Twins 2, Pirates 0: Dallas Keuchel Flirts With Perfection; Twins Take Series

[Hubie29]

12 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

No other manager makes a different decision there. It is how the game works. I don't even know how this is debatable (other than the FO only gave him the choice of Gallo, but that's not his fault).

Well,  I guess the game has passed me by then.  I can't buy that strategy. 

[Hubie29]

11 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

If Luplow is only going to get at max 1-2 AB in this game, does it matter if it's automatically known he will hit against a LHP in the 1st inning, or just possibly against a relief arm later?  I don't have a problem with the pinch hitting, especially because Luplow is on this team for one reason and that is to bat against LHP.

What I am saying is, Luplow vs. a right-hander is no worse than Gallo vs. anyone.  I guess I just wouldn't use that strategy.  Shortens your bench in the 3rd inning.  But Baldelli was manager of the year.

[Mike Sixel]

10 minutes ago, Hubie29 said:

Well,  I guess the game has passed me by then.  I can't buy that strategy. 

Passed you by? This would be the strategy for decades. 

[Dman]

Kudos to Keuchel on a well pitched game.  I never would have thought it possible to see him throw a perfect game through 6 innings given his pitch to contact repertoire. Class act for the fans to give him a standing ovation as he left.  That had to feel good after getting killed his last time out. Have to say he is full of surprises.  If he keep the team in games I hope they keep throwing him out there.

[USAFChief]

20 minutes ago, Hubie29 said:

What I am saying is, Luplow vs. a right-hander is no worse than Gallo vs. anyone.  I guess I just wouldn't use that strategy.  Shortens your bench in the 3rd inning.  But Baldelli was manager of the year.

What's new here is the "opener" concept, which can complicate platooning, since the "bulk guy" is basically the starter, only he comes in some time after the "opener," and may not pitch with the same hand. A manager may be forced into making a platoon decision way early. 

But platooning itself is as old as the advent of LH pitching. Which is to say, it's always been around. Tom Kelly used to use Mike Pagliarulo and Scotty Lieus at 3rd. Earl Weaver platooned. Casey Stengel. Etc etc. It's an age old way to try to squeeze a little more offense out of a position, since the platoon advantage/disadvantage is real, and almost universal. If your roster was big enough you'd ideally like to platoon most EVERY position. 

Your issues with Gallo are another issue entirely. And you should have the same, or worse issues with Luplow, BTW. Luplow is, if anything, a worse hitter than Gallo and a worse defender as well. 

The problem is having Gallo and Luplow as your choices, not Rocco trying to maximize his poor options. 

 

[Patzky]

18 hours ago, Hubie29 said:

Rocco always has been the smartest guy in the room, hasn't he?

He's playing chess while we're building rockets.

[Hubie29]

32 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Passed you by? This would be the strategy for decades. 

Wow ok. Don't remember it back in the Oliva, Carew, Killer days.  I am sure Killebrew would have been happy to bat leadoff and get pulled when they brought in a righty.  Not that Luplow is Killebrew. There is just zero reason to pull this move.  Hard to convince the disbelievers. You are killing me.  

[Mike Sixel]

6 minutes ago, Hubie29 said:

Wow ok. Don't remember it back in the Oliva, Carew, Killer days.  I am sure Killebrew would have been happy to bat leadoff and get pulled when they brought in a righty.  Not that Luplow is Killebrew. There is just zero reason to pull this move.  Hard to convince the disbelievers. You are killing me.  

come on. You just compared a career minor league player to two HoF players.....

[Minny505]

21 hours ago, Hubie29 said:

How do you like that move in the bottom of the 3rd? Have to go lefty/righty and bring in the mighty Gallo with only a guy on first and 2 out.  Of course a strikeout was the result. I could maybe see it if you were pinch hitting with a contact hitter. But even that would be a sttrrretccchhhh.  Luplow isn't that inept, that he can't face a righty in the third inning.  I wonder what Roccos charts were telling him? This kind of decision making is what has driven me nuts with this regime over the past few years. 

