It's the Roster

[Mike Sixel]

There may be other things contributing, but the issue is the roster (and the FO that built it).

Backups (or worse) playing every day (nearly):

Kepler, Galllo, Taylor

Backups getting regular time:

Solano, Castro

Superstars being less than a shadow of themselves (possibly not on the FO, but no idea what Rocco can do about it while they are not on the IL)::

CC, Buxton

Mistake, or just a massive slump?

Vazquez

Young "great hitter" not hitting:

AK

Given that the entire OF is made up of DFA candidates and backups, and CC and Buxton stink....I have no idea how many speeches Rocco can give....Perhaps he could lead better, he can certainly make better pinch hitting decisions. Perhaps a new hitting coach would help some....but really, it is the roster.

This is 90% on the FO, and if anyone needs to make changes and possibly be fired, it is them. 100%.

[jkcarew]

Yep. The hitting roster was a hope, a wish…a ‘gamble’ if that’s more polite. It’s backfired. You have Correa underperforming…the rest (even Buxton really), not so much. The Keplers, Gallos, Buxton’s, etc…they are pretty much what they are offensively. And none of the young guys should be expected to carry the club right out of the gate. They could have been better than this...but it was pretty unlikely this was going to be a good offensive team.

 

 

[Nine of twelve]

I don't think it's the front office. And I don't think it's Baldelli. I think it's the players themselves, Correa and Buxton in particular. They are significantly underperforming relative to what almost everyone expected. And by almost everyone I'm referring to almost all knowledgeable baseball people. I think it's safe to say that if those two and Polanco were hitting like people expected we would have a nice cushion in the division. I don't know why this problem is happening but that's the problem.

[CRF]

I agree with your assessment that the real core problem lies with the FO and the roster they put together. However, I do think that a good/better manager would get a lot more out of this "bad" roster, than Rocco does. True, he's not swinging the bats, or making bonehead lack of fundamentals plays out in the field, or giving up important runs like some of our pen pitchers do...or you name it, but his decisions on who plays and who sits, his in game decision making and adjustments, or the constant lineup jockeying, or which RP he brings in...and the general lack of any urgency and intensity...is all on him. Obviously, the team can't fire everybody and dump all the players, but something sure has to be done. Has the FO made some good moves since they've been in charge? Sure they have, but they whiffed on probably the most important one...Baldelli. 

[LastOnePicked]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

This is 90% on the FO, and if anyone needs to make changes and possibly be fired, it is them. 100%.

Believe me, I am more than fine with a FO upheaval. But $140M payroll. Correa signed in the offseason. High-profile catcher added. Gold-glove caliber OFs added. Rocco was gifted a solid rotation staff and even blessed with a miserable division. C'mon - his team has underperformed even when healthy. Rocco is also a huge part of the problem here.

[jkcarew]

24 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

I don't think it's the front office. And I don't think it's Baldelli. I think it's the players themselves, Correa and Buxton in particular. They are significantly underperforming relative to what almost everyone expected. And by almost everyone I'm referring to almost all knowledgeable baseball people. I think it's safe to say that if those two and Polanco were hitting like people expected we would have a nice cushion in the division. I don't know why this problem is happening but that's the problem.

Buxton's career OPS+ is 107, for 2023 he's at 101. That's probably one hot week...it's not that big of a difference. Buxton's not a great hitter...never has been over long periods of time…like a season. He’s not going to carry a team over a season offensively for that reason, and a bunch more related to his health. If the FO thought he would, the plan was flawed from the get-go.

[Parfigliano]

45 minutes ago, jkcarew said:

Buxton's career OPS+ is 107, for 2023 he's at 101. That's probably one hot week...it's not that big of a difference. Buxton's not a great hitter...never has been over long periods of time…like a season. He’s not going to carry a team over a season offensively for that reason, and a bunch more related to his health. If the FO thought he would, the plan was flawed from the get-go.

Buxton is useless if he cant play D.  He is an offensive nothing.  A K waiting to happen.  His speed is nothing cause cant get on base.  

He is nothing.  He will be nothing as long as he is playing.  There is nothing to look forward to with him either as he will only get more unhealthy.  History shows this. He is a zero tool player.

[gman]

If I were going to shake things up, I would bat Correa 9th and Buxton 8th. The next day I would swap them around. I wouldn't bat Gallo or Kepler at all.

[jkcarew]

10 minutes ago, Parfigliano said:

Buxton is useless if he cant play D.  He is an offensive nothing.  A K waiting to happen.  His speed is nothing cause cant get on base.  

