Escobar's slash line since the Santana demotion

[gopherman23]

Ranks among MLB shorstops: Minimum 750 PA's 26 qualified players

 

OPS- 4th

wRC+- 5th

wOBA- 6th

WAR- 15th

 

WAR is a cumulative stat though, so since Escobar has roughly 300-400 AB's less than the leaders, his WAR is lower than it could be.

[AlwaysinModeration]

Here is a comparison since this year's trade deadline:

 

Player A: .221/.321/.323 for an OPS of .644 with 4 HRs and 2 doubles.

 

Player B: .293/.369./.573 for an OPS of .962 with 4HRs and 9 doubles.

 

Any guesses?

[Platoon]

Personally, I think settling for an average shortstop with a weak arm, limited range, and average speed is a horrible plan, regardless of who is catching. But then, I have never been one to just accept mediocrity as a ceiling. I certainly am happy for the team that he is hitting recently. A .250 hitter will have streaks of both kinds, hot and cold. The rest of the year counts. When a person comes to the plate, it is the same experience, regardless of where they play in a couple of minutes in the field on defense.

Concur! Giving a guy with Santana's tools and upside a look at SS on a team projected to lose games in the high 80's again was a sound idea. What's to lose? I prefer a SS who is a great glove, and can maybe hit. Not a SS who is a 2, 7, or 8 hitter and maybe field. Whether Santana can harness those glove tools is unknown, but he has them.

[Squirrel]

Concur! Giving a guy with Santana's tools and upside a look at SS on a team projected to lose games in the high 80's again was a sound idea. What's to lose? I prefer a SS who is a great glove, and can maybe hit. Not a SS who is a 2, 7, or 8 hitter and maybe field. Whether Santana can harness those glove tools is unknown, but he has them.

Personally, I've never been a fan of Santana's glove. I think he errs far too often on plays he shouldn't. While yes, he should still be given an opportunity to harness that upside, I think the leash should get shorter and shorter. No one here thinks Escobar is the long term solution, but given the choice, right now, I much prefer Esco and feel that Santana needs to actually prove to be the better all-around before being handed the job indefinitely like he was this year.

[lukeduke1980]

 

Here is a comparison since this year's trade deadline:

Player A: .221/.321/.323 for an OPS of .644 with 4 HRs and 2 doubles.

Player B: .293/.369./.573 for an OPS of .962 with 4HRs and 9 doubles.

Any guesses?

I would slide Player A into the 8 hole in the lineup

[jorgenswest]

 

Here is a comparison since this year's trade deadline:

Player A: .221/.321/.323 for an OPS of .644 with 4 HRs and 2 doubles.

Player B: .293/.369./.573 for an OPS of .962 with 4HRs and 9 doubles.

Any guesses?

 

With out any idea of plate appearances the data might not have meaning. It could even be two splits for the same guy with the small sample driving the variation.

[AlwaysinModeration]

With out any idea of plate appearances the data might not have meaning. It could even be two splits for the same guy with the small sample driving the variation.

Player A has been hitting leadoff for a team every day, whereas Player B hasn't even been a regular starter.

[AlwaysinModeration]

Player A: Tulo

Player B: Escobar

[DaveW]

MI thought then, and still do, the move was to sign Liriano to a cheap 3 or 4 year extension.

count me in that boat as well, I always thought it was stupid to give up on liriano, period. Turned out to be David Ortiz 2.0, the twins didn't like his attitude and got rid of him when they could have kept him for next to nothing. Same happened with Matt Garza as well.

 

Thank God we gave Nolasco 5x more money then we ever would have had to commit to Liriano!

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

count me in that boat as well, I always thought it was stupid to give up on liriano, period. Turned out to be David Ortiz 2.0, the twins didn't like his attitude and got rid of him when they could have kept him for next to nothing. Same happened with Matt Garza as well.

The Garza move was dumb.

 

I can't fault the Twins as much for Liriano, as the White Sox got nothing from him at all.

 

Good on Pittsburgh for finding a hitch in his delivery and fixing it.

 

What I learned from the Liriano situation is two things:

 

1. Rick Anderson was well past his shelf life

 

2. I wish the Twins were more like the Pirates

[USAFChief]

The Garza move was dumb.

 

I can't fault the Twins as much for Liriano, as the White Sox got nothing from him at all.

