Will Fear of Past Ruin Future?

[GMinTraining]

Good Article linked below

 

In this linked article, David Ortiz talks about how the Twins treated him "Bad"  during his time in the system.  My questions are:

 

Does Terry Ryan have a fear of making the same mistake again?  

 

And if so, will this fear cause him to hold on to Vargas and Arcia longer than expected to ease those fears?

 

Will future hitters like Polanco, Kepler and Walker fall into those fearful decisions until they are considered old for prospects?

 

Does Ortiz value into production (20 HR & 75 RBI) have any relevance on what decisions should be made with players?

 

Why was Ortiz let go again (Lol)?

 

In the article - Ortiz also talks about a lack of communication from powers that be.  A reporter should ask prospects the simple question - What have the Twins told you about your future?  Lol

 

http://www.startribune.com/at-40-and-near-retirement-big-papi-ortiz-looks-back-on-career/372810781/

Article in MN Star Tribune

[DocBauer]

Bogus....IMHO

 

Ortiz is the "Ruth" of the Twins franchise if you want to play that game. But that game is tired and old. EVERY SINGLE SPORT and team have players that "got away" and had success somewhere else.

 

Ortiz was a solid player, with solid production, with no real defensive position, and some injury history, that the Twins decided not to gamble on. The Sox won. Good for them. But it's not like a gypsy sooth teller pulled up one day and spit out a Zoltan card that said this guy would be an all time great DH.

 

I am so tired of this arguement. Furthermore, in recent to semi-recent history, almost all of the "Twins screwed up" history of players would indicate that players the Twins lost or gave up on didn't exactly set the world on fire, or took a team or two or three to find their mediocre or decent status to be effective enough to be considered any kind of loss.

[ScrapTheNickname]

Yes,

 

Bogus....IMHO

Ortiz is the "Ruth" of the Twins franchise if you want to play that game. But that game is tired and old. EVERY SINGLE SPORT and team have players that "got away" and had success somewhere else.

Ortiz was a solid player, with solid production, with no real defensive position, and some injury history, that the Twins decided not to gamble on. The Sox won. Good for them. But it's not like a gypsy sooth teller pulled up one day and spit out a Zoltan card that said this guy would be an all time great DH.

I am so tired of this arguement. Furthermore, in recent to semi-recent history, almost all of the "Twins screwed up" history of players would indicate that players the Twins lost or gave up on didn't exactly set the world on fire, or took a team or two or three to find their mediocre or decent status to be effective enough to be considered any kind of loss.

A list of "players that got away" from each MLB team would make for a fascinating article. I agree that Ortiz is just one of many, but he was ours, therefore it is kind of understandable that some still have a hard time letting it go. I'm long done with it.

[jimbo92107]

There's one sure way to figure this out: Trade Kennys Vargas to Boston. If the Twins are doing the same thing to Vargas that they did to David Ortiz, then Boston could have their next Big Papi for practically nada. It's really kind of silly to keep Vargas around anyway, if they want him to be a line drive hitter. In Boston they'll tell him, "swing for the fences and have fun, big guy." Like they did for Ortiz. 

 

Some guys just aren't built for small ball. 

[old nurse]

Johan Santana. Win some, lose some.

[GMinTraining]

Do you think we are holding on to guys we could possibly trade earlier in their careers, because of that fear of losing someone special (ala Ortiz)?  We seem to stockpile and lose value on players, while never trading high and end up releasing them anyway at some point...........

[Platoon]

Some guys just aren't built for small ball. or it could be said, "small ball is not built for some guys"

[Boom Boom]

I can't speak for TR, but the sentiment has certainly been expressed by fans here. Especially in regards to Arcia. Can't let him go because he'll be a monster somewhere else.

[jorgenswest]

The use of the word fear makes it sound like the deciding to keep Arcia and Vargas will be a decision made out of weakness. The upside of every player is an important factor in any roster decision every spring. Vargas has an option left. He should be in AAA as depth. He can tear it up and force the Twins hand. Arcia represents their best 2016 upside for left handed power. He represents their best upside to step in for Park if he is not ready. That has to be considered while forming the roster. It doesn't need to be done out of fear.

[Linus]

I am tired of Big Papi. How can a guy who has had everything hold a grudge for so long? Plus he conveniently forgets that he sat unsigned for a month and when he signed with Boston it was for far less than he would have been due in arbitration. Plenty of teams agreed with the Twins assessment.