He is nothing.  He will be nothing as long as he is playing.  There is nothing to look forward to with him either as he will only get more unhealthy.  History shows this. He is a zero tool player.

I’m not that down on him. If the HR% comes back up even a little, he’s useful in the lineup. 

However, I agree, it’s hard to be very high on his longer-term value to the club right now.

[Greglw3]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

There may be other things contributing, but the issue is the roster (and the FO that built it).

Backups (or worse) playing every day (nearly):

Kepler, Galllo, Taylor

Backups getting regular time:

Solano, Castro

Superstars being less than a shadow of themselves (possibly not on the FO, but no idea what Rocco can do about it while they are not on the IL)::

CC, Buxton

Mistake, or just a massive slump?

Vazquez

Young "great hitter" not hitting:

AK

Given that the entire OF is made up of DFA candidates and backups, and CC and Buxton stink....I have no idea how many speeches Rocco can give....Perhaps he could lead better, he can certainly make better pinch hitting decisions. Perhaps a new hitting coach would help some....but really, it is the roster.

This is 90% on the FO, and if anyone needs to make changes and possibly be fired, it is them. 100%.

I totally agree. To go through the offseason and eschew so many good hitters and assemble what may be the worst hitting OF in BB history .192, .215, .198 represents gross incompetence. I would change the FO, the manager and several players right now. 

That Falvey has allowed this to drag on this long is a complete disgrace. .192, .215, .198. Maybe they should have been forced to look at their Strat-O-Matic cards to see just how lousy they were in comparison to a normal player.

 

[lukeduke1980]

With a team that didn't hit well last year, Arraez was swapped out for Gallo.  Not really surprising results.  

[Jocko87]

What 40 man roster was more talented in your Twins fandom? Be specific. 

[Mike Sixel]

4 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

What 40 man roster was more talented in your Twins fandom? Be specific. 

Hitters? Lots of them. Are you arguing this MLB roster is good at hitting?

[Jocko87]

16 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Hitters? Lots of them. Are you arguing this MLB roster is good at hitting?

Not remotely what I asked, it’s still up there.  Read it again. 

[Mike Sixel]

38 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

Not remotely what I asked, it’s still up there.  Read it again. 

This post is clearly about the MLB hitters. You want to talk something else? 

[Rosterman]

The reality was that it wasn't a bad roster, when you looked at it back in spring training. Vasquez is no superstar hitter and you hoped he would be a plus for the rotation, while Jeffers finds his place. Success.

In he infield, Gallo was fine at first, but his bat basically is below the level of Sano overall, ane he even cost more. Kirilloff came back and started strong. Just needs to play. Didn't expect Polanco to be out for so much of the season, and for Miranda to basically tank. But Julien, getting his major league legs, and Royce Lewis, are solid potential guys to build out future around.

I have no explanation for Correa.

Was there any plan to get Buxton back in the outfeidl, even at one of the corners? Now it is too late and Byron absically joins Kepler and Gallo as underperforming in key positions in the batting order. You can't have three positions like that - RF :F DH with such vast under performance. Add in Michael Taylor, who defends the outfield well as well as offers the occsional punch, bunt or stolen base. But he was basically supposed to be the 4th outfielder.

It looked a helluva a lot better coming out of spring training, folks. And the bench, sans Gordon, are actually the stars these days - Castro, Farmer and Solano playing more than they probably should.

 

Looked better on paper than it turned out, that's for sure. And the smoke and mirrors of leading a division when you are actually the 8-9-10th team out of 15 in the league has allowed the Twins to sell tickets. But the front office better make some hard choices if they don't want empty seats come August, and a deserted stadium come September.

 

The irony is that the St. Paul Saints aren't selling out, either...with dynamite offense, although overall suspect pitching. Lots of offense to pull to the majors, if a roster spot exists. Not much left in THAT pitching pipeline, sadly.

[Jocko87]

53 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

This post is clearly about the MLB hitters. You want to talk something else? 

Fair, same question. 

[GNess]

2 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

What 40 man roster was more talented in your Twins fandom? Be specific. 

The rosters that featured together the following:

1. Killebew, Oliva, Carew

2. Bostock, Hisle, Carew

3. Puckett, Gaetti, Hrbek

4. Morneau, Mauer, Hunter

The Twins historically could hit and score runs. (I only considered hitters because pitching isn't really the topic of this thread.)

[BiggestRoccoFan]

This is all on Rocco.

Those of you who don't think Rocco is a problem need to get your heads out of the clouds.

