The Final Audition: Miranda, Julien, and Martin Fighting for Their Futures in Minnesota

[TwinsDr2021]

12 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Martin’s bat has been adequate for a 4th OF role. His glove was the problem but he is athletic enough to improve defensively.

Julien is just good enough to play for a bad team. He was best when Farmer was there to cover for his flaws.

Miranda is more likely to play overseas than in MLB.

The Austin Martin that plays for the twins? His career OPS is .664 (career minor league OPS is .764), which might be adequate if he was a good defender. 

IMO these three shouldn't be in the Twins plans, unless of course they trade Lopez and/or Ryan in the offseason then they should be starters on a team trying to win 60 games. 

[TwinsDr2021]

11 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

The clock struck midnight for both Miranda and Julien. I’ll be surprised if either one sign an MLB or MiLB deal this offseason. 

Martin seems to be taking advantage of the opportunity so far. Let’s see what he does during this 2 month audition. 

It is only 14 at bats but he has 4 singles and no walks, is that taking advantage? Sure he hasn't gotten hurt so that is a positive, but IMO every game since the first he has looked worse (or like he always has) which is only 2 games. (Julien has gotten on 3 times in 13 plate appearances with 1 double) 

 

[In My La Z boy]

11 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

The clock struck midnight for both Miranda and Julien. I’ll be surprised if either one sign an MLB or MiLB deal this offseason. 

Martin seems to be taking advantage of the opportunity so far. Let’s see what he does during this 2 month audition. 

And Julien fields the ball last night on a rocket to his left and in almost a slow motion full circle glove pat and spin can't get the ball to Clemons in time and the runner beats the 10 foot throw. Meanwhile Martin is hustling all over the field. Give me 9 Martins and No Juliens please.

[TwinsDr2021]

32 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Still crickets.   Zero position players in seven years under Rocco.

 

Here is an idea, lets have this front office that has failed to produce any real fulltime players and not one all star appearance rebuild the club. Seems like a wonderful idea. 

Twins All stars, Buxton (2)drafted by previous FO, Ryan, traded for, Castro signed as FO, CC, signed as FA, Gray, signed as FA, Lopez traded for, Arraez previous FO, Cruz signed as FA, Rogers, Polanco, Berrios previous FO, Odorizzi traded for. And only Ryan was established per se.

[NYCTK]

6 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

It is only 14 at bats but he has 4 singles and no walks, is that taking advantage? Sure he hasn't gotten hurt so that is a positive, but IMO every game since the first he has looked worse (or like he always has) which is only 2 games. (Julien has gotten on 3 times in 14 plate appearances with 1 double) 

 

It is pretty funny how biased people here are towards Martin. And it makes sense for two reasons:

He's been in the system for 5 years now so they've grown attached to him as well as and this sunk cost fallacy. Fans want to feel like they won the Berrios trade (which they arguably already did).

And he looks like a good athlete, a proper ballplayer. Just like the scouts in Moneyball, people have a hard time looking at players objectively. 

[Unwinder]

11 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Which position player has successfully transitioned (every day regular - average to above average) to the majors under Rocco?  He’s been at the helm since 2019.

Simple question. Just name one (other than Jeffers, a catcher).

Crickets. 

Arraez?

[Fire Dan Gladden]

Julien is a prime change-of-scenery candidate. He has the offensive tools to be useful, there are probably a handful of teams that think they could "fix" him.

Miranda's situation is worse. Somebody may take a flier on him, but I have a hard time seeing him in the organization in 2026.

Martin still has a window, but it is closing extremely fast. The Twins have a glut of prospects that may steamroll him as early as Spring Training 2026.

[Vanimal46]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

It is only 14 at bats but he has 4 singles and no walks, is that taking advantage? Sure he hasn't gotten hurt so that is a positive, but IMO every game since the first he has looked worse (or like he always has) which is only 2 games. (Julien has gotten on 3 times in 13 plate appearances with 1 double) 

 

Julien has also made 4 mental mistakes that little leaguers are taught not to do. I’m looking for hustle and effort at this stage of the season. Martin’s hustling out there right now. We will see if the bat shows up. 

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, NYCTK said:

It is pretty funny how biased people here are towards Martin. And it makes sense for two reasons:

Dashawn Keirsey makes Austin Martin look like an All-Star. Maybe that's the reason.

I think Martin's upside is 4th OF but with all the LH bat, marginal-defense corner outfielders in the system between MLB and AA there seems to be a spot for that. He has an OPS below 700 but it's OBP-heavy which is much more useful than if he hit .190 with an occasional HR. The key is he needs to be able to use his speed to produce actual range in the outfield. His glove will determine whether he can hold a spot on a major league roster.