 

Good on Pittsburgh for finding a hitch in his delivery and fixing it.

 

What I learned from the Liriano situation is two things:

 

1. Rick Anderson was well past his shelf life

 

2. I wish the Twins were more like the Pirates

I think the lesson was always "don't let arms like that leave the organization if you can help it."

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think the lesson was always "don't let arms like that leave the organization if you can help it."

And that's fair but Liriano had been a bad player for quite some time. Ultimately, I believe it came down to the firing of Anderson, which was overdue.

 

I could get over Liriano.

 

I could get over Worley.

 

I could get over Dickey or whatever (fill in name of random pitcher here).

 

But all of them together? No, man. No.

[DaveW]

I really hope Escobar ends up being Dozier verizon 2.0, I would gladly eat my words about him.

 

His bat is looking straight up legit these days.

[Loosey]

If he is 80% of what he is during this current stretch, I would like him to be the starter for the next few years.  Maybe he "figured' it out.  His approach seems completely difference.  Look at the walks to strikeout ratio.

[Otto von Ballpark]

This stretch dates back to 2013 at AAA. He really found another level at the plate then. It has lasted long enough that there should be no question he is the everyday SS for this team, every day down the stretch and to begin 2016.

[Cap'n Piranha]

I'll say it right now--Esco should be the everyday starter until Nick Gordon is ready.  TR shouldn't even bother looking for a replacement (if one is presented to him, by all means investigate).

[jimmer]

 

 TR shouldn't even bother looking for a replacement (if one is presented to him, by all means investigate).

SOP

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Any math whizzes have the updated data on the Tulo vs Esco-bear contest?

[Major League Ready]

 

Any math whizzes have the updated data on the Tulo vs Esco-bear contest?

Since 7/13 ....   wRC+      OPS

 

Escobar ........   137           874

Tulo ..............    85            684

[twinsnorth49]

Anyone get the official distance on his HR last night? His power at times is simply shocking, that shot was masher territory.

[nicksaviking]

 

And that's fair but Liriano had been a bad player for quite some time. Ultimately, I believe it came down to the firing of Anderson, which was overdue.

 

I could get over Liriano.

 

I could get over Worley.

 

I could get over Dickey or whatever (fill in name of random pitcher here).

 

But all of them together? No, man. No.

 

The main head-scratcher regarding the Liriano situation was the use of his slider.  It has clearly always been his best pitch and it was abundantly clear that Liriano had his good seasons when he had high slider usage and poor seasons when he didn't.  It was also clear the Twins thought the pitch would lead to injury, yet it was the ultra-conservative Pirates who gave him a multi-year deal AND increased his slider percentage. 

[nicksaviking]

 

If he is 80% of what he is during this current stretch, I would like him to be the starter for the next few years.  Maybe he "figured' it out.  His approach seems completely difference.  Look at the walks to strikeout ratio.

 

If he's 80% of what he's been, I'd take him as a starter for the next 8 years.  Sorry Zoilo, but if he's 80% of what he's been during this current stretch, he'd be the best SS in team history.

 

Actually, I wouldn't be sorry even a little bit, it wouldn't be close.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The main head-scratcher regarding the Liriano situation was the use of his slider.  It has clearly always been his best pitch and it was abundantly clear that Liriano had his good seasons when he had high slider usage and poor seasons when he didn't.  It was also clear the Twins thought the pitch would lead to injury, yet it was the ultra-conservative Pirates who gave him a multi-year deal AND increased his slider percentage. 

Correlation does not imply causation.  It's quite likely that other issues were making the slider less effective (generating less K's and more walks), and he was then forced to rely more on the fastball.  (Just glancing at the numbers. he's also using a change up more in Pittsburgh too.)

 

The Twins certainly deserve some blame for not getting the most out of him, but it wasn't nearly as simple as "throw more sliders."

[nicksaviking]

 

Correlation does not imply causation.  It's quite likely that other issues were making the slider less effective (generating less K's and more walks), and he was then forced to rely more on the fastball.  (Just glancing at the numbers. he's also using a change up more in Pittsburgh too.)

 

The Twins certainly deserve some blame for not getting the most out of him, but it wasn't nearly as simple as "throw more sliders."

 

It could be, but I do remember talk from the team of limiting his slider usage durning his final season, but it could be that I'm just a big fan of the pitch.  Gibson's slider is a much better pitch than his fastball/sinker.  He should be using it more too from my point of view.