Does it look like it to any of you that the players want to play for this guy?( I don't blame the players for this)

They clearly don't and they have quit on him.

Did you notice that Atlanta and pretty much every other team we play uses the same line up most of the time?

Do you notice how our line up changes on a game by game basis?

You can complain all you want about the players but this game is all about rythem.

How the heck are any of the players going to get into any kind of grove if they are sitting every other game, Batting 9th one day and leading off the next, etc.

I don't want to hear anymore about how Rocco was manager of the year blah blah blah. 

The ball was juiced that year and any person except for Ron Davis could have won over 100 games with that line up.

This team has talent. They just need someone with a pulse to come in here and energize them.

I think it's as simple as that.

I always work better and harder for a boss that I like and guessing most of you all do as well.

 

 

[Jocko87]

9 minutes ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

This is all on Rocco.

Those of you who don't think Rocco is a problem need to get your heads out of the clouds.

Does it look like it to any of you that the players want to play for this guy?( I don't blame the players for this)

They clearly don't and they have quit on him.

Did you notice that Atlanta and pretty much every other team we play uses the same line up most of the time?

Do you notice how our line up changes on a game by game basis?

You can complain all you want about the players but this game is all about rythem.

How the heck are any of the players going to get into any kind of grove if they are sitting every other game, Batting 9th one day and leading off the next, etc.

I don't want to hear anymore about how Rocco was manager of the year blah blah blah. 

The ball was juiced that year and any person except for Ron Davis could have won over 100 games with that line up.

This team has talent. They just need someone with a pulse to come in here and energize them.

I think it's as simple as that.

I always work better and harder for a boss that I like and guessing most of you all do as well.

 

 

Strong statement with that user name, I like it.  I don't think the technical aspects are all on him, but I believe those people work for him so he owns it.  As we don't really know any reporting structure or assignment of duties all we can go on is that Rocco owns on field product. 

The last line is savagely honest, most people don't even realize they do that. 

[BiggestRoccoFan]

4 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

Strong statement with that user name, I like it.  I don't think the technical aspects are all on him, but I believe those people work for him so he owns it.  As we don't really know any reporting structure or assignment of duties all we can go on is that Rocco owns on field product. 

The last line is savagely honest, most people don't even realize they do that. 

Energy is so important man and Rocco does not have or bring any!

[Jocko87]

25 minutes ago, GNess said:

The rosters that featured together the following:

1. Killebew, Oliva, Carew

2. Bostock, Hisle, Carew

3. Puckett, Gaetti, Hrbek

4. Morneau, Mauer, Hunter

The Twins historically could hit and score runs. (I only considered hitters because pitching isn't really the topic of this thread.)

Appreciate the detailed answer.  I would probably agree that on a top three basis there are a few years where the top three are better but I was looking at the roster as a whole.  That 69 team also with Reese, Cardenas and Tovar was pretty beastly, but well before my personal time.  I would bet the current volume of talent on this years team look very good in comparison to most years though. 

Just among hitters on the 40 man roster, there are 9 guys who are 1st or 2nd round picks including 2 #1 overall.  Every single one, save maybe Jeffers if I'm generous, is performing well under expectations and career norms.  And not just slightly poor, objectively horrible.  Many reasons for sure, but I'm not sure how we can see the roster construction being the reason for poor performance.  The FO might have blame but its not about who is here, other than Kepler, we all agree on that.

[gunnarthor]

56 minutes ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

This is all on Rocco.

Those of you who don't think Rocco is a problem need to get your heads out of the clouds.

Does it look like it to any of you that the players want to play for this guy?( I don't blame the players for this)

They clearly don't and they have quit on him.

Did you notice that Atlanta and pretty much every other team we play uses the same line up most of the time?

Do you notice how our line up changes on a game by game basis?

You can complain all you want about the players but this game is all about rythem.

How the heck are any of the players going to get into any kind of grove if they are sitting every other game, Batting 9th one day and leading off the next, etc.

I don't want to hear anymore about how Rocco was manager of the year blah blah blah. 

The ball was juiced that year and any person except for Ron Davis could have won over 100 games with that line up.

This team has talent. They just need someone with a pulse to come in here and energize them.

I think it's as simple as that.

I always work better and harder for a boss that I like and guessing most of you all do as well.