[NYCTK]

1 minute ago, DJL44 said:

Dashawn Keirsey makes Austin Martin look like an All-Star. Maybe that's the reason.

I think Martin's upside is 4th OF but with all the LH bat, marginal-defense corner outfielders in the system between MLB and AA there seems to be a spot for that. He has an OPS below 700 but it's OBP-heavy which is much more useful than if he hit .190 with an occasional HR. The key is he needs to be able to use his speed to produce actual range in the outfield. His glove will determine whether he can hold a spot on a major league roster.

Don't disagree with any of that. Just comparing, in the wake of the fire sale, how people are talking about him versus how people are taking about Roden, who is, I'd argue, the much better bet. 

 

[TwinsDr2021]

20 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Julien has also made 4 mental mistakes that little leaguers are taught not to do. I’m looking for hustle and effort at this stage of the season. Martin’s hustling out there right now. We will see if the bat shows up. 

So you are saying Julien's isn't hustling and giving effort? He looks like he is, he just isn't a good second basemen and the Twins keep trying to hammer that square peg in a round hole. I am not defending Julien (I used to be a huge fan) it just seems weird people are holding Julien to a different standard than Martin, and Martin is like 40 days older and in 271 plate appearances hasn't shown he is even a decent major league hitter. IMO neither should be wasted time on, Martin is at best one of the last two men off the bench type of player, do the Twins really need to see more of him to know that. 

[Finlander]

Trade all 3 to the Athletics for a lottery ticket arm or something. They fixed Rooker, maybe they can do the same for some more of our developmental failures.

[NYCTK]

9 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Dashawn Keirsey makes Austin Martin look like an All-Star.

Keirsey tracker: He has been the worst (non-pitcher) hitter in Minnesota Twins history with at least 90 PAs, by wOBA. 

[Vanimal46]

4 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So you are saying Julien's isn't hustling and giving effort? He looks like he is, he just isn't a good second basemen and the Twins keep trying to hammer that square peg in a round hole. I am not defending Julien (I used to be a huge fan) it just seems weird people are holding him to a different standard than Julien and Martin is like 40 days older and in 271 plate appearances has shown he is even a decent major league hitter. IMO neither should be wasted time on, Martin is at best one of the last two men off the bench type of player, do the Twins really need to see more of him to know that. 

Julien is either not hustling or doesn’t understand simple fundamentals of baseball. And I don’t know what is worse. That double you mentioned should have been a triple, but he stood there admiring his hit instead. 

When your MLB career is on the line, I would probably focus on the little things. He does not. 

[ashbury]

3 hours ago, Fatbat said:

he will be our 4th OF/pinch running specialist for years to come. 

We're sure good at locking in our 12th and 13th man on the position-player roster.  Willi Castro was another one.  It would be nice if we could have similar success finding year-to-year stability at most of the starting positions.  😀

[TwinsDr2021]

26 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Keirsey tracker: He has been the worst (non-pitcher) hitter in Minnesota Twins history with at least 90 PAs, by wOBA. 

Which really shouldn't be a surprise to anybody, but yet it is.

[Otaknam]

Of the three Martin has the best chance to save his career with the Twins. But he has been passed by Cody Clemons, who has played well and actually had an impact with his bat. Martin’s only advantage is speed. 

[NYCTK]

Just now, Otaknam said:

Cody Clemons

Who?

[RpR]

4 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Still crickets.   Zero position players in seven years under Rocco.

 

You seem to be delusional .

[RpR]

4 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Still crickets.   Zero position players in seven years under Rocco.

 

Gryllidae

Should I say it again?

[Patzky]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Which really shouldn't be a surprise to anybody, but yet it is.

The Terry Felton of position players.

[Ex-Iowegian]

Not one of these 3 players are position players that should be starting for a perennial winning MLB team. That bar is so much higher than what this FO is capable of managing it’s laughable.

[thelanges5]

They’ve got a 2 month audition. May the best man win. Martin has the best chance of the three but will face competition from Roden and Outman. Julien is too much of a space cadet, especially if he cannot hit. 
 

Keaschall should be back tonight - Gasper down? 

[Mike Sixel]

26 minutes ago, thelanges5 said:

They’ve got a 2 month audition. May the best man win. Martin has the best chance of the three but will face competition from Roden and Outman. Julien is too much of a space cadet, especially if he cannot hit. 
 

Keaschall should be back tonight - Gasper down? 

Outman is only competition for..... No one. Worst trade ever, that doesn't include hindsight. 

[DocBauer]

IDK if the beanibg he had last year has messed him up or not, but Miranda struggling for a mid .500 OPS tells me he's done, unless there really is a medical issue. But even then, is there a fix?

