Has Willi Castro Forced Himself into the Twins' Long-Term Plans?

[jimbo92107]

I like Nick Gordon, and I really admire how he fought back from all his physical ailments to become a good mlb ballplayer. However, Hunter is right: Willie Castro is better in every respect except pure power. Castro adds a lot of little, but important elements that are lacking in Gordon's game. Castro is slightly faster, but noticeably quicker with his first step, both stealing and fielding. Castro's arm is definitely stronger, and at least as accurate as Gordon's. Castro is a much better bunter, and a better all-around baserunner. Last, I would rather see Castro in the game during a clutch situation, whether you need a perfect fielding play, a steal, or need to get one more hit. 

Willie Castro has displaced Nick Gordon as a super utility player. This is not to say Gordon has no value. It's just that Castro is even better. 

[Hunter McCall]

5 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

This organization is not letting guys "earn" their way up. They continue to defer to veteran players with limited offensive upside, and this team needs to find multiple players with significant offensive upside. They just can't do that by continuing to roster these kinds of players.

Who else is going to play 5-6 positions on the field and provide the production he has? In a vacuum, yes, guys like Brooks Lee have more potential than Willi Castro, but they aren’t the same. You have to have a guy on your roster who can play many positions and there’s not one player in the organization who can do it better than Willi Castro has this year.

[Hunter McCall]

1 minute ago, jimbo92107 said:

I like Nick Gordon, and I really admire how he fought back from all his physical ailments to become a good mlb ballplayer. However, Hunter is right: Willie Castro is better in every respect except pure power. Castro adds a lot of little, but important elements that are lacking in Gordon's game. Castro is slightly faster, but noticeably quicker with his first step, both stealing and fielding. Castro's arm is definitely stronger, and at least as accurate as Gordon's. Castro is a much better bunter, and a better all-around baserunner. Last, I would rather see Castro in the game during a clutch situation, whether you need a perfect fielding play, a steal, or need to get one more hit. 

Willie Castro has displaced Nick Gordon as a super utility player. This is not to say Gordon has no value. It's just that Castro is even better. 

You add one really good point that I only touched on. He’s been so good in clutch spots. He’s quickly become one of my favorite players on the roster for that reason.

[Hunter McCall]

6 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Those things are bonuses, not essential. Offense is essential and until the Twins can figure out how to put a lineup of quality hitters together, elite defense and stealing bases should take a back seat.

It’s not like he’s been a liability at the plate. Again, he leads the position players in WAR, which makes your argument null and void. He’s done the most out of any Twins position player to help the team win. Therefore, his production doesn’t take a backseat.

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

I think he's 100% as good or better than Gordon, and the other guys (Martin for example) aren't sure things. I actually like Castro as a utility guy quite a bit. 

Normally I wouldn't mind him as a utility player, but with Correa glued to one infield position long term and literally a dozen infield-capable young players between the majors, AAA and AA who should currently be in consideration for the roles, I'd like to clear the stage for open auditions ASAP.

[Hunter McCall]

1 minute ago, nicksaviking said:

Normally I wouldn't mind him as a utility player, but with Correa glued to one infield position long term and literally a dozen infield-capable young players between the majors, AAA and AA who should currently be in consideration for the roles, I'd like to clear the stage for open auditions ASAP.

Who? Who are the dozen players that are ready to come up right now and provide more value than Willi Castro?

[nicksaviking]

2 minutes ago, Hunter McCall said:

It’s not like he’s been a liability at the plate. Again, he leads the position players in WAR, which makes your argument null and void. He’s done the most out of any Twins position player to help the team win. Therefore, his production doesn’t take a backseat.

How's my argument null and void when I said elite defense is a luxury and basically all of his WAR is tied up in the defense side?

This team desperately needs offense and their only hope for fixing that is in AAA and AA.

[ashbury]

4 minutes ago, Hunter McCall said:

Yes, a couple years to me is long-term for someone they signed to a minor league deal. My thought is, he’s the utility man for the next couple years. I think the WAR he’s provided for his role is rather valuable.

Not being someone the FO is constantly looking to replace is some form of security.  At present he's not going to lead the team anywhere, but it's not urgent to replace him either.  Many aspiring players would dream of doing so well.

I think of Eduardo Escobar, who developed some significant pop during his tenure in a similar role.  He got too good, in fact, and we had to part ways via a (productive) trade when he approached free agency time.  That's Castro's upside, to me.

That is still not "long-term" in the way that Royce Lewis and Brooks Lee are viewed as prospects, or Joe Ryan and Pablo Lopez and Bailey Ober are.  Players who stand to end up with a half-decade or more as full-load contributors.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

1 hour ago, Hunter McCall said:

Who’s going to steal 20 bases and play elite defense while playing several positions? Yes, the Twins have minor league talent, but none with the ability to bring what he has to the utility position.

