Who gets fired for this?

[cHawk]

Gen chat about this subject because IDK WTF what else it’s supposed to be.

[Mike Sixel]

This fascination with someone to blame is an interesting phenomena ..... there may or may not be someone to blame, but this idea that firing a person or two will fix things is really interesting. They won the division two years in a row....maybe that tells us something too....maybe this year is just a bad year, where everything goes wrong and unlucky and there is no fault or reason other than stuff happens. Most things in life don't have A cause, or meaning. They just are. Our human need for their to be a reason for things happening is really interesting to me.

[Otto von Ballpark]

[TheLeviathan]

Nobody to "fire" but plenty of players should be in different uniforms by the end of the year.  Things started poorly, injuries have managed to continue to get worse, and we're too far behind.

Time to sell and prep for next year.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The Twins were competitive in 2015 and 2017, yet somehow between them in 2016 they lost 100 games due to some shaky assumptions. 

I’d clean up the assumptions, make a strategic trade or two at the deadline, look at some new off-field personnel, and retool for 2022. Get pitching. 

[In My La Z boy]

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

This fascination with someone to blame is an interesting phenomena ..... there may or may not be someone to blame, but this idea that firing a person or two will fix things is really interesting. They won the division two years in a row....maybe that tells us something too....maybe this year is just a bad year, where everything goes wrong and unlucky and there is no fault or reason other than stuff happens. Most things in life don't have A cause, or meaning. They just are. Our human need for their to be a reason for things happening is really interesting to me.

I like this a lot. This is the "Faith" conundrum in a nutshell. Our human need for reason. People, let alone organizations can get so sidetracked in life by the need for understanding. Mysteries are a part of the deal in life, and there is much that has no explanation. It just is. Things just are. The need for reason causes a lot of undue hardship in many ways. I loved this post, Thanks!

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, In My La Z boy said:

I like this a lot. This is the "Faith" conundrum in a nutshell. Our human need for reason. People, let alone organizations can get so sidetracked in life by the need for understanding. Mysteries are a part of the deal in life, and there is much that has no explanation. It just is. Things just are. The need for reason causes a lot of undue hardship in many ways. I loved this post, Thanks!

thanks, and now I can't un-see my typo......but thanks!

[Craig Arko]

Fire me. I can take it.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Craig Arko said:

Fire me. I can take it.

nope. You have to work forever!

[Craig Arko]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

nope. You have to work forever!

That’s evil, man.

[ashbury]

22 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

thanks, and now I can't un-see my typo

Which one?

[Mike Sixel]

5 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

That’s evil, man.

True. I suggest you retire soon, and just do your volunteer work. Though make sure you have enough friends first....

[Craig Arko]

10 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

True. I suggest you retire soon, and just do your volunteer work. Though make sure you have enough friends first....

Two more years.

[Platoon]

Since the topic is 2021 not 2019 or 2020 I put down the players and the FO. I do wish there had been an "injuries" box to check. 
 

The players performances are fairly obvious. Even the uninjured have performed subpar, and many of the injured haven’t been exactly stellar before they got hurt. 
 

There seems no doubt the FO has not been developing high caliber young pitching talent, at least not any that has played in a Twins uniform. 
 

I don’t think Rocco is fault free, but some of problems have filtered down by the FO attempts at using reclamation projects for the bullpen of what was supposed to be a legitimate WS contender. That said he hasn’t given a clinic on managerial game time decision making. 
 

Baseball remains a pitching, defense dominated game. Yes you can beat the crap out of some pitchers, on some days. But being a legitimate threat against good teams, with good pitching is not done by outhitting them. 

[cHawk]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

Nobody to "fire" but plenty of players should be in different uniforms by the end of the year.  Things started poorly, injuries have managed to continue to get worse, and we're too far behind.

Time to sell and prep for next year.

Next year might be a developmental year, rather than an all-in year. We’ll need to develop some prospects in to quality pitchers, as well as continue to develop the likes of Kirilloff, Larnach, Jeffers, and possibly Arraez.

[Vanimal46]

The players technically win the poll by quantity. We’ll see many new faces in the bullpen, 2 or 3 new starting pitchers, and a new SS. This offseason maybe we’ll see another player or two on the move. We’re overdue to clear out the gluttony of corner OF/1B on roster. 
 

We could move on from the hitting coach. Is that satisfactory for fans? It doesn’t do much for me personally. 
 

Other than that, Falvey and Baldelli aren’t going anywhere. 

[jkcarew]

I expect some changes as the FO evaluates things and begins transitioning some roster positions to the next/emerging wave. But that would have been in play even if things were going well in 2021. Maybe that accelerates a bit.