There's room for Julien on the roster as a LH DH who can play little 2B/1B once in a while. IF his bat/approach truly is back. But even then, the Twins have a lot of LF OF hitters on the roster, or coming soon. There's even a couple interesting young RH OF coming up. And Keaschall will probably be the 2B very soon, with Schobel, Culpepper, DeBarge, and Houston all potentially ready for starting/utility/depth options begining as soon as 2026. So I dont see a long term fit for Julien. But there's room for him NOW.

Martin appears to be an athlete with little/no power that just isn't a natural baseball player. Now, he's still young enough and athletic enough to turn in to at least a competent, consistent OF, if not a little better than that. But opposite field, slap hitters don't provide a lot of offense. Can he not only improve his defense but develop a little more pop in his bat and pull the ball some?

I think Martin has the best chance to be a part of the Twins bench the next few years. But Ike with Julien, there's a handful of RH OF that might push him out of a job. (Somehow turning in to a solid CF increases his chances of sticking).

 

[jmlease1]

6 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Still crickets.   Zero position players in seven years under Rocco.

 

Wallner. (As noted elsewhere) Arraez. Jeffers. Royce Lewis (yes, he's been injured and inconsistent, but his bWAR per 162 games is 3.2)

I'm not going to pretend the Twins development of starting quality MLB position players has been sufficient under this regime; it clearly hasn't. But it's not zero, either.

Miranda looks like he's in trouble; I suspect the back injury may have something to do with it. If he's not able to get the hard contact he needs with his free swinging ways, he's simply not going to get it done, and he's been finding it harder to even cover the plate like he used to. He's always been a bat-first player, so if he's not hitting he doesn't add much of anything.

Martin is going to get an opportunity. I think he would have gotten it sooner this season if not for the hamstring injury. If his OF defense improves (he should be better than what he's shown with his speed) and he can get on base, he might still make it. Hopefully the Twins will be inclined to let him run if/when he gets on base and see what it looks like for him attacking the bases. Will he hit enough? Will he show he can be more than just a slap-hitter? He's going to get about 2 months to prove it. He's still got a decent floor with his speed and ability to get on base if he can show out better on defense.

Julien is the guy who is really on the fence. He needs to be able to drive the ball and make enough contact to prove he's not a Quad-A guy. It's certainly possible that 2023 was a mirage held up by an utterly unsustainable BABIP, but it's also possible that he can get back to stroking line drives again and elevating the ball effectively, which would also allow his patience to play better. We'll see. He should get regular time to complete the season and find out. But there's little room for him if he's not hitting. He hasn't been great since his return, unfortunately.

Martin seems like the most likely to stick because he's got more tools & utility. Could fill the Castro role if he's getting on base, which would be fine.

[Nashvilletwin]

3 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

Wallner. (As noted elsewhere) Arraez. Jeffers. Royce Lewis (yes, he's been injured and inconsistent, but his bWAR per 162 games is 3.2)

I'm not going to pretend the Twins development of starting quality MLB position players has been sufficient under this regime; it clearly hasn't. But it's not zero, either.

Miranda looks like he's in trouble; I suspect the back injury may have something to do with it. If he's not able to get the hard contact he needs with his free swinging ways, he's simply not going to get it done, and he's been finding it harder to even cover the plate like he used to. He's always been a bat-first player, so if he's not hitting he doesn't add much of anything.

Martin is going to get an opportunity. I think he would have gotten it sooner this season if not for the hamstring injury. If his OF defense improves (he should be better than what he's shown with his speed) and he can get on base, he might still make it. Hopefully the Twins will be inclined to let him run if/when he gets on base and see what it looks like for him attacking the bases. Will he hit enough? Will he show he can be more than just a slap-hitter? He's going to get about 2 months to prove it. He's still got a decent floor with his speed and ability to get on base if he can show out better on defense.

Julien is the guy who is really on the fence. He needs to be able to drive the ball and make enough contact to prove he's not a Quad-A guy. It's certainly possible that 2023 was a mirage held up by an utterly unsustainable BABIP, but it's also possible that he can get back to stroking line drives again and elevating the ball effectively, which would also allow his patience to play better. We'll see. He should get regular time to complete the season and find out. But there's little room for him if he's not hitting. He hasn't been great since his return, unfortunately.

Martin seems like the most likely to stick because he's got more tools & utility. Could fill the Castro role if he's getting on base, which would be fine.

Arraez might be the only example yet he was the product of a different front office. And he was there when Rocco first got the gig.  So it’s almost a good example.  Probs the best. But that also was nearly seven years ago. He hasn’t come close since. 

