Marlins 8, Twins 6 (13 Innings): Horrible Situational Hitting Costs Twins Game, Season

[twinzcynic]

Bro, situational hitting stats are for morons and bozos!! I'm a smart baseball fan which means I only look at OPS, OPS+, xWOBA, etc. and never RBIs! This means that I LOVE the current brand of Twinz baseball, and couldn't care less that our RBI leader only has 68 RBI.

 

I also LOVE that we got rid of guys who have turned out to be great with RISP (Rooker, Arraez) while keeping guys who fit the way Falvine like to approach hitting. This has been a GREAT season, and I can't wait for more years of watching this exciting brand of ball.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

59 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

(Martin out at HP on a comebacker, Santana doubled-off 2B on a bunt attempt)

Stuff like this is coaching, too.

With a runner on third base and less than two outs, the Twins almost always put on a contact play. Many teams seem to do this nowadays. I guess under the belief that decisions need to be taken away from the players because players make poor judgment. 

There is no way Martin chooses to do that by himself. 

[twinzcynic]

8 hours ago, CoastiePilot08 said:

What an absolute disaster. 
 

seriously, what did this fanbase do to deserve this?

By being ok with mediocrity. By being ecstatic that we won 2 games against the Blue Jays last October because our 35 Million dollar SS played unreal ball, which gave these guys a few more years to instill mediocrity. By making excuses for a "pitching pipeline" that has only produced Ober, a few relievers, and squandered a few top 100 prospect level talents that they inherited. That's how. 

[DJL44]

8 hours ago, S Bart said:

Ken Rosenthal of THE ATHLETIC states that Rocco will return. The Twins would have to pay his salary if they let him go (paying 2 managers is unlikely). 

Season ticket renewals are going to plummet. The fanbase does not want to watch Rocco manage this team anymore.

[LewFordLives]

10 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I've been trying to be fair and just like you thinking what he might have been thinking.

In fairness... It's a tough situation because if the ball finds grass it's a force play and he's got to scramble over to third.

Bride did have to jump for the ball. 

However... I get lost when the replay sure seemed to suggest that he froze (which is the right thing to do when a bunt is in the air). But, then the ball was clearly caught... and then he broke for third.

That's the part of the whole thing that I just can't figure out. 

Did I see it correctly? If I did... It was such an unbelievable mistake. 

 

I will say that when I first saw it come off the bat it had such a strange trajectory that I thought it had bounced off the plate. Then he threw to second.  I had no idea what was going on.

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

Royce was right. He doesn't 'do slumps'. This isn't a slump. This is who he is as a hitter right now. He better get to work this off-season.

[LewFordLives]

1 minute ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

Royce was right. He doesn't 'do slumps'. This isn't a slump. This is who he is as a hitter right now. He better get to work this off-season.

For some of the younger guys it needs to be made clear that they are not guaranteed a spot on the MLB roster when spring training begins.

[NYCTK]

20 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

If the Twins want Polanco back they should be able to sign him this offseason quite cheaply. He was bad this year at the plate and in the field but that hasn't stopped them from signing guys before. Michael A Taylor was also bad this season - cut by the Pirates.

Yet still significantly better than Manuel Margot. 

[mnfireman]

11 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Stuff like this is coaching, too.

With a runner on third base and less than two outs, the Twins almost always put on a contact play. Many teams seem to do this nowadays. I guess under the belief that decisions need to be taken away from the players because players make poor judgment. 

There is no way Martin chooses to do that by himself. 

Like him or hate him, on the radio Gladden stated that with the infield back, as it was, the third base coach is supposed to let the runner know to wait for ball to get past the pitcher before breaking for home. This is how the team has always done it (it's also how I learned and how I coached it). No "contact play" when the IF is playing back (conceding the run).

So who failed to do their job, Watkins or Martin? Probably both.

[LastOnePicked]

8 hours ago, NYCTK said:

Why are we loyal to these businesses? It's very interesting to think about, especially in light of the atrocity committed in Oakland today. We're all beholden to billionaires, often evil men, that almost never give a damn about their community, either local or broader fanbase, outside of how much money they can squeeze from it. 