Two outs and bases clear, it's a brilliant move. On the season, Gallo has a 135 OPS+ with the bases empty. With runners on it's like a 70.

(Oddly, when those runners on base are in scoring position, it jumps back up to 130. This shape of production is consistent with his career too.) 

[KirbyDome89]

15 hours ago, stringer bell said:

but even with all the empty at-bats, Gallo has a .751 OPS, which is above league average. He dovetails this positive stat with decent defense. 

.166/.290/.379 with a 45% K rate since May. Nothing about him has been even close to league average for almost 4 months now. He has provided zero defensive value this year also. 

[Hubie29]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

It is in no way the same principal. Like not even close. Rocco does plenty that deserves some guessing and criticizing. We don't need to pretend like pinch hitting for Jordan Luplow and Harmon Killebrew are the same thing. No matter what inning it is or who hits for them. Come on now.

You miss the point.  It is the same principal. Regardless of the hitter, I am talking situation.  3rd inning, scoreless game, two out, what are you trying to accomplish? Especially with Gallo? You can't tell me they did that back in the 60's, 70's and even the 80's or 90's!  Probably never! Only with the new analytics and new wave management has this ever been.  

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, Hubie29 said:

You miss the point.  It is the same principal. Regardless of the hitter, I am talking situation.  3rd inning, scoreless game, two out, what are you trying to accomplish? Especially with Gallo? You can't tell me they did that back in the 60's, 70's and even the 80's or 90's!  Probably never! Only with the new analytics and new wave management has this ever been.  

As chief pointed out above, there weren't openers then either....it isn't "new analytics" at all. 

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, Hubie29 said:

Wow ok. Don't remember it back in the Oliva, Carew, Killer days.  I am sure Killebrew would have been happy to bat leadoff and get pulled when they brought in a righty.  Not that Luplow is Killebrew. There is just zero reason to pull this move.  Hard to convince the disbelievers. You are killing me.  

Platooning actually might have been more popular back then, at least with some of the best managers. no, you're not going to yank your stars early for a platoon advantage, but that's because they're stars. Less accomplished players need the platoon advantage to bring the team more success. 

Jacque Jones is one of the best examples of this in Twins history. He could mash righties, especially in his prime. But lefties were his kryptonite. 2002 was his best season at the plate, and would have come off even better if he'd been protected against lefties, because he hit like andrelton simmons against them.

Luplow is here for one reason: hit lefties. it's helpful that he's also a quality option defensively. it's reasonable to get him in early against a lefty starter, even if they're an opener, to try and get runs early, rather than wait and hope there's a good pinch-hitting opportunity...because it might not come. It's a reasonable move. The opener strategy is a challenging one if the team employing it has a couple of guys it can run out to take 2-3 innings each in part because you can't hide or deploy the guys who can't hit the same side pitcher as easily. And if Luplow has an objection to getting pulled, that's on him: he's a fringe MLB player who doesn't have the skills to be a regular starter.

[chpettit19]

17 minutes ago, Hubie29 said:

You miss the point.  It is the same principal. Regardless of the hitter, I am talking situation.  3rd inning, scoreless game, two out, what are you trying to accomplish? Especially with Gallo? You can't tell me they did that back in the 60's, 70's and even the 80's or 90's!  Probably never! Only with the new analytics and new wave management has this ever been.  

I don't miss the point. The point is wrong. Who the hitter is absolutely matters. Rocco wouldn't pinch hit for a HoFer in the 3rd. That is a very, very, very important piece of the equation. It's not the same principal. At all. The hitter matters in the situation.

They never did what? Pinch hit a lefty for a righty? I can absolutely tell you they did that back in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. As 2 others have pointed out, it's the opener that is different. Not any kind of analytics or lineup management changes. Platoons and pinch hitting has been around forever. The thing that has changed is pitcher usage so the timing of the pinch hitting has changed. 

