in the front office to teach a rookie a lesson about the Twins Way. 

 

Its an embarrassment and everyone who is drawing a paycheck in that front office and scouting department should be let go today and replaced by orange traffic cones the rest of the season until they can get an entirely new FO in October. There should be a way for them to autodraft this year's amateur draft. The results aren't likely to be much different. 

[Loosey]

 

Ah yes Berrios the guy with the scholarship!  He can stink-it-up and get a free pass! 

This isn't little league.  Some players are more important than others.  Berrios is one that should be handled differently than other young pitchers. Berrios a big part of the long-term plan and success of the Twins future.  So, yes I would give him more "free passes" than others. 

[Loosey]

 

 

This could be rock bottom.

 

Man, this bottom must be deep.  I think we say this on an every other day basis.  We keep digging and keep finding rock unfortunately.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Why call him up to MLB then, when they did?

 

See my post above -- desperately hoping for a home run, but not willing to trust the developmental process.

This is the developmental process. The notion that development happens in straight line with a constant slope isn't born out in reality. 

 

It's possible that Berrios mechanics went to crap; that the Twins were wrong in his readiness; that he lost the feel for one of his pitches; that he couldn't take what he was doing in the bullpen sessions to the mound; etc. etc.   There exists plenty of reasonable (and likely) explanations for why the Twins promoted Berrios then and demoted him now, mostly having to do with Berrios own performance.   

 

(It's the classic pitching prospect paradox: 1) The Twins were wrong to keep Berrios down so long. 2) The Twins were wrong to promote Berrios too soon.)

 

Sometimes prospects get rushed a bit, and the only way to know that often is with the results on the field.  As is the case here.   

[Mike Sixel]

 

This is the developmental process. The notion that development happens in straight line with a constant slope isn't born out in reality. 

 

It's possible that Berrios mechanics went to crap; that the Twins were wrong in his readiness; that he lost the feel for one of his pitches; that he couldn't take what he was doing in the bullpen sessions to the mound; etc. etc.   There exists plenty of reasonable (and likely) explanations for why the Twins promoted Berrios then and demoted him now, mostly having to do with Berrios own performance.   

 

(It's the classic pitching prospect paradox: 1) The Twins were wrong to keep Berrios down so long. 2) The Twins were wrong to promote Berrios too soon.)

 

Sometimes prospects get rushed a bit, and the only way to know that often is with the results on the field.  As is the case here.   

 

Which is why I personally want them up for several games (pitchers) or weeks (hitters) and playing.....to gather data. Based on all the data, Berrios was ready. Now everyone can see he wasn't ready (not sure that means demote him or not.....), but at least now we all have more data.

 

We don't have much on Polanco or Kepler, because they sat around.....same with Meyer, imo. Berrios? We now have data on him.

[curt1965]

Seems like a terrible reason to send down Berrios. If they were that concerned they could just send someone else down.

Tongue was firmly in planted in cheek, Dave!

[Lonestar]

 

Berrios did have 12 starts in AAA last year.

 

And if 3 starts this year, 1 with control, weren't good enough -- why did we call Berrios up to MLB when we did?

 

Why call up Meyer after 3 games in AAA too, only to demote him immediately after one MLB start (in a week and a half on the roster)?

 

Why call up Kepler after 2 games in AAA, only to demote him after 2 starts (in two weeks on the roster)?

 

Why roster Buxton after only 13 games in AAA and a poor spring training (34% K rate)?

 

Why call up Polanco after 32 career games in AAA, to only start him 4 times in 3 weeks?

 

Looks to me like a pattern of desperation and hope, but no trust or plan to develop.

I was merely justifying demoting/optioning Berrios.  In hindsight it's easy for some of us to say he was not ready and/or he was not ready to cope with this much failure. Ryan saw him pitch his good game for Rochester.  And the Twins needed a starter. Other than that we don't know the thought process.

 

I thought this thread was about demoting Berrios. But I agree the Twins have no plan and I have never been a Twins apologist.

 

Without knowing the backstory, Meyer was mishandled.  I hope he's ready to come back soon.

 

The Twins needed a 4th OF.  They called up Kepler and sat him which is what 4th OF's do. Were you going to start him instead of Sano or Buxton or Rosario.  The bad thing is that Kepler missed the reps needed to be ready to replace Rosario.  But then again Arcia may have replaced Rosario.

