Twins acquire Kyle Farmer

[nicksaviking]

If any team in the league thought this guy was a starting SS, the Reds would have gotten more than the guy that made us all collectively scratch our heads when he was Rule V protected. 
 

 

[Rik19753]

1 hour ago, SwainZag said:

I'm not going to judge it yet.  He's 32 and the Twins could use someone with a decent glove to backup SS who isn't a complete hole in the lineup.  He's right handed as well if they were planning a Miranda/Arraez/Farmer 1B/3B platoon type thing. 

I like this idea. Farmer is great against lefties, with a .837 career OPS vs. a .650 OPS against righties. If they intend on using Farmer as the utility guy against lefties and Nick Gordon against righties, I like it.

 

On the other hand, if they plan on Farmer being the Opening Day SS, I hate the move. If they aren't going to spend their money on SS, where else are they going to spend their money? I have a very hard time thinking they have a shot at signing the likes of deGrom, Verlander or Rodon.

 

Unfortunately, I think the latter is a much bigger possibility than the former. I just have a hard time thinking that the FO would pay $6MM for a utility player when they are so obsessed with their cap space. I don't think they have completely ruled out signing a top SS, but I think this is one of the moves that we have seen time and time again in recent years where they prepare their fallback option beforehand so that they have a backup plan for whenever their feeble attempt at signing a top free agent inevitably fails.

[Linus]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

The Twins have about $60m in open payroll for 2023. If they can’t find a good shortstop with that money, the entire lot of them should be fired. 

Well stay tuned.  Hard to see them spending that kind of money on a utility guy. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

17 minutes ago, Linus said:

Well stay tuned.  Hard to see them spending that kind of money on a utility guy. 

One of their first acquisitions was spending more money than this on Marwin Gonzalez. 

[Linus]

1 minute ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

One of their first acquisitions was spending more money than this on Marwin Gonzalez. 

It might be insurance against injury - I thought they might keep Urshela for that reason. But if you think there is no chance that this is the stopgap to Lewis then we just disagree. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

18 minutes ago, Linus said:

It might be insurance against injury - I thought they might keep Urshela for that reason. But if you think there is no chance that this is the stopgap to Lewis then we just disagree. 

If that’s their plan, they should be fired. It’s a nonsensical plan. After 2023 the Twins lose Mahle, Gray, and Maeda. They gave up a ton of capital to make a run and blowing it by running out a lackluster shortstop when you have massive payroll flexibility is, in a word, idiotic. They HAVE to be smarter than that and I think they are. 

[Yoke]

If this is adding a guy to back up 2 or 3 positions in the infield, it’s a good trade and I like it.

 

If it’s a trade for a guy to start somewhere all season…oofda.

 

(I think it’s option 1)

[Danchat]

Feels more like a replacement to Adrianza's bench spot than Correa's. Giving up a middling reliever prospect for a legitimate backup MLB SS is 100% A-OK to me, especially now that Palacios is out of the organization.

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

One of their first acquisitions was spending more money than this on Marwin Gonzalez. 

Yeah, 2x as much.

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

They HAVE to be smarter than that and I think they are. 

At least that is the hope.

[weitz41]

The Reds probably know the Twins farm system better than anyone by now. 3 different trades in less then a year. The Gio trade makes a little more sense after this move.

3rd, short and catcher...If he can throw 45 mph filth, he could be an expensive Willians Astudillo.?

If he's our starting SS it's going to be a disappointing offseason. If he's a bench player I like it.

 

[Irishman]

Not impressed with those trades lately.   Sigh!   Very disappointed with the FO.

[goulik]

First I see the FO ripped for trading Urshela for a Minor League lottery ticket “how does this help the MLB team?” Then I see them get an MLB player while freeing up a roster spot and we get “this FO has to go!”. 

Yeesh!! It’s November! How do you sign Rodon, Correa, and/or Contreras? Have enough money. We will easily be able to judge this FO in March when we see whether or not they spend all this capital they have kept free. 