The Pirates have 3 lefties on their roster. 1 of them is a starter so Rocco could be pretty confident that guy isn't going to come into the game at any point. One of them started the game, but Rocco knows he's a reliever so is only going through the lineup once max. That left Jose Hernandez as the only other lefty pitcher possible for the Pirates yesterday. He hadn't pitched in a while so Rocco knew he'd likely throw at some point. But he had his lefties spread out in the lineup with Gallo (who he knew would come in for the "bulk guy") in the 1 hole, Julien in the 5 hole, and Wallner in the 8 hole. Julien is his best lefty hitter, but Wallner and Gallo could be attacked by 1 lefty pitcher without having to go through a bunch of righties. So Rocco put the Pirate manager in a spot to have to decide if he wanted to attack Wallner and Gallo or Julien with his lefty. It's not hard to see the strategy there.

Your argument isn't with the strategy it's with Gallo. Which is a completely different argument that I don't think you'd find much pushback on at all around here. Shouldn't be on the roster. But the strategy was pretty sound this time given who the options available were.

[jorgenswest]

2 hours ago, Hubie29 said:

Wow ok. Don't remember it back in the Oliva, Carew, Killer days.  I am sure Killebrew would have been happy to bat leadoff and get pulled when they brought in a righty.  Not that Luplow is Killebrew. There is just zero reason to pull this move.  Hard to convince the disbelievers. You are killing me.  

Take a look at the game logs for their teammate Graig Nettles in 1969. Billy Martin platooned him almost exclusively. You will see games where he was pulled after 1 AB and games where he came in pretty early with a change in a pitcher. Tovar was off to a slow start that year so he platooned for a while with Nettles at 3B. He also platooned with Allison. I have no doubt that if Martin or Earl Weaver were managing today they would pinch hit early after the opener was taken out.

[USAFChief]

37 minutes ago, Hubie29 said:

Well, after my initial statement, I had 24 thumbs up, so we will agree to disagree. 

First rule of holes: when you find yourself in one, stop digging. 

[stringer bell]

3 hours ago, USAFChief said:

What's new here is the "opener" concept, which can complicate platooning, since the "bulk guy" is basically the starter, only he comes in some time after the "opener," and may not pitch with the same hand. A manager may be forced into making a platoon decision way early. 

But platooning itself is as old as the advent of LH pitching. Which is to say, it's always been around. Tom Kelly used to use Mike Pagliarulo and Scotty Lieus at 3rd. Earl Weaver platooned. Casey Stengel. Etc etc. It's an age old way to try to squeeze a little more offense out of a position, since the platoon advantage/disadvantage is real, and almost universal. If your roster was big enough you'd ideally like to platoon most EVERY position. 

Your issues with Gallo are another issue entirely. And you should have the same, or worse issues with Luplow, BTW. Luplow is, if anything, a worse hitter than Gallo and a worse defender as well. 

The problem is having Gallo and Luplow as your choices, not Rocco trying to maximize his poor options. 

 

For those of us old enough to remember, one of the top practitioners of platooning was former Twins manager Gene Mauch. He platooned Rob Wilfong and Bobby Randall, Mike Cubbage and John Castino, Glenn Adams and Jose Morales, Hosken Powell and Bombo Rivera and the list can go a lot longer than that. 

Yes, the Opener concept throws a wrench into the normal platoon operation, as well. As mentioned above, the "bulk" guy was a right hander and only one other lefty was in the Pirates BP, so Rocco started Luplow and hit him leadoff to assure that he'd get an at-bat against a lefthander. 

What I predicted in the game thread and still would like an answer to is why Baldelli didn't pinch hit Kepler and move Wallner to left field in the third inning. Kepler has hit very well lately and would be a superior choice over Gallo to hit or field. With all the off days, I don't think he really needed a rest. 