I love a good super utility guy as much as the next, and think he’s earned his spot over G-Cinco, but let’s not over-sell his fielding. He’s average in 6 positions. That has value, but he’s not an “elite fielder”

[Hunter McCall]

3 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

How's my argument null and void when I said elite defense is a luxury and basically all of his WAR is tied up in the defense side?

This team desperately needs offense and their only hope for fixing that is in AAA and AA.

Because WAR is WAR. He’s provided more value than anyone. You can’t just say that one part of the game is more important than the other. 

[Hunter McCall]

2 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Not being someone the FO is constantly looking to replace is some form of security.  At present he's not going to lead the team anywhere, but it's not urgent to replace him either.  Many aspiring players would dream of doing so well.

I think of Eduardo Escobar, who developed some significant pop during his tenure in a similar role.  He got too good, in fact, and we had to part ways via a (productive) trade when he approached free agency time.  That's Castro's upside, to me.

That is still not "long-term" in the way that Royce Lewis and Brooks Lee are viewed as prospects, or Joe Ryan and Pablo Lopez and Bailey Ober are.  Players who stand to end up with a half-decade or more as full-load contributors.

Correct, I didn’t mean they should give him a lifetime contract, but they also shouldn’t option him when Nick Gordon gets back. He should be around for a couple more years imo

[Hunter McCall]

2 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

I love a good super utility guy as much as the next, and think he’s earned his spot over G-Cinco, but let’s not over-sell his fielding. He’s average in 6 positions. That has value, but he’s not an “elite fielder”

8 defensive runs saved ranks tied for 19th in the MLB and he’s in the 70th percentile in OAA and 81st percentile in arm strength according to baseball savant. I get that he may be better at one position compared to the other, but he’s been as good as they come for a utility man.

[nicksaviking]

Just now, Hunter McCall said:

Who? Who are the dozen players that are ready to come up right now and provide more value than Willi Castro?

Sure, I'll give you a list. This team needs to give as many ABs as possible to the following to see which one's sink or swim:

Julien, Lewis, Miranda, Prato, Williams, Martin, Helman, Lee, Severino, Gray, Soularie and Isola. 

All of those guys have higher upside than Castro and play infield. The way this team is running things, they'll never have a chance to give half of them a legit  audition. Clear the deck, start doing it now.

[nicksaviking]

6 minutes ago, Hunter McCall said:

Because WAR is WAR. He’s provided more value than anyone. You can’t just say that one part of the game is more important than the other. 

WAR isn't the omnipotent data point you think it is. It values defense way too highly. I most certainly can say that offense is more important than defense. It's also harder to find, so we should be looking for that first.

[Hunter McCall]

Just now, nicksaviking said:

Sure, I'll give you a list. This team needs to give as many ABs as possible to the following to see which one's sink or swim:

Julien, Lewis, Miranda, Prato, Williams, Martin, Helman, Lee, Severino, Gray, Soularie and Isola. 

All of those guys have higher upside than Castro and play infield. The way this team is running things, they'll never have a chance to give half of them a legit  audition. Clear the deck, start doing it now.

Royce Lewis is the only guy on this list that I’ll agree could play the utility role and he’s currently out until at least mid august. Julien can’t field at any position, Miranda has been the worst player on the planet for 2023 and has by no means earned a spot over Castro, and not one other player mentioned is ready to play in the MLB.

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, nicksaviking said:

Sure, I'll give you a list. This team needs to give as many ABs as possible to the following to see which one's sink or swim:

Julien, Lewis, Miranda, Prato, Williams, Martin, Helman, Lee, Severino, Gray, Soularie and Isola. 

All of those guys have higher upside than Castro and play infield. The way this team is running things, they'll never have a chance to give half of them a legit  audition. Clear the deck, start doing it now.

Miranda is not ready for MLB right now, even if healthy. Lewis and Julien are starters. 

Lee? There is no hurry to see if he's ready. 

Martin isn't healthy or ready.

Severino? Well, I'd have him in AAA right now to see if he can play, but he can play 3B ok and maybe 1B, but he's no utility player at all. Has he ever played the OF?

Williams and Prato aren't utility players......

[SwainZag]

21 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

This organization is not letting guys "earn" way up. They continue to defer to veteran players with limited offensive upside, and this team needs to find multiple players with significant offensive upside. They just can't do that by continuing to roster these kinds of players.

Outside of recent Wallner decisions, who hasn't gotten a chance to earn their way up?  

[Hunter McCall]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

Miranda is not ready for MLB right now, even if healthy. Lewis and Julien are starters. 

Lee? There is no hurry to see if he's ready. 

Martin isn't healthy or ready.