 

A lot of people on this board thought Buxton should play everyday in MLB because of his .500 BABIP in AAA last year or because he needed trial by fire.  I thought he should start in AAA.

 

They called up Polanco because they needed a bench MIF.  Who was he going to start in front of? Dozier? Escobar? Plouffe? Nunez while he is hot?  When three of those guys are good to go, it makes sense that Polanco sits.

 

The Twins got lucky with Santana in 2014 and look what happened.

They got lucky with Rosario in 2015 and look what's happening.

Berrios is a different order of prospect and they hoped he would click. Maybe just as desperate but more basis for hope.  He'll be back. And it won't be luck.

[Halsey Hall]

 

Yup, it's pretty clear that Ryan just really doesn't give a damn anymore and is just coasting towards his eventual retirement (whenever he decides on a whim to hang it up again with little to no notice) There really is no other explanation.

Ryan didn't send him down. He didn't even see the game, someone else made the call and likely Mollie, per Ruesse.

[Twinsbar107]

 

I was merely justifying demoting/optioning Berrios.  In hindsight it's easy for some of us to say he was not ready and/or he was not ready to cope with this much failure. Ryan saw him pitch his good game for Rochester.  And the Twins needed a starter. Other than that we don't know the thought process.

 

I thought this thread was about demoting Berrios. But I agree the Twins have no plan and I have never been a Twins apologist.

 

Without knowing the backstory, Meyer was mishandled.  I hope he's ready to come back soon.

 

The Twins needed a 4th OF.  They called up Kepler and sat him which is what 4th OF's do. Were you going to start him instead of Sano or Buxton or Rosario.  The bad thing is that Kepler missed the reps needed to be ready to replace Rosario.  But then again Arcia may have replaced Rosario.

 

A lot of people on this board thought Buxton should play everyday in MLB because of his .500 BABIP in AAA last year or because he needed trial by fire.  I thought he should start in AAA.

 

They called up Polanco because they needed a bench MIF.  Who was he going to start in front of? Dozier? Escobar? Plouffe? Nunez while he is hot?  When three of those guys are good to go, it makes sense that Polanco sits.

 

The Twins got lucky with Santana in 2014 and look what happened.

They got lucky with Rosario in 2015 and look what's happening.

Berrios is a different order of prospect and they hoped he would click. Maybe just as desperate but more basis for hope.  He'll be back. And it won't be luck.

why not just call up mastrianni then? 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Ugh... I don't know how this inspires confidence in any of the young players if they are immediately shipped back to AAA after a rough game. 

 

This kind of cuts both ways, as I don't believe anyone is a fan of scholarships.  I don't have a problem with him earning it, though I do get real annoyed when they add a kid to the 40 early and then 4 starts later option him.  That's horrible options management.  With Berrios being in AAA, it probably won't matter, but then again we said the same thing about Arcia when it happened to him.

 

That said, I just hope these Rochester trips come with a list of things to work on.  That to me is the biggest thing, and sometimes these prospects never really work on those items b/c they can get through AAA based on talent alone and never hone certain parts of their game b/c they never needed to.  The humiliation can be a motivating factor.  It's not all lost.  Not exactly happy here, but this can be just as much of a good thing as a bad one.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

why not just call up mastrianni then? 

 

At the time I don't believe he was on the 40 man.  I don't mind bringing up a prospect and letting him sit for a couple days if you're in a situation where a guy will be out for a week and you just need a warm body.  It certainly acclimates them to ML life, and I'm guessing they kind of like the pay check too.  But yeah, for a longer term issue, you want the kid playing, or it really does cause a problem long term.

[Vanimal46]

 

This kind of cuts both ways, as I don't believe anyone is a fan of scholarships.  I don't have a problem with him earning it, though I do get real annoyed when they add a kid to the 40 early and then 4 starts later option him.  That's horrible options management.  With Berrios being in AAA, it probably won't matter, but then again we said the same thing about Arcia when it happened to him.

 

That said, I just hope these Rochester trips come with a list of things to work on.  That to me is the biggest thing, and sometimes these prospects never really work on those items b/c they can get through AAA based on talent alone and never hone certain parts of their game b/c they never needed to.  The humiliation can be a motivating factor.  It's not all lost.  Not exactly happy here, but this can be just as much of a good thing as a bad one.