 

 

I think you're somewhat right. Gardy used to be a big believer in static batting orders - especially for the key spots. That's why he would plug Mark Redmond into the 3 spot in 06 when Mauer rested. But static is also a bit misleading. Most teams will only use the same batting order (1-9) maybe a dozen times in a good year. What's more important - and the point I think you're getting at - is having an idea of who your leadoff hitter is, your #3 hitter, your #4 hitter, etc. And that's where the Twins are pretty extreme. For instance, in 81 games this year, we've had 10 different lead off hitters and none has lead off more than 18 times. The Braves have used Acuna to lead off in every game this year. And if you look at the best offenses in baseball, most of them have had a set hitter for the key spots. If you look at Atlanta, TB, Texas and the Angels and compare their lineups, you see that they have a lot more players "set" to hit in specific spots, often in over half their games. And they don't have the same fall day today - guys don't hit second one day and eighth the next.

But there was also a lot of resistance to the idea that hitters do better in certain spots in the order or that they need consistency, creatures of habit, etc. My guess is that this FO doesn't think much of the idea that lineups affect players, day-to-day. Optimizing the lineups is a way to steal a win from the margins, so that's what they are trying to do.

And, of course, injuries can completely destroy any plans.

[Nine of twelve]

Regarding batting order, there are many things that vary from game to game, not the least of which is the opposing starting pitcher. Is he right handed or left? Do any players have a history of success or failure against him? Which players are hot and which are not? Who needs a rest? Who needs to get some AB's? Does the stadium favor any particular players? Does the weather favor any particular players? And I'm sure there are more factors that I'm leaving out. A manager's goal is to get the most out of his players and in order to do that the batting order should change from game to game.

[TwinsDr2021]

And here is your second place MN Twins,

Am I surprised how bat the hitting is, yes, am I surprised that it isn't good, nope.

At the beginning of the year it was pointed out how many holes this team had. People tried to explain that Vazquez was a good hitter, and he is not, sure he has had some decent years but he just isn't. We knew what to expect from Gallo, and have gotten it. The opening day line had Gordon at 2B, not a good hitter. Taylor in CF, not a good hitter, Kepler in RF not a good hitter, Larnach in LF unproven player with a limited career of not being very good, Miranda at 3B second year player who had a decent first year, Correa and Buxton.

The bench was decent if they weren't needed on a daily basis. Which of course they have been because the starters have been terrible.

That is why I don't understand people begging for Miranda and Larnach back, they are part of the problem not part of the answer this year. I get Wallner he was never really given a chance.

[ewen21]

12 hours ago, jkcarew said:

Buxton's career OPS+ is 107, for 2023 he's at 101. That's probably one hot week...it's not that big of a difference. Buxton's not a great hitter...never has been over long periods of time…like a season. He’s not going to carry a team over a season offensively for that reason, and a bunch more related to his health. If the FO thought he would, the plan was flawed from the get-go.

You are 100% correct.  Buxton is not underperforming all that much as far as I can see.  It is normal for him to go into prolonged slumps like the one we are seeing right now.  This is his ugly side and it rears its ugly head from time to time and you hope he finds a way out.  The danger is this time he seems on the precipice of completely losing it.  This persistent pattern makes me start questioning his commitment to the craft of hitting.  He certainly isn't hitting during times he is on the IL so this means he has long stretches during the season where he does not work on hitting.  He doesn't like taking pregame BP and didn't for over two years.  He admitted this saying he does indoor hitting instead.  Just how much of that he does is a mystery.  I sincerely doubt he picks up a bat during the winter.  We all know that he loves to run and he is a great athlete, but how much hitting does he do during the winter I wonder.  Just a couple of days ago when the team swung into Atlanta he said he barely watched baseball as a kid.  Does he even like baseball I wonder,.

He was content to sit on the sidelines during spring training with the Twins employing an NBA "load management" style approach,  He didn't get in real live hitting against opponents during the spring and he seemed to agree that it was "best for the team" that he be managed this way.  And yet HE was cleared to run on November 18th after the minor arthroscopic surgery he got:

Quote

"I got cleared (Friday) to run. Running is my favorite thing to do. So for me to get cleared to run, I'm on Cloud Nine," Buxton said.

How did he go from this on November 18th to playing in just a couple of games in spring training several months later?  How much of him not playing in games during ST was him not even trying to convince the Twins he was fine to play?  How is it this world class athlete get relegated to DH duties even though he is making headfirst slides, stealing bases and running the bases hard through it all?  This makes zero sense.  We have a right to question what is going on at this point because we have been fed a bill of goods by the Twins and the media.  For example, this article below at the very beginning of the season highlighted his speed and how good he looked running the bases:

https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-twins-second-consecutive-shutout-kansas-city-royals-sonny-gray-byron-buxton/600263811/

I have read and heard a great many people effusively praise Buxton and, quite frankly, I do not want to hear it anymore. We can talk about his athleticism from here to eternity, but iIn reality, he has never driven in more than 51 runs, never scored 70 runs, has a career OBP of .300, a career BA of .240, has played in more than 92 games only once, etc....etc...etc....etc....