Farmer is the perfect Super Utility player a playoff team needs. I see this as an insurance/depth move and I like it in tandem with the Urshela trade. It sets the plate well for eventually signing Correa or another big name SS while also still having money for Rodon.

Now let’s trade Pagan and Kepler, resign Fulmer, and then put an exclamation point on it with Contreras! The plan is ALL coming together!

[baul0010]

14 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

This is insurance for the infield, as the Twins have no functioning shortstop and a big question mark at third base. I don’t think this signifies anything. 

I think the move was solid.  I think I would have tried keeping Urshela as well.  Like you said, between health and defence issues, having players being able to play all infield positions could have been nice.  If you had Farmar and Urshela in there lineup they aren't a black hole offensively like Simmons was.

[FlyingFinn]

17 hours ago, whosafraidofluigirussolo said:

The Twins haven't seemed to want to play Polanco, Gordon or Urshela at SS (Gordon a little more than the others, in keeping with the utility role he's moved into.)

If the Twins would sign Nimmo to play RF (and backup in CF) like I want, I could see Kepler and Gordon being traded for pitching. I believe Farmer also plays LF and could play there, especially against LH's. Farmer at SS until Lewis returns, and sign Abreu and Rodon.

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, FlyingFinn said:

If the Twins would sign Nimmo to play RF (and backup in CF) like I want, I could see Kepler and Gordon being traded for pitching. I believe Farmer also plays LF and could play there, especially against LH's. Farmer at SS until Lewis returns, and sign Abreu and Rodon.

I know I'm broken-record-ing it here, but I just hate the idea of waiting for Lewis or Lee. We don't know for certain when either will be able to take over, if they are able to take over. And while I think Miranda will get time at 3rd, I'm not certain he's a starting 3rd baseman. If he is, we'd better have one heckuva SS out there, and not just a placeholder for something that we have no real certainty on both in when or if.

[Major League Ready]

37 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

I know I'm broken-record-ing it here, but I just hate the idea of waiting for Lewis or Lee. We don't know for certain when either will be able to take over, if they are able to take over. And while I think Miranda will get time at 3rd, I'm not certain he's a starting 3rd baseman. If he is, we'd better have one heckuva SS out there, and not just a placeholder for something that we have no real certainty on both in when or if.

I hate the idea of spending $35M on a free agent when your top prospect and your second best prospect plays the same position., especially when it's SS because moving a player to 3B diminishes his value.  I might sound like a broken record too but I will take Lewis or Lee at SS and spend the $35m on pitching.   

The answer is not they can afford a top pitcher and Correa because they also need a catcher and BP help and they might also need 1B.  It just does not work to put almost half your payroll into two players.  Even the Yankees who have literally double the revenue of the twins appear to be opting to wait on their SS prospect.  Obviously, that could change but it sure looks like they are not in on any of the top SSs.

[Mike Sixel]

8 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

I hate the idea of spending $35M on a free agent when your top prospect and your second best prospect plays the same position., especially when it's SS because moving a player to 3B diminishes his value.  I might sound like a broken record too but I will take Lewis or Lee at SS and spend the $35m on pitching.   

The answer is not they can afford a top pitcher and Correa because they also need a catcher and BP help and they might also need 1B.  It just does not work to put almost half your payroll into two players.  Even the Yankees who have literally double the revenue of the twins appear to be opting to wait on their SS prospect.  Obviously, that could change but it sure looks like they are not in on any of the top SSs.

They aren't winning the division with Farmer at short and Miranda at third, with Buxton playing sixty games. Farmer is a backup. If Lee and Lewis hit, they have plenty of value at third or left field or second base in a year. 

[Squirrel]

16 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They aren't winning the division with Farmer at short and Miranda at third, with Buxton playing sixty games. Farmer is a backup. If Lee and Lewis hit, they have plenty of value at third or left field or second base in a year. 