Well said. I'm right there with you on the things you're annoyed about. The frustrations are really starting to come out now that this is the 3rd pitcher they've done this to in less than 60 days. IMO it's not a healthy culture/environment to put high expectations on rookies, and the moment they start to struggle, they're on a plane back to Rochester.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

This is the developmental process. The notion that development happens in straight line with a constant slope isn't born out in reality.

 

It's possible that Berrios mechanics went to crap; that the Twins were wrong in his readiness; that he lost the feel for one of his pitches; that he couldn't take what he was doing in the bullpen sessions to the mound; etc. etc. There exists plenty of reasonable (and likely) explanations for why the Twins promoted Berrios then and demoted him now, mostly having to do with Berrios own performance.

 

(It's the classic pitching prospect paradox: 1) The Twins were wrong to keep Berrios down so long. 2) The Twins were wrong to promote Berrios too soon.)

 

Sometimes prospects get rushed a bit, and the only way to know that often is with the results on the field. As is the case here.

Berrios showed the same issues with control and command this spring and in his first few AAA games this year.

 

When they called him up early despite that, I expected him to have a longer leash than one disaster start, assuming a rotation spot was readily available.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The situation with Meyer, Polanco, and Kepler aren't comparable, as Berrios was actually given a chance. (I wasn't happy about the lack of playing time for any of those guys. That is not the situation here).

 

This is yet another transaction that illustrates confirmation bias. "The Twins are incompetent therefore this move was incompetent." I think painting with so broad a brush leads to poor analysis and obscures what exactly is going on with Berrios.

 

Are there any circumstances where you'd believe sending down Berrios was the right move? If you can't imagine such circumstances, there's no point in having discussion.

Can you please spare us your theories about our posting motivations? That doesn't seem to be great for the discussion. Thanks in advance.

 

I think I answered your last question in my above post. Given his issues with command and control prior to his callup, I expected a longer leash than 1 disaster start, if the alternative was Pat Dean.

 

I also expected Meyer to have a longer leash than 1 start.

 

Polanco and Kepler are obviously different particulars, but I think the lack of planning and trust around their promotions are similar to Meyer and now Berrios.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Well said. I'm right there with you on the things you're annoyed about. The frustrations are really starting to come out now that this is the 3rd pitcher they've done this to in less than 60 days. IMO it's not a healthy culture/environment to put high expectations on rookies, and the moment they start to struggle, they're on a plane back to Rochester.  

 

Yeah, it's definitely not on the list of how I'd handle it.  That said, I'd definitely use the Rochester shuttle, but it may even be under the context of "you get X starts, then we call up player B no matter how well you're doing.  Go out there, relax, and do your thing."  Certainly takes the pressure off if they know they are going down no matter what I'd think... 

[TheLeviathan]

I understand the move, but boy it'd be nice to see them give the kid a little more leash.  I could understand it if it was Gibson returning or something, but Dean?

 

Ick, let the kid struggle and adjust a little bit.  I think a stop in AAA this year was inevitable, but this feels a bit too soon for me.

[Vanimal46]

 

Yeah, it's definitely not on the list of how I'd handle it.  That said, I'd definitely use the Rochester shuttle, but it may even be under the context of "you get X starts, then we call up player B no matter how well you're doing.  Go out there, relax, and do your thing."  Certainly takes the pressure off if they know they are going down no matter what I'd think... 

Sure. That actually has logic and a plan behind it. I'm all for experimenting and gathering info on who out of the 20 pitchers is close to making an impact, who needs to be let go, etc. The way they've handled Rogers, Meyer, and Berrios this year clearly isn't working. 

[Dantes929]

When Crain had trouble with control they sent him down, he worked on it and came back up and did great.    Same thing with Liriano.    I would have had no problem with one more start but definitely have no problem with sending him down.   He appears to have pretty good stuff but his command in ST was off and it sounded like he got by in the minors despite not being pin point accurate.   He was minor league pitcher of the year twice because of great control, not in spite of it.    2.4 BB/9 in 2014, 2.1 in 2015 and now 4.2 in the minors and 7.2 in the majors.      I am not arguing for the seasoning.    I am arguing for him to get his control back.     Get back to around 2.00 over a couple games and then bring him back.   Something is off compared to last year whether it is trying to strike everyone out or mechanics.     Duffey took one game for the nerves.   May had a whole September and then an off season.   Berrios needs to regroup and it will be easier for him without the pressure of the major leagues.      Its up to him.    This is short term if he goes down and figures it all out.     .    