[70charger]

 

Correlation does not imply causation.  It's quite likely that other issues were making the slider less effective (generating less K's and more walks), and he was then forced to rely more on the fastball.  (Just glancing at the numbers. he's also using a change up more in Pittsburgh too.)

 

The Twins certainly deserve some blame for not getting the most out of him, but it wasn't nearly as simple as "throw more sliders."

 

"Imply" in this context is a synonym for "necessitate," and not for "implicate."

 

I think correlation implicates causation, especially in very controlled environments like balls, strikes, hits, and outs.

[Willihammer]

His at bats just look so haphazard to me. But, the stats don't like, Escobar has been very productive this year. I doubt his ability to keep it up but would love if he did.

[Jham]

 

His at bats just look so haphazard to me. But, the stats don't like, Escobar has been very productive this year. I doubt his ability to keep it up but would love if he did.

 

Haphazzard or organized chaos?  He's drawn more walks, hit for power from both sides.  I have zero problem with his approach.  I would say Escobar has marginal plate discipline which he makes up for with fantastic hand-eye coordination.  I think his success is sustainable, but am worried that he's becoming to homer-happy (pull happy), although he's shown the ability to hit the ball with authority to the opposite field, as opposed to having to learn to do that (Dozier).  He's also hit some absolute bombs as opposed to down-the-line wall scrapers.  This tells me his power is no fluke.  In fact only 2 of his 11 HR are considered "just enough" by ESPN's Homerun tracker compared to 9 of 27 for Dozier and 8-16 for Sano.  Every one of Esco's HR's this year would have been out in half of the parks, and most would have been gone in almost all parks.  So his HR totals may actually be expected to go up.  http://www.hittrackeronline.com/detail.php?id=2015_4325&type=hitter

[Willihammer]

 

 

Haphazzard or organized chaos?  He's drawn more walks, hit for power from both sides.  I have zero problem with his approach.  I would say Escobar has marginal plate discipline which he makes up for with fantastic hand-eye coordination.  I think his success is sustainable, but am worried that he's becoming to homer-happy (pull happy), although he's shown the ability to hit the ball with authority to the opposite field, as opposed to having to learn to do that (Dozier).  He's also hit some absolute bombs as opposed to down-the-line wall scrapers.  This tells me his power is no fluke.  In fact only 2 of his 11 HR are considered "just enough" by ESPN's Homerun tracker compared to 9 of 27 for Dozier and 8-16 for Sano.  Every one of Esco's HR's this year would have been out in half of the parks, and most would have been gone in almost all parks.  So his HR totals may actually be expected to go up.  http://www.hittrackeronline.com/detail.php?id=2015_4325&type=hitter

Escobar has 57 HRs and 306 walks in almost 5000 major- and minor- league PAs. What is he doing differently since Aug 1? I would be very curious to read about some adjustment he has made that I'm just not seeing. Otherwise I fear we could be in for some Santana type regression, esp. in the power dept.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Escobar has 57 HRs and 306 walks in almost 5000 major- and minor- league PAs. What is he doing differently since Aug 1? I would be very curious to read about some adjustment he has made that I'm just not seeing. Otherwise I fear we could be in for some Santana type regression, esp. in the power dept.

Check Escobar's power dating back to his 2013 stint in AAA. I don't what exactly he did then, but he has been a markedly better hitter since that point, over 2 years ago.

[DocBauer]

Look, I'm not dismissing other people's opinions...nor am I comparing two gentlemen as being equals necessarily...but...remember when rumors of the Twins trading for Tulo ran rampant? I was against such a move due to the cost of prospects as well as years and dollars owed financially. And I was, originally, in the Santana camp to open the season based on potential, overall athleticism and what he did last season. But I was also in full agreement that Escobar should be the guy, and should have been the guy sooner than the move was made.

 

And now where are we today?

 

Toronto gave up prospects and is on the hook for an over 30 veteran who has struggled past his initial appearances, has struggled with injury, and is still owed multiple years at $20M per.

 

Meanwhile, Escobar is years younger, multiple millions of dollars cheaper, is playing quality defense, providing above average offense, and is proving 2014 and his ST of this season weren't a fluke.

 

What I'm saying is, sometimes the smart play isn't the big gamble or big move. Rather, it can sometimes be patience and just plugging the right man in the right job.