I don't know if they're evil or not. It's hard to judge what's in another person's heart. I suspect it's just more a product of living lives that are fundamentally different and detached from ours. And sometimes even just indifference is bad enough. Ownership here doesn't care about winning. This season has made that fundamentally clear. The Twins are a status accessory for the Pohlads, something that opens doors to deals and keeps them in rarified air.

For me, it's still the time I spent with my Dad in 1987 and 1991. It's in my blood. It's a part of who we are together. It's part of what it means to me to be Minnesotan.

But I gotta admit, that's fading fast. And it's not even so much the losing. Teams lose big games. Heartbreak is a part of baseball, and a huge part of smaller-market baseball. I get that. What I can't stand is an nearly endless cycle of incompetence and excuses. The Twins are not a serious team. They do not rise to face a challenge. They do not develop championship-caliber players.

Honestly, the only things I missed were the articles and comments here and the Gleeman/Bonnes banter. Otherwise, my blood pressure really, really enjoyed taking a long break from Twins baseball. I suspect the next break will be longer.

[LastOnePicked]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

You gave up in May. Your Choice... Live with it. 

And you're making yours as well, my friend. Enjoy.

[DJL44]

3 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Yet still significantly better than Manuel Margot. 

I have no idea how Margot survived the entire season on the roster. The Twins have this obsession with keeping "their guys" all season. Someone needs to explain "sunk costs" to this front office.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 minute ago, mnfireman said:

Like him or hate him, on the radio Gladden stated that with the infield back, as it was, the third base coach is supposed to let the runner know to wait for ball to get past the pitcher before breaking for home. This is how the team has always done it (it's also how I learned and how I coached it). No "contact play" when the IF is playing back (conceding the run).

So who failed to do their job, Watkins or Martin? Probably both.

All the usual chit chat between baserunners and base coaches. Thanks for that extra detail about the rest of the infield playing back. I did not catch that on television. I like Gladden. 

[NYCTK]

4 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

I don't know if they're evil or not.

I'll say, that evil comment is a bit hyperbolic, and directed less at the current Pohlads, who are just loser nepo babies, than their father and more directly at Fisher (and some other very public billionaires).

More pointedly, a good billionaire is basically an oxymoron. 

[Riverbrian]

I really don't want to over focus on Santana getting doubled off... However... Here is another point that I would like to make. 

On the failed bunt attempt itself.

I don't know if Jeffers decided to bunt on his own or if Rocco put the bunt on. Vazquez said that he made the call to bunt so I guess that means it's possible that Jeffers decided on his own. 

A bunt in that situation isn't a bad call... whoever made it. 

With that said... Here's my point. 

The team has a total of 10 successful sacrifice bunts over the course of the year. 10 is a pretty normal amount for a baseball team. Teams just don't bunt in this day and age. However... 5 of those successful bunts this year were by Vazquez. Only 4 other players have pulled it off successfully. Jeffers just once.  

All of sudden... season on the line. We are whipping the bunts out. They've suddenly become important after being basically ignored all season long? 

Again... it wasn't a bad call to bunt in that situation... However... If you need to lay down a bunt on September 26 and September 27 to stay alive. Doesn't it make sense to lay down some bunts in April, May, June, July and August so it isn't such a out of the ordinary experience when you NEED IT. 

I make the same point about starving your left handed hitters against left handed pitching. Come September 26 and 27 with the season on the line. You just might need Larnach to stand in there against a left hander in a big moment. Hiding Larnach from that moment all year long and saying... The playoffs are on the line... OK Now do it... is a bad idea.  

Use April, May, June, July and August for what you might need in September and the Playoffs.   

Anyway... It's just one point inspired by one moment in time. 

We lost 24 games in the last 36. The Tigers with nothing but youth meaning no vets at all went 26 and 10 and have passed us by 3 games with 3 games to go. There is much more than a failed execution of bunt to focus on.  