I’ve been critical of Rocco and to a lesser extent the FO in terms of pitching development/acquisition (lack thereof)...but one year of poor results does not a trend make. From the dugout on up management is young and relatively inexperienced. They’re not yet nearly as brilliant as 2019 made them look. But at the same time, they’re probably not nearly as incompetent as 2021 has made them look. Let’s see where they go from here.

[Nine of twelve]

6 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

This fascination with someone to blame is an interesting phenomena ..... there may or may not be someone to blame, but this idea that firing a person or two will fix things is really interesting. They won the division two years in a row....maybe that tells us something too....maybe this year is just a bad year, where everything goes wrong and unlucky and there is no fault or reason other than stuff happens. Most things in life don't have A cause, or meaning. They just are. Our human need for their to be a reason for things happening is really interesting to me.

Yep. It's my opinion that this is simply one of those outlier years. Looking for a silver lining, I'll say that this is a good thing to happen in the long term. Time to jettison the veterans via trade or non-tender and get the young prospects involved. And I think Rocco is still going to be good in the long term as well.

[KirbyDome89]

3 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

The Twins were competitive in 2015 and 2017, yet somehow between them in 2016 they lost 100 games due to some shaky assumptions. 

I’d clean up the assumptions, make a strategic trade or two at the deadline, look at some new off-field personnel, and retool for 2022. Get pitching. 

That '16 season was pretty monumental as far as firings go in Twins Territory. 

I agree with posters above that removing Rocco or any other coaches won't do much in the way of improving the on field product. I do hope the FO decides to rethink their approach to the pitching staff in year 6. 

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, cHawk said:

Next year might be a developmental year, rather than an all-in year. We’ll need to develop some prospects in to quality pitchers, as well as continue to develop the likes of Kirilloff, Larnach, Jeffers, and possibly Arraez.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply all-in, just that this year was no longer worth caring about as far as outcomes.

[AceWrigley]

Doesn't someone need to be held accountable for the lackadaisical play?  The errors? The mental breakdowns? The terrible at bats? The inability to manufacture runs? On and on.

[Mike Sixel]

33 minutes ago, AceWrigley said:

Doesn't someone need to be held accountable for the lackadaisical play?  The errors? The mental breakdowns? The terrible at bats? The inability to manufacture runs? On and on.

To what end? 

[flpmagikat]

26 minutes ago, AceWrigley said:

Doesn't someone need to be held accountable for the lackadaisical play?  The errors? The mental breakdowns? The terrible at bats? The inability to manufacture runs? On and on.

Yes, I think so, though I wouldn't know who. Though I find the sentiment that we can't fault anyone, things just happen, to be fairly strange as well.  While I agree that as individuals it is foolish and arrogant to believe we can discern not only cause and effect, but motive and intent in all cases, I would be appalled if the general vibe of the Twins decision makers were, "just not our year", with no corrective actions taken. Maybe the point is that we don't really know is fair, but the people running that multimillion(billion?) dollar operation supported in part by tax money, had better have some real answers/solutions.

 

Fwiw I voted for the players.

[jimbo92107]

9 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

nope. You have to work forever!

https://images.app.goo.gl/5wqix318erB65D6o8

[jimbo92107]

 

 

[beckmt]

I am still in the fire Rocco camp as you can't fire the players.  (all of them).  

As far as pitching, we don't know yet as it takes a fair number of years before changes show up, will be much more concerned if we can't develop pitching two years from now.  We might as well trade, let a fair number of veteran pitchers go to see what the kids do.

We still have the issue I have noted elsewhere with Berrios and buxton.  You either have to extend them or trade them this midseason to get maximum value and I will not give the front office a pass if they do neither.  That is a Pohlad decision as it involves money, but both should be able to bring top 100 prospects (in Buxton's case maybe multiple) in return.  Pineda is another player you have to make a decision with (I am more with the resigning than trading).  A lot of these factors all play together.  

[wsnydes]

12 hours ago, Craig Arko said:

Fire me. I can take it.

You can't get through this that easily!  You...you must suffer along with the rest of us!

[Craig Arko]

56 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

You can't get through this that easily!  You...you must suffer along with the rest of us!

Call me Duhkha.

[Reptevia]

This team is MUCH less than the sum of it’s parts. That usually means management. 

[Nine of twelve]

No one should be fired if the only reason for doing so is the idea that someone has to be fired. If anyone has consistently failed to perform up to reasonable expectations, then yes. And keep in mind that it's easy to fire someone. It is far more difficult and far more important to find someone significantly better to take the role of the person who was let go. And that should be done before the firing takes place.