[HitInAPinch]

"Does Terry Ryan have a fear of making the same mistake again?"

 

From the article:  ""Anyone who says it was a financial decision is dead wrong," Ryan said. "It was a very bad baseball decision. We thought we had better options. We were wrong in a big way.

"It's on me, nobody else. I'm the general manager. We don't release big-league players without the general manager's approval.""

 

Fear?

[Han Joelo]

Doesn't it feel like there is more to this story?  Especially the way Reusse ends it, "I was a good kid…"  We'll probably never know, and maybe shouldn't, but maybe there was some incident, maybe some practical joke gone bad.  Maybe it was PED related.  I just can't fathom how Ortiz didn't have some kind of trade value, let alone pass through waivers.

[Jham]

Despite what Ortiz says and has said over the years, I'm not positive that the Twins way of teaching hitting didn't benefit his career.  Teaching players to be complete hitters can help lengthen careers, shorten slumps, and overall, stay on pitches even if you ultimately pull that pitch.  I'm not sure Ortiz still plays, wins batting titles, and goes oppo over the Monster for playoff grand slams if the Twins system doesn't teach him to stay on pitches and drive the ball opposite field.  The Twins allow pull hitting and power hitting.  Morneau, Dozier, signed Thome, Willingham, etc.  I've never been critical of the Twins insistence that young players learn to go the other way so that their 15 minutes in the league don't end up like McCarty, Valencia, Arcia or Vargas.  Maybe they'll go somewhere and hit a ton, but guys like Ortiz are rare.

[nicksaviking]

Isn't another way of saying the Twins have a fear of losing another Ortiz basically saying they are trying to learn from their past mistakes?

[USAFChief]

Doesn't it feel like there is more to this story?  Especially the way Reusse ends it, "I was a good kid…"  We'll probably never know, and maybe shouldn't, but maybe there was some incident, maybe some practical joke gone bad.  Maybe it was PED related.  I just can't fathom how Ortiz didn't have some kind of trade value, let alone pass through waivers.

I take that as a shot at Tom Kelly, who probably had the biggest influence on Otriz time in the organization and his subsequent release.

[Boom Boom]

It's true that many teams could have signed Ortiz before he landed in Boston. But none of those teams were as wrong about Ortiz as the Twins, who had him, and then let him go for nothing.

[Shaitan]

The only person afraid of the past here is Ortiz, who is still whining about a move from a decade ago that ultimately improved his career.

[PseudoSABR]

I blame Matt LeCroy.

[Willihammer]

 

 

Ortiz paused and shook his head over another bad Twins memory from 1999: “I was in Triple-A in Salt Lake, hammerin’, and every team that we played, some player who had been in the big leagues would say, ‘David, what are you doing here? The Twins can’t score runs, they don’t have power, you’re exactly what they need.’

“Nobody could understand.”

Especially Ortiz, then 23 and hitting 30 home runs and driving in 110 in Salt Lake City, and waiting until mid-September to play in 10 games for the feeble Twins.

For those who forgot, the Twins fielded a 25 year old Doug Mientkewicz at 1B that season. Who finished with a .229/.324/.330 (.665) line and -1.7 WARs.

[Twodogs]

 

Despite what Ortiz says and has said over the years, I'm not positive that the Twins way of teaching hitting didn't benefit his career.  Teaching players to be complete hitters can help lengthen careers, shorten slumps, and overall, stay on pitches even if you ultimately pull that pitch.  I'm not sure Ortiz still plays, wins batting titles, and goes oppo over the Monster for playoff grand slams if the Twins system doesn't teach him to stay on pitches and drive the ball opposite field.  The Twins allow pull hitting and power hitting.  Morneau, Dozier, signed Thome, Willingham, etc.  I've never been critical of the Twins insistence that young players learn to go the other way so that their 15 minutes in the league don't end up like McCarty, Valencia, Arcia or Vargas.  Maybe they'll go somewhere and hit a ton, but guys like Ortiz are rare.

Those other guys you mention came in with Gardy as the Manager.  Ortiz came in with TK.  TK didn't like Ortiz's approach at the plate, he referred to it as a slow pitch softball swing, and TK was great but he was also very stubborn too.

[Twodogs]

 

 

I take that as a shot at Tom Kelly, who probably had the biggest influence on Otriz time in the organization and his subsequent release.