 

 

[Linehan]

I also have been following The Twins since the 60s played little league with Harmon Killebrews son Cam.                     I moved to Orange County 36 years ago but still have the childhood attachment to the twinkies. This was the most disappointing stretch I can remember.        The Twins 3 best players all played about a hundred games and in all honesty, the rest of the every day lineup just isn’t that good. The injuries to the pitching staff, and the under performance of all but three of our relief pitchers in the last two months spelled doom.                                   I’m sure some coaches will get the axe maybe even Rocco but with some luck with our young pitchers and positional prospects we may be competitive for 2025 and beyond. 

[Linehan]

I also have been following The Twins since the 60s played little league with Harmon Killebrews son Cam.                     I moved to Orange County 36 years ago but still have the childhood attachment to the twinkies. This was the most disappointing stretch I can remember.        The Twins 3 best players all played about a hundred games and in all honesty, the rest of the every day lineup just isn’t that good. The injuries to the pitching staff, and the under performance of all but three of our relief pitchers in the last two months spelled doom.                                   I’m sure some coaches will get the axe maybe even Rocco but with some luck with our young pitchers and positional prospects we may be competitive for 2025 and beyond. 

[Linehan]

I also have been following The Twins since the 60s played little league with Harmon Killebrews son Cam.                     I moved to Orange County 36 years ago but still have the childhood attachment to the twinkies. This was the most disappointing stretch I can remember.        The Twins 3 best players all played about a hundred games and in all honesty, the rest of the every day lineup just isn’t that good. The injuries to the pitching staff, and the under performance of all but three of our relief pitchers in the last two months spelled doom.                                   I’m sure some coaches will get the axe maybe even Rocco but with some luck with our young pitchers and positional prospects we may be competitive for 2025 and beyond. 

[Unwinder]

9 hours ago, S Bart said:

Unless this Caribou coffee Twins cap giveaway is a big draw during "FAN APPRECIATION WEEKEND" (obviously, not a great time to hold that event :), the attendance will be quite low.

To be fair, when the team doesn't deserve fans, that's probably the most appropriate time to appreciate the fans. I'd like to see some groveling, personally.

Sorry to everyone who thinks we need to boycott the team or whatever, unless one of you wants to step up and buy me a boat, I'm going to keep paying for this garbage because they still haven't come up with a better thing to go out and do on a summer night.

[David Maro]

Hey don't worry ticket prices will be going up next year to see this crap.

Rocco and his merry men have to go.

[DJL44]

35 minutes ago, LewFordLives said:

For some of the younger guys it needs to be made clear that they are not guaranteed a spot on the MLB roster when spring training begins.

Do you think they are going to bring in high-priced veteran talent to keep the rookies in AAA? 

[Finfineman]

MLB is broken.  Small market teams arent given the same chance as major market teams.  I stated that three years ago and was told I was wrong and to look at the Rays and Blue Jays.  Well look at them now.  The small market teams win and their players get poached or leave.  It will happen to Baltimore, just watch.  That doesnt alleviate the responsibility that a small market team has.  When its your turn, you need to make the most of it.  The Twins opted out this year.  They were one Ace away from the playoffs and want us to accept Mathews and Festa in his place.  Thats a poor product.   Only poor gate attendance will get their Profit and Loss minds back.  It may be too late.

[LambchoP]

This shite show of a game was the perfect final nail in the coffin for this pathetic collapse this season. Playing a 100 loss team who commits 3 or 4 errors each game and strikes out 20 times, and we still can't find a way to scratch out a win. I was having fun for awhile watching our team when they were rolling in early summer. Man, this past month has been brutal. And we can't blame it on I juries, we have almost a full team. Can't blame it on fatigue, every other team has played just as much and they find ways to make it work. It's just poor execution, starting with horrible game management, coaching and no accountability. Strike out five times, no problem, you're leading off tomorrow. Go 0-30 in PH opportunities, no problem, we'll just keep trying. I really hope this horrible showing to finish the season forces some real changes in the off season, but I doubt it. We're probably looking at at least one more year of the same exact thing as this year. Cut payroll, no free agents, rely on rookies and young guys coming up, Lee's, Buxton and Correa constantly hurt and laughably bad management from Rocco.....