I do not want to hear about his tools.  I do not what to hear about "...when healthy...."

We can't even fall back on his defense anymore..  He is 29 and should be in his professional prime and he is doing this right now  Not good enough!

 

 

 

 

[ewen21]

8 hours ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

This is all on Rocco.

With this statement you absolve the players of blame.  I wish Rocco was not our manager, but if you think the major issues this team now has are erased with one move you are fooling yourself.   

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, Nine of twelve said:

Regarding batting order, there are many things that vary from game to game, not the least of which is the opposing starting pitcher. Is he right handed or left? Do any players have a history of success or failure against him? Which players are hot and which are not? Who needs a rest? Who needs to get some AB's? Does the stadium favor any particular players? Does the weather favor any particular players? And I'm sure there are more factors that I'm leaving out. A manager's goal is to get the most out of his players and in order to do that the batting order should change from game to game.

I disagree with most every word.

Since it's tough to find 9 really good position players, I don't mind an actual platoon at one spot, provided both players can actually hit. More than one is tough, but maybe two, or at catcher. 13 man pitching staffs don't allow for more. Beyond that, play your best players. Every day.

"Who needs a rest?" Good lord. Stop this nonsense.

"Who needs some ABs?" Why? Why would you intentionally play lesser players, just in case you need them later on? That's...not very well thought out. Play them if/when needed. 

Play someone based on 7 or 10 ABs against a given pitcher over someone else and his 7 or 10 AB? Nonsense. Play the best players. Same for "stadium." AFAIK, it's 60 ft 6 inches from the rubber to home in every MLB stadium. 

Once again: Unless hurt, Play your best players. Every day, or at least almost every day. There is NO REASON most players can't be expected to give you 156 games. 

 

 

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I disagree with most every word.

I would LOVE an actual platoon at one spot, provided both players can actually hit. More than that is tough, but maybe two, or at catcher. 13 man pitching staffs don't allow for more. Beyond that, play your best players. Every day.

"Who needs a rest?" Good lord. Stop this nonsense.

"Who needs some ABs?" Why? Why would you intentionally play lesser players, just in case you need them later on? That's...not very well thought out. Play them if/when needed. 

Play someone based on 7 or 10 ABs against a given pitcher over someone else and his 7 or 10 AB? Nonsense. Play the best players. Same for "stadium." ASAIK, it's 60 ft 6 inches from the rubber to home in every MLB stadium. 

Once again: Unless hurt, Play your best players. Every day, or at least almost every day. There is NO REASON most players can't be expected to good you 156 games. 

 

 

I agree with the general idea of playing your best guys everyday. And I know we agree that this team is lacking truly impactful bats. Where I think this ties into the idea of the OP, though, is the lack of talent. It's easy to set Atlanta's lineup everyday and just stick with it. They have 10 guys (2 catchers) that are clearly everyday players right now, and 3 guys who are clearly bench guys (they even carry a 3rd catcher). The Twins have a whole bunch of bench players. 

There's very little difference in the 13 guys the Twins continue to roster as position players, in my view. I do wish they'd just put Julien, Lewis, and Kirilloff in the top 3 spots (to see what they can do), and never take them out, for the next 3 weeks at least, but otherwise it feels like splitting hairs to call anyone their "best players" right now. They "have to" play Correa everyday, and they do. Buxton is a weird case, and I'd prefer they IL him for the rest of the year so they don't feel obligated to play him. But who else on this team do we consider clearly "best players?"

And to tie this into the OP again, I think this is the FO's plan. I think they view 7, 8, or 9 position player spots the same way they view the pen. Not worth the investment as they can mix and match pieces to find advantages that allow them to thrive. They view the margins as way bigger than I think they should. Platooning, pen matchups, defensive versatility, etc. are ways teams can "win on the margins." This FO has decided to dive into those margins and build a team around them.

You may view the roster differently, but I just see a bunch partial players they think they can mix and match into complete players. There aren't any "best players" on this team right now, if you ask me. It's why I'd like to see them dive into the youth movement, and see if they can actually find some "best players."

[Major League Ready]

9 hours ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

Energy is so important man and Rocco does not have or bring any!

Francona is about as stoic as they come.