[Hubie29]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't miss the point. The point is wrong. Who the hitter is absolutely matters. Rocco wouldn't pinch hit for a HoFer in the 3rd. That is a very, very, very important piece of the equation. It's not the same principal. At all. The hitter matters in the situation.

They never did what? Pinch hit a lefty for a righty? I can absolutely tell you they did that back in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. As 2 others have pointed out, it's the opener that is different. Not any kind of analytics or lineup management changes. Platoons and pinch hitting has been around forever. The thing that has changed is pitcher usage so the timing of the pinch hitting has changed. 

The Pirates have 3 lefties on their roster. 1 of them is a starter so Rocco could be pretty confident that guy isn't going to come into the game at any point. One of them started the game, but Rocco knows he's a reliever so is only going through the lineup once max. That left Jose Hernandez as the only other lefty pitcher possible for the Pirates yesterday. He hadn't pitched in a while so Rocco knew he'd likely throw at some point. But he had his lefties spread out in the lineup with Gallo (who he knew would come in for the "bulk guy") in the 1 hole, Julien in the 5 hole, and Wallner in the 8 hole. Julien is his best lefty hitter, but Wallner and Gallo could be attacked by 1 lefty pitcher without having to go through a bunch of righties. So Rocco put the Pirate manager in a spot to have to decide if he wanted to attack Wallner and Gallo or Julien with his lefty. It's not hard to see the strategy there.

Your argument isn't with the strategy it's with Gallo. Which is a completely different argument that I don't think you'd find much pushback on at all around here. Shouldn't be on the roster. But the strategy was pretty sound this time given who the options available were.

If you read and understand my posts from the beginning, it IS ALL ABOUT THE STRATEGY. Gallo was just the cherry on top.  Pinch hitting in the third inning is ludicrous in a 0-0 game. I don't care about the "new wave"  managers and strategy. We will see how long this regime stays with this strategy. 

[chpettit19]

10 minutes ago, Hubie29 said:

If you read and understand my posts from the beginning, it IS ALL ABOUT THE STRATEGY. Gallo was just the cherry on top.  Pinch hitting in the third inning is ludicrous in a 0-0 game. I don't care about the "new wave"  managers and strategy. We will see how long this regime stays with this strategy. 

Or you just don't understand the strategy. 

And you've been proven wrong about it being "new wave" by multiple posters now. But you clearly don't care about the explanations of the strategy or the proof that your stance on this being new is wrong so I'm just going to see myself out of this convo.

[USAFChief]

14 minutes ago, Hubie29 said:

If you read and understand my posts from the beginning, it IS ALL ABOUT THE STRATEGY. ...  Pinch hitting in the third inning is ludicrous in a 0-0 game.

Which inning does it become acceptable to pinch hit?

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Which inning does it become acceptable to pinch hit?

When chief and I agree on something not being new fangled, you can bet it isn't. 

[terrydactyls]

Yes, platooning has been around a long time.  You can't blame that on Baldelli's alleged over use of metrics.  However, not in the third inning.  It was either done in the starting lineup (heavy on right handed hitters against a left handed starter) or late in the game when the game is close.

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't miss the point. The point is wrong. 

The point isn't "wrong."  It's his opinion and your opinion is different.  Just because you have different opinions, that is not a reason to tell someone that they just don't understand (as you did in a post so after).

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, terrydactyls said:

Yes, platooning has been around a long time.  You can't blame that on Baldelli's alleged over use of metrics.  However, not in the third inning.  It was either done in the starting lineup (heavy on right handed hitters against a left handed starter) or late in the game when the game is close.

The point isn't "wrong."  It's his opinion and your opinion is different.  Just because you have different opinions, that is not a reason to tell someone that they just don't understand (as you did in a post so after).

And as has been pointed out over and over the opener is the difference. The strategy has not changed. The time when the platoon advantage is taken advantage of has changed because the time when pitchers are pulled has changed. It did happen in the starting lineup yesterday. Rocco went "heavy on right handed hitters against a left handed starter." Then the other team went to their "bullpen" so a pinch hitter was used for one of those righties to take back the platoon advantage in a close game. That isn't a new strategy. The point is wrong.