[Riverbrian]

2 minutes ago, Finfineman said:

Only poor gate attendance will get their Profit and Loss minds back.  It may be too late.

My guess is that it poor gate attendance means less revenue and therefore further tightening of the belt. Team payroll is not at the bottom of the league. It can go down further if we are insistent on making it so.  

 

[Linus]

37 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

Like him or hate him, on the radio Gladden stated that with the infield back, as it was, the third base coach is supposed to let the runner know to wait for ball to get past the pitcher before breaking for home. This is how the team has always done it (it's also how I learned and how I coached it). No "contact play" when the IF is playing back (conceding the run).

So who failed to do their job, Watkins or Martin? Probably both.

Yea I was going to post this assuming modern baseball does it the same way. The runners job is to make sure the ball isn’t going to be fielded by the pitcher before he breaks. While the third base coach should be helping is Martins job and he failed. He is a very fundamentally unsound player. 

[S Bart]

27 minutes ago, Unwinder said:

To be fair, when the team doesn't deserve fans, that's probably the most appropriate time to appreciate the fans. I'd like to see some groveling, personally.

Sorry to everyone who thinks we need to boycott the team or whatever, unless one of you wants to step up and buy me a boat, I'm going to keep paying for this garbage because they still haven't come up with a better thing to go out and do on a summer night.

Groveling would be good.

[Riverbrian]

45 minutes ago, LewFordLives said:

For some of the younger guys it needs to be made clear that they are not guaranteed a spot on the MLB roster when spring training begins.

They should know that.

They've done their time in St. Paul for their crimes. 

The Top ten leaders in AB's this year were(in order):

Castro, Santana, Jeffers, Miranda, Kepler, Larnach, Buxton, Correa, Margot and Vazquez.

From that group of 10... only two (Miranda and Larnach) are pre-arb.

For some of the older guys... it needs to be made clear that the young guys may not save them.        

[Linus]

1 minute ago, Riverbrian said:

They should know that.

They've done their time in St. Paul for their crimes. 

The Top ten leaders in AB's this year were(in order):

Castro, Santana, Jeffers, Miranda, Kepler, Larnach, Buxton, Correa, Margot and Vazquez.

From that group of 10... only two (Miranda and Larnach) are pre-arb.

For some of the older guys... it needs to be made clear that the young guys may not save them.        

I suspect payroll constraints will take care of weeding out some vets.  The tough part is that none of the young guys showed enough to really count on them next year and we won’t pay the vets. Rock and a hard place. 

[USAFChief]

8 minutes ago, Linus said:

Yea I was going to post this assuming modern baseball does it the same way. The runners job is to make sure the ball isn’t going to be fielded by the pitcher before he breaks. While the third base coach should be helping is Martins job and he failed. He is a very fundamentally unsound player. 

Martin also, once again, failed to score from second on a hit to the OF (Larnach).

 

That's the second time just this week.

 

Effectively they were 1 for 19 with RISP rather than 2 for 19.

[Riverbrian]

6 minutes ago, Linus said:

Yea I was going to post this assuming modern baseball does it the same way. The runners job is to make sure the ball isn’t going to be fielded by the pitcher before he breaks. While the third base coach should be helping is Martins job and he failed. He is a very fundamentally unsound player. 

That play was also a what the hell happened there moment. 

I couldn't tell if he was just being overly aggressive with his lead off the base... But with the infield playing back and conceding the run. It shouldn't have been a contact play. 

Martin would have learned this at Vanderbilt if he hadn't learned it in High School. I'm thinking maybe he got aggressive with his secondary lead and knew he was hung up with a quick comebacker and from there the optics are going to look real bad. 

Otherwise... Oh Boy... It's a just a really really really bad decision for a professional player or 3B coach or Manager to make.