[DocBauer]

I can't count how many likes I clicked in this thread, and on both sides of the arguement. There really are 2 completely different sides to Berrios and his going down at this time. And honestlu, each side has very valid points.

 

I'm, late to the party on this thread despite the day off.

 

I'm sick and tired of the way the youngsters have been jersey around and yo-yo'd this season, as well as how they've been handled when they have been up. I know that at the ML level you are attempting to win, but in a lost season, does a game or two really matter that much in future context of player development when a prospect is up? Couldn't Kepler, when he was up, Polanco up again, even if they don't perform overly well, take something back with them to AAA as a further learning experience when they come back again?

 

That being said, Berrios clearly has the talent to succeed. He made some nice pitches and he got something called a "strikeout" that I'm not overly familiar with. (I kid....I kid) But I do think he may be pressing. His control in ST was not good. His control in his milb starts wasn't all that great, not has it been all that great in his ML starts. I honestly do get sending him back down temporarily to get in a groove. But there are bound to be growing pains! I would have let him know that bad days happen, (they've happened a lot this season), and I would have given him another start, at least, possibly with an extra day, before I sent him down.

 

It's great that Dean, or Rogers gets a turn, but what does that ultimately do for the future of the franchise? Nothing. They would be much better served giving Berrios another start or two to see how he responded.

[Twodogs]

 

Dean?! Pat Freaking Dean?! He's a left handed Nick Blackburn. He throws softer than Milone. At least Milone has track record of being a major league pitcher. I seriously cannot believe Dean is still on the 40-man, let alone on the active roster AND starting. 

 

This is a total knee-jerk, reactionary move from a desperate front office. Why not stretch out May and put him in the rotation? 

Its true, id much rather have Milone pitching than Dean.  But nonetheless, I think Berrios had earned at least one more start with his track record over the last two seasons.  All in all it isn't bad that he is down, he is obviously in the Twins overall future plans and I'd bet that if he goes back down and lights them up in AAA that he will be back sometime mid summer.  Hopefully to stay.

[Taildragger8791]

Berrios has been a little off this entire season which probably led to the shorter leash on his call-up. He had a fantastic year last year, but this year he had issues throwing strikes in spring training and that carried over to the regular season as well. His first two minor league starts were 5 innings with 4 and 3 walks each, before he had one good start and got the call up. Then he walked 10 guys over 11 innings in 3 short starts in the majors which was putting a significant load on his teammates. I hoped he'd get a little more time but if they likely saw something in him that needs to get worked on, which I'm confident he will. He'll be back before long and be fine.

[beckmt]

Short starts have been killing the bullpen the last few weeks.  Twins just needed another body up here.  Happens all the time in the majors.  Berrios will be back,  season is already lost, calm down.

[Mr. Brooks]

Well, judging by Mollie's harsh comments, I don't think we'll be seeing Berrios back with the mlb club anytime soon, and will probably be getting the Meyer treatment from Molitor.

 

I don't understand why they would choose a manager with so little patience for young players, given where they were at when they hired him.

[Vanimal46]

 

Well, judging by Mollie's harsh comments, I don't think we'll be seeing Berrios back with the mlb club anytime soon, and will probably be getting the Meyer treatment from Molitor.

I don't understand why they would choose a manager with so little patience for young players, given where they were at when they hired him.

Could you share the comments? 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I understand the move, but boy it'd be nice to see them give the kid a little more leash.  I could understand it if it was Gibson returning or something, but Dean?

Pretty much my take.

 

1. Berrios should get more than four starts to prove himself.

 

2. Berrios wasn't terrible in two of his four starts.

 

3. Pat Dean.

 

Like you said, if Gibson was returning it's a "short straw" situation and Berrios is the odd man out. Maybe he gets demoted because there simply isn't room for the number of pitchers on the roster.

 

But Pat Dean? Nah, man. Not for Pat Dean.

[Mike Sixel]

Also, how is Pat Dean on the roster, but not Tommy Milone?

 

Also, congrats to Rogers. He should be a LOOGY, imo, but he'll get more than that chance for a few days probably.

[Vanimal46]

 

Also, how is Pat Dean on the roster, but not Tommy Milone?

 

Also, congrats to Rogers. He should be a LOOGY, imo, but he'll get more than that chance for a few days probably.

Tangent question about Tommy Milone... Now that he passed through waivers, let's say they call him up and want to send him back down to AAA. Does he have to go through waivers every time?