Not to mention you left out the part where the other part of the point I was referring to included comparing Jordan Luplow to Hall of Famers. That's not an opinion. Actually, none of this is opinion. The strategy hasn't changed. Pinch hitting for Jordan Luplow isn't the same as pinch hitting for Harmon Killebrew. Those aren't opinions they're facts. The only thing that has changed is the time during a game that pitchers are changed. And that's been happening for years now. So I will stick with the point being wrong. Since it's easily proved that it's wrong.

There's a difference between someone liking the strategy and the strategy having changed. One of those is opinion the other is fact. The strategy hasn't changed. The point is wrong.

[terrydactyls]

19 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

And as has been pointed out over and over the opener is the difference. The strategy has not changed. The time when the platoon advantage is taken advantage of has changed because the time when pitchers are pulled has changed. It did happen in the starting lineup yesterday. Rocco went "heavy on right handed hitters against a left handed starter." Then the other team went to their "bullpen" so a pinch hitter was used for one of those righties to take back the platoon advantage in a close game. That isn't a new strategy. The point is wrong.

Not to mention you left out the part where the other part of the point I was referring to included comparing Jordan Luplow to Hall of Famers. That's not an opinion. Actually, none of this is opinion. The strategy hasn't changed. Pinch hitting for Jordan Luplow isn't the same as pinch hitting for Harmon Killebrew. Those aren't opinions they're facts. The only thing that has changed is the time during a game that pitchers are changed. And that's been happening for years now. So I will stick with the point being wrong. Since it's easily proved that it's wrong.

There's a difference between someone liking the strategy and the strategy having changed. One of those is opinion the other is fact. The strategy hasn't changed. The point is wrong.

It must be nice to be an all-knowing, ethereal being.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, terrydactyls said:

It must be nice to be an all-knowing, ethereal being.

There's nothing "all-knowing" about this. This isn't new baseball strategy. You know that, too. The strategy of starting righties against a lefty and then pinch hitting for some of those righties with lefties when a righty is brought in to pitch isn't new. I don't get why it's crazy that this is pointed out as a fact instead of opinion. It's not my opinion that that used to happen it's a provable fact. Suggesting Rocco should leave his platoon bats in when the pitcher changes is actually the idea that goes against decades of baseball norms.

[karcherd]

Yes platooning as been around for a long time in baseball.  The problem is the way the Twins employ the strategy.  You can not have a team of platoon players, you need to have stars and everyday players.  If you have 4 or 5 positions that you are platooning, the majority of your players are limited by nature and you will be a .500 team.  You need to have to 5 or 6 players that you can count on to be everyday players and mix and match the others in based on matchups.  We basically have three players that are not considered platoon players, Buxton when healthy, Correa and Polanco.  You don't have to sit a left handed hitting player against every left handed pitcher.  Only when you are facing the tougher left handers, do they sit.  Randy Johnson is the first example that comes to mind, many left hand hitting batters sat against him regardless if they were a starter or not because he was tough on them.  But we were sitting lefties against Joey Wentz of the Tigers, if Julien and Wallner can't hit him there are bigger issues.

[terrydactyls]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

There's nothing "all-knowing" about this. This isn't new baseball strategy. You know that, too. The strategy of starting righties against a lefty and then pinch hitting for some of those righties with lefties when a righty is brought in to pitch isn't new. I don't get why it's crazy that this is pointed out as a fact instead of opinion. It's not my opinion that that used to happen it's a provable fact. Suggesting Rocco should leave his platoon bats in when the pitcher changes is actually the idea that goes against decades of baseball norms.