Severino? Well, I'd have him in AAA right now to see if he can play, but he can play 3B ok and maybe 1B, but he's no utility player at all. Has he ever played the OF?

Williams and Prato aren't utility players......

Exactly my point!! Thank you!!

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, RpR said:

He has earned his spot;  any one else will have to earn their way up, not be wishful thoughts.

Agreed - the perpetual thought that we have guys in “our system” that will easily outperform guys on the Big Club is wishful thinking about 80% of the time. Castro, with some defensive reps in fall ball/winter league/spring training, may be our starting CF in ‘24 & going forward.

I may be the biggest Nick Gordon proponent there is but Castro plays IF/OF as well, runs bases better, has a bigger frame, a great arm, exceptional speed, & more long-term power potential.

Gordon - Larnach - Miranda - Sands - Winder - SWR are all pieces to group together however suitable to net some help for our Big Club.

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, SwainZag said:

Outside of recent Wallner decisions, who hasn't gotten a chance to earn their way up?  

Severino is sitting in AA mashing and not in MN or AAA, despite there being no real 3B on the MN roster....Williams could play 1B and AK to the outfield. Those are two obvious ones

[nicksaviking]

1 minute ago, SwainZag said:

Outside of recent Wallner decisions, who hasn't gotten a chance to earn their way up?  

I'd start by looking at every St. Paul Saint with an OPS over .800.

[Hunter McCall]

2 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

I'd start by looking at every St. Paul Saint with an OPS over .800.

Name one that would step into Castro’s role and outperform him.

[nicksaviking]

18 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Miranda is not ready for MLB right now, even if healthy. Lewis and Julien are starters. 

Lee? There is no hurry to see if he's ready. 

Martin isn't healthy or ready.

Severino? Well, I'd have him in AAA right now to see if he can play, but he can play 3B ok and maybe 1B, but he's no utility player at all. Has he ever played the OF?

Williams and Prato aren't utility players......

Yeah, I'm used to having a utility player on the team, but for the foreseeable future, I want to see them giving as many MLB ABs as possible to these guys, Sure, some could use time in AAA, but others could audition right now. They have enough players with flexibility to make that happen even without a traditional utility player. It's not ideal, but the clock is ticking.

If Brian Dozier or Luis Arraez had been coming up as non-elite prospects right now, would we have ever known what they could have become? There just seems like too many mouths to feed at the moment and most aren't getting fed.

I'd also be more than happy to compromise on the matter and wait to do anything until Lewis comes back. Then with Correa's backup on the roster, Castro could be optioned and the search for the future could commence in force.

[nicksaviking]

5 minutes ago, Hunter McCall said:

Name one that would step into Castro’s role and outperform him.

Any of them could and we won't know until they start giving them a shot.

[Vanimal46]

52 minutes ago, Hunter McCall said:

I hear you, but until then, he should be cemented in as their utility man in my opinion over guys like Nick Gordon.

No doubt, I’m with you. I have no qualms about Castro keeping this role over Gordon when he returns. 

[Hunter McCall]

7 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Any of them could and we won't know until they start giving them a shot.

Not true.

[Hunter McCall]

3 minutes ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

I like Willie Castro and feel he has been ideal for the team this year even though I wish he was not used so extensively.  He is similar to Gordon but with a plus of having an option remaining.  There is duplicity there and IMO one of them needs to be traded (preferably Gordon) at the deadline.

I don’t think the Twins should trade Castro and I’m not sure how valuable Gordon is. But yes, he’s been a great add.

[RpR]

46 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

This organization is not letting guys "earn" their way up. They continue to defer to veteran players with limited offensive upside, and this team needs to find multiple players with significant offensive upside. They just can't do that by continuing to roster these kinds of players.

If they were good enough to earn their way up, they would not be stuck in AAA.

Major League is not a proving ground for rookie wannabes, that is what AAA is for.

[Hunter McCall]

12 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Yeah, I'm used to having a utility player on the team, but for the foreseeable future, I want to see them giving as many MLB ABs as possible to these guys, Sure, some could use time in AAA, but others could audition right now. They have enough players with flexibility to make that happen even without a traditional utility player. It's not ideal, but the clock is ticking.

If Brian Dozier or Luis Arraez had been coming up as non-elite prospects right now, would we have ever known what they could have become? There just seems like too many mouths to feed at the moment and most aren't getting fed.

So the position player WAR leader is the one who gets the short end of the stick? I think that could be very detrimental to a team competing for a division title.

[nicksaviking]

Just now, RpR said:

If they were good enough to earn their way up, they would not be stuck in AAA.

Major League is not a proving ground for rookie wannabes, that is what AAA is for.

Throughout the entire history of this game, AAA players coming up and being ready-made studs has been the exception, not the rule. Most players need to come up and take their lumps before they show if they're going to be any good.