Exactly. And going back to no shift is not the time to see if Lewis and/or Lee can really play SS at the major league level. If they hit they will both have a spot on and be valuable to the team even if not at SS. If Farmer starts the year as our SS, that’s a big fail, imo. And counting on players who have yet to prove themselves is not a blueprint for a championship team. At some point a team does have to spend to win it all, and they have the room to do it right now

[Major League Ready]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

They aren't winning the division with Farmer at short and Miranda at third, with Buxton playing sixty games. Farmer is a backup. If Lee and Lewis hit, they have plenty of value at third or left field or second base in a year. 

We just don't agree.  Other teams in similar revenue positions never spend this high a percentage on one player.  Do you think all of those executives are incompetent?  The one thing we can be absolutely certain about is they have to produce significantly greater value per dollar spent when compared to top revenue teams.  That's not conceptual, it's an absolute certainty.  High revenue team's operate on completely different principals because they can sign 3 or 4 elite free agents and have the twins budget left over for 22 instead of 26 players.  They don't need value.  They can spend the incremental without the need to get great value.   Lots of people loathe the need to get value and that's the disconnect with the front office.  Every FO of modest revenue teams understands that value is the driving force of bulding a successful team and many fans just accept this premise.  Tell me how the Twins can spend the same amount per WAR as a team with 50 or 100% more revenue.   Obviously, it's not possible.

BTW ... If they don't win the division it will be because they did not draft and trade as well as Cleveland or Chicago.  Exactly how many big names free agents does Cleveland have.  I think fans are focus on the wrong elements of building in a winner.

[Squirrel]

5 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

We just don't agree.  Other teams in similar revenue positions never spend this high a percentage on one player.  Do you think all of those executives are incompetent?  The one thing we can be absolutely certain about is they have to produce significantly greater value per dollar spent when compared to top revenue teams.  That's not conceptual, it's an absolute certainty.  High revenue team's operate on completely different principals because they can sign 3 or 4 elite free agents and have the twins budget left over for 22 instead of 26 players.  They don't need value.  They can spend the incremental without the need to get great value.   Lots of people loathe the need to get value and that's the disconnect with the front office.  They understand that they value is the driving force of bulding a successful team and many fans just accept this premise.  Tell me how the Twins can spend the same amount per WAR as a team with 50 or 100% more revenue.   Obviously, it's not possible.

Talk about disconnect. No one has said to spend the same as other teams and fill the roster with big ticket players in every position. But the Twins can afford to get a Correa and/or Rodon. They have the flexibility. To never go out and get that player is a way to never win except by chance. They can’t count on unproven players year after year and expect to do anything but lose their fans. That’s not good business, either

[Mike Sixel]

20 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

We just don't agree.  Other teams in similar revenue positions never spend this high a percentage on one player.  Do you think all of those executives are incompetent?  The one thing we can be absolutely certain about is they have to produce significantly greater value per dollar spent when compared to top revenue teams.  That's not conceptual, it's an absolute certainty.  High revenue team's operate on completely different principals because they can sign 3 or 4 elite free agents and have the twins budget left over for 22 instead of 26 players.  They don't need value.  They can spend the incremental without the need to get great value.   Lots of people loathe the need to get value and that's the disconnect with the front office.  They understand that they value is the driving force of bulding a successful team and many fans just accept this premise.  Tell me how the Twins can spend the same amount per WAR as a team with 50 or 100% more revenue.   Obviously, it's not possible.

BTW ... If they don't win the division it will be because they did not draft and trade as well as Cleveland or Chicago.  Exactly how many big names free agents does Cleveland have.  I think fans are focus on the wrong elements of building in a winner.

Where did I say the only option was to sign one of the big four? Or to sign them and a pitcher?

Cleveland isn't winning anymore than the TWins are.....

I think many teams are incompetent, actually. Look at Cincy, Pitts, CO. Detroit and KC. That's five w/o me even thinking about it. NO ONE in this thread is arguing against building mainly from inside at all. NO ONE. And, please, don't preach to me like I'm stupid. It's condescending at best. 