I will agree that seeking a favorable matchup has been in existence for as long as I can remember, but you are not responding to the original objection.  The issue was doing it in the third inning.  That isn't something that was previously done (unless there was an injury).  Here's a scenario for you.  Your opponent uses a left handed pitcher to start a game.  Playing the match-up game, you go with a heavy right handed lineup.  All very traditional.  At the start of the 3rd inning, your opponent brings in a right handed pitcher.  Using your philosophy, you pinch hit for your right handers.  At the start of the 5th inning, your opponent brings in another lefty.  What is your move?  Use the remaining bench players so you can match up right handers against a lefty?  If so, you have now exhausted your bench and have no one left to pinch hit for the rest of the game.  My OPINION is that doing so is a very stupid move.  And if you hadn't wasted your original right handed lineup, they would now be facing a left handed pitcher again.  AND you would still have players left for late inning moves.

[MABB1959]

On 8/20/2023 at 4:28 PM, rv78 said:

16 K's. Pretty sure that box of chocolates is empty. Nothing new there and it is what we have come to expect. Another record.... here we come!

27 strikeouts would be fun to watch

[Hubie29]

3 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

I will agree that seeking a favorable matchup has been in existence for as long as I can remember, but you are not responding to the original objection.  The issue was doing it in the third inning.  That isn't something that was previously done (unless there was an injury).  Here's a scenario for you.  Your opponent uses a left handed pitcher to start a game.  Playing the match-up game, you go with a heavy right handed lineup.  All very traditional.  At the start of the 3rd inning, your opponent brings in a right handed pitcher.  Using your philosophy, you pinch hit for your right handers.  At the start of the 5th inning, your opponent brings in another lefty.  What is your move?  Use the remaining bench players so you can match up right handers against a lefty?  If so, you have now exhausted your bench and have no one left to pinch hit for the rest of the game.  My OPINION is that doing so is a very stupid move.  And if you hadn't wasted your original right handed lineup, they would now be facing a left handed pitcher again.  AND you would still have players left for late inning moves.

Thank you.  My thoughts exactly, but I am not going to convince anyone. From my original statement, it has gotten twisted more and more with every response. I never even used the word platoon.  You can't start going lefty, righty in the 3rd inning.  If you do, then you really give the opponent the advantage in later innings. 

[stringer bell]

52 minutes ago, karcherd said:

Yes platooning as been around for a long time in baseball.  The problem is the way the Twins employ the strategy.  You can not have a team of platoon players, you need to have stars and everyday players.  If you have 4 or 5 positions that you are platooning, the majority of your players are limited by nature and you will be a .500 team.  You need to have to 5 or 6 players that you can count on to be everyday players and mix and match the others in based on matchups.  We basically have three players that are not considered platoon players, Buxton when healthy, Correa and Polanco.  You don't have to sit a left handed hitting player against every left handed pitcher.  Only when you are facing the tougher left handers, do they sit.  Randy Johnson is the first example that comes to mind, many left hand hitting batters sat against him regardless if they were a starter or not because he was tough on them.  But we were sitting lefties against Joey Wentz of the Tigers, if Julien and Wallner can't hit him there are bigger issues.

With 13-man pitching staffs, platoons are limited. Pure platoons, where one player always starts against lefties and his platoon partner always starts against right handers are very rare. Much more common is the usage of hitters that get the majority of their starts when they have the platoon advantage. Given their stats for previous years, it would make perfect sense to get Farmer and Solano in the lineup every time against left handed pitching. This is reinforced by the dismal numbers that several Twins left handed hitters have put up against left handed pitchers--Kepler, Kirilloff, Wallner, and Julien. 

I would add Royce Lewis to the everyday player list and note that the catchers on the Twins alternate. Taylor gets some days off against right handers, but he is also pretty much an every day player. 

As for pinch hitting early, I agree with @chpetit19 that having an opener does change things and might necessitate an early move to the bench. Outside of an opener scenario, I also recoil when Baldelli goes to the bench in the middle innings, particularly when the Twins are ahead or a superior defensive player is removed. 

I wish the Twins had a more set lineup where 4-6 guys were always hitting in the same spot, but given their roster, that will not be happening at least this year.