Wallner? Please.  I love the guy but he hasn’t even been able to stay in the show for a year. Up and down doesn’t count as a success.  Maybe he will be; but he’s a far cry still from an every day average to above average major leaguer. Heck, he barely sees left handed pitching.

Lewis is the best bet.  But he was a #1 pick for crying out loud. Yes, he’s been injured a lot, but even when healthy he’s not lived up to his potential.  I still have hopes for him though and would love to see him get to his potential (same for Wallner).  I just don’t think the chances of that are maximized under Rocco. 

[jmlease1]

9 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Arraez might be the only example yet he was the product of a different front office. And he was there when Rocco first got the gig.  So it’s almost a good example.  Probs the best. But that also was nearly seven years ago. He hasn’t come close since. 

Wallner? Please.  I love the guy but he hasn’t even been able to stay in the show for a year. Up and down doesn’t count as a success.  Maybe he will be; but he’s a far cry still from an every day average to above average major leaguer. Heck, he barely sees left handed pitching.

Lewis is the best bet.  But he was a #1 pick for crying out loud. Yes, he’s been injured a lot, but even when healthy he’s not lived up to his potential.  I still have hopes for him though and would love to see him get to his potential (same for Wallner).  I just don’t think the chances of that are maximized under Rocco. 

You made this about Rocco. Arraez never played a day in MLB before he was called up in May of 2019, so he debuted under Baldelli. If this is about whether Rocco and the MLB staff can "develop" position players, you have to count Arraez.

Wallner's bWAR per 162 is 3.3. He's got a career OPS+ in MLB of 133 to date. That's a legit starter. It just is.

Lewis' biggest problem has been injury, which isn't something I would hold the manager responsible for.

I'd say Jeffers still counts...care to find a new criteria to exclude him too?

There's been plenty of failure, either due to guys simply being unable to make the leap or injury: Kirilloff, Miranda, Julien, Gordon, and if you want to argue Larnach I don't think it's unfair; he looks like a bench/platoon bat not a starter. Too soon to say on Lee. They haven't done enough to produce enough of the kind of guys to replace the Kepler/Polanco/Rosario type position players as those guys aged out/got too expensive for what they were.

But it's not zero, and probably has a lot more to do with the minor league development staff, front office talent evaluation, injuries, and the player's real talent than the MLB manager.

[Nashvilletwin]

35 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

You made this about Rocco. Arraez never played a day in MLB before he was called up in May of 2019, so he debuted under Baldelli. If this is about whether Rocco and the MLB staff can "develop" position players, you have to count Arraez.

Wallner's bWAR per 162 is 3.3. He's got a career OPS+ in MLB of 133 to date. That's a legit starter. It just is.

Lewis' biggest problem has been injury, which isn't something I would hold the manager responsible for.

I'd say Jeffers still counts...care to find a new criteria to exclude him too?

There's been plenty of failure, either due to guys simply being unable to make the leap or injury: Kirilloff, Miranda, Julien, Gordon, and if you want to argue Larnach I don't think it's unfair; he looks like a bench/platoon bat not a starter. Too soon to say on Lee. They haven't done enough to produce enough of the kind of guys to replace the Kepler/Polanco/Rosario type position players as those guys aged out/got too expensive for what they were.

But it's not zero, and probably has a lot more to do with the minor league development staff, front office talent evaluation, injuries, and the player's real talent than the MLB manager.

Like I said Arraez is the best example. But still that’s 5-7 years ago.

Wallner was a few ABs from being sent down before the All Star Break.  He has a long way to go.

Yes, the injuries re Lewis; but in no way can it be argued that he has demonstrated his potential when healthy.

But the key point is that a small/mid-market team like the Twins - that cannot compete in the FA market - must be exceptional at drafting and developing their talent in order to create and sustain any sort of competitive advantage.  One position player in seven years is appallingly bad.

The Twins under Falvey and Rocco have been exceedingly poor at doing so. 

[Rosterman]

I was hoping they would package Miranda like they did Dobnak, just to get something, anything, as well as a roster spot.

Julien isn't even a good bench/utility player at this point. Unless he is playing first base everyday in St. Paul, I would rather see the Twins give 40-50 at bats right now to Sabato than Julien. He showed promise, enough that when the choice was him or Steer, the Twins choose him and traded Steer. I would rather see Eeles up on the bench playing the utility role right now.

Martin has a chance to proce himself. Be the right-handed outfield guy spot we gave to Bader. He can aso sub at second.

I'm hoping the Twins have a third catcher on tap when rosters expand, and not named Pareda. (I miss the days when could bring up many multiples of players, just to sit on the bench at least and brask in major leafue life).