[Mike Sixel]

As for the actual moves yesterday, if he's a backup, I like this more and more. They need a backup SS. He is one. He also has two years of control left, and costs less. And, IMO, they added a better minor leaguer than they traded, and he doesn't have to be on the 40 man. So, all in all, the two trades make sense.

[Parfigliano]

19 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

One of their first acquisitions was spending more money than this on Marwin Gonzalez. 

That was not a great day 

[USAFChief]

Why are we trading for a "backup"?

 

I get less and less impressed by this front office weekly.

[Major League Ready]

58 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

Talk about disconnect. No one has said to spend the same as other teams and fill the roster with big ticket players in every position. But the Twins can afford to get a Correa and/or Rodon. They have the flexibility. To never go out and get that player is a way to never win except by chance. They can’t count on unproven players year after year and expect to do anything but lose their fans. That’s not good business, either

I agree they have enough money to sign him.  That's not debatable.  What's in question is the relative merit of a plan to spend 25% of the budget on one player.  So, don't tell me they can afford it.  Give me examples of teams that have spent 25% on one player and won.  The fact is that teams just don't do this.  Do you really think you understand this better than all the executives who refrain from this practice.   The only way this would be feasible is if the team had a bunch of internally developed front line pitching which is not the case with us.

Cleveland had a $70M payroll last year.  They could easily afford a top free agent.  Do you think they sign one.  I bet a lot of their fans said they were doomed when they traded Lindor.

Twins fans said we were sunk when we let Berrios go.  What did he do last year?

Texas could afford to sign to elite free agents.  Did they win their division.

The Angels signed a superstar free agent while already having arguably the best player of this generation.  How many division titles did that get them?

It takes 26 players to be successful and you are obsessing over one player.  I will take Lewis at 720K and Rodon at $27M and $7M on a BP arm over Correa any day.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

11 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

I agree they have enough money to sign him.  That's not debatable.  What's in question is the relative merit of a plan to spend 25% of the budget on one player.  So, don't tell me they can afford it.  Give me examples of teams that have spent 25% on one player and won.  The fact is that teams just don't do this.  Do you really think you understand this better than all the executives who refrain from this practice.   The only way this would be feasible is if the team had a bunch of internally developed front line pitching which is not the case with us.

In 2019 the Nationals had not only one but two players making over $35m.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Why are we trading for a "backup"?

 

I get less and less impressed by this front office weekly.

They gave up almost nothing....and they need one. Why not?

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

I agree they have enough money to sign him.  That's not debatable.  What's in question is the relative merit of a plan to spend 25% of the budget on one player.  So, don't tell me they can afford it.  Give me examples of teams that have spent 25% on one player and won.  The fact is that teams just don't do this.  Do you really think you understand this better than all the executives who refrain from this practice.   The only way this would be feasible is if the team had a bunch of internally developed front line pitching which is not the case with us.

Cleveland had a $70M payroll last year.  They could easily afford a top free agent.  Do you think they sign one.  I bet a lot of their fans said they were doomed when they traded Lindor.

Twins fans said we were sunk when we let Berrios go.  What did he do last year?

Texas could afford to sign to elite free agents.  Did they win their division.

The Angels signed a superstar free agent while already having arguably the best player of this generation.  How many division titles did that get them?

It takes 26 players to be successful and you are obsessing over one player.  I will take Lewis at 720K and Rodon at $27M and $7M on a BP arm over Correa any day.

 

At most, half a year of Lewis, the last year grey and Mahle and Maeda are under contract? I think that's right. If Lewis can be healthy for the first time in three years. That seems like a waste of those pitchers. 

[stringer bell]

I believe Farmer automatically becomes the team's best defender at both short and third. Of the 39 guys on the roster, he is now the starting shortstop. I can see a scenario where he starts against left handed pitching all of the time even if a premier shortstop is added.

I don't want to see Farmer as the Twins' Opening Day shortstop and I fear this is the path they are on.