Yes, exactly, I saw this after I read the other post.  TK was the person who had a giant influence on Ortiz.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I am tired of Big Papi. How can a guy who has had everything hold a grudge for so long? Plus he conveniently forgets that he sat unsigned for a month and when he signed with Boston it was for far less than he would have been due in arbitration. Plenty of teams agreed with the Twins assessment.

 

But the Twins were the most wrong in their assessment, they had him and chose to release him.

 

His grudge might be a combination of regretting that he had to leave here and bitterness with how he was treated.  Plenty of us feel that way about past employers, few of us go on to have enough success in the same field to publicly rub their nose in it.  He's sort of earned the right to do that.

 

I like to think the Twins have slowly learned their lesson on this.  For awhile I think they got too rigid in what the "right way" was and it caused a number of issues from over-reliance on certain types of pitchers, certain types of hitters, certain approaches to the game, personality types, etc. I think we've come out of that, but Ortiz was very much a major symptom of a problem.

[Twodogs]

 

 

For those who forgot, the Twins fielded a 25 year old Doug Mientkewicz at 1B that season. Who finished with a .229/.324/.330 (.665) line and -1.7 WARs.

TK was the manager and he managed before the ideas of moneyball took hold.  Doug could catch the ball over at first base and that was more important to TK than what Ortiz could bring to the table at that point in time.  Plus, with those guys that TK assembled, Gardy went on a pretty good run with playoff teams year after year not to mention he avoided contraction.

[dgwills]

During that time I went to every home game. A friend of mine had 4 season tickets because his wife worked for the Twins. A lot of people were in favor of letting Ortiz go because he couldn't play defense. I thought he was the best hitter on the team. When he came up to bat you were excited. The arguments were short though because we had much different evaluations of Ortiz.

What the Twins should of learned was not to get rid of your best hitter. I agree with Ortiz as well that they likely would of won some championships with him on the team and I don't blame him at all for being salty about it. He did everything they asked, was successful, then they let him go.

[MrPotential]

How do our current bubble players fit into what we hope to be?  What would it take from them to qualify as having a successful season?

[Linus]

But the Twins were the most wrong in their assessment, they had him and chose to release him.

 

His grudge might be a combination of regretting that he had to leave here and bitterness with how he was treated. Plenty of us feel that way about past employers, few of us go on to have enough success in the same field to publicly rub their nose in it. He's sort of earned the right to do that.

 

I like to think the Twins have slowly learned their lesson on this. For awhile I think they got too rigid in what the "right way" was and it caused a number of issues from over-reliance on certain types of pitchers, certain types of hitters, certain approaches to the game, personality types, etc. I think we've come out of that, but Ortiz was very much a major symptom of a problem.

Obviously it was the wrong move - Nobody is claiming that it wasnt. What I am pointing out is that it wasn't so obvious at the time.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Obviously it was the wrong move - Nobody is claiming that it wasnt. What I am pointing out is that it wasn't so obvious at the time.

 

In part, that's the Twins fault too.  They were trying to make Ortiz something he wasn't and we never got to see the full potential.

[lightfoot789]

PRODUCTION!!! That's what Ortiz provided.  End of story.  That's what will get Ortiz into the HOF along with some "Clutch" hitting (Lol / Seth) in the playoffs.  That's why TR is upset with himself.  He let a PRODUCTIVE hitter star someplace else when he had him in his own house.

 

It's ok to let players go.  Just get something for them while you can.  Sometimes it is just the coaching connection.  [Worley, Colabello, Loriano; Garza; Gomez; Ortiz] all found their role once they left.  Not that they're Hall of Famers, but they all became better once they left the organization.  It happens with every organization, just more memorable with some clubs.  Trades - Not Releases

 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

The use of the word fear makes it sound like the deciding to keep Arcia and Vargas will be a decision made out of weakness. The upside of every player is an important factor in any roster decision every spring. Vargas has an option left. He should be in AAA as depth. He can tear it up and force the Twins hand. Arcia represents their best 2016 upside for left handed power. He represents their best upside to step in for Park if he is not ready. That has to be considered while forming the roster. It doesn't need to be done out of fear.

worried about running out of first base/ DH types? If Mauer goes down, and Arcia goes down, and Park goes down, then they'll only have Sano and ABW left! Then what?

[Twodogs]

 

worried about running out of first base/ DH types? If Mauer goes down, and Arcia goes down, and Park goes down, then they'll only have Sano and ABW left! Then what?

You forgot Vargas