Article: CIN 15, MIN 9: It Got Even Worse

[twinsnorth49]

It's embarrassing to both Hughes and the Twins that they keep trotting him out there.

 

It's over fellas, deal with it.

[Taildragger8791]

Agree with comment above...there are no baseball reasons why Phil Hughes has gotten a start for thus team.

Also agree that Morneau--one of my favorite Twins ever--was rather...bland and monotone in the booth.

And while I'm at it...would it be possible for Mauer to drive in a run on occasion? Perhaps not start every AB with runners on base by looking at two strikes?

Things get a whole lot easier when you accept that Mauer is a one trick pony on offense (avoiding outs at all costs). He’s very good at it, and I’d love to get more than that out of a 6’5” 225 lb first basemen. But I’ve accepted that he’s mostly a table setter and facilitator and we simply need to actual run producers behind him to score consistently. You’ll only set yourself up for trouble if you need more than 70 RBI or 8 HR out of him.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

There are zero baseball reasons why Hughes remains on the MLB roster. Get rid of him please.

It has been common wisdom the last couple years (yes that's how long we've been having this Hughes discussion) that if the Twins let him go, some team would pick him up and pay the minimum salary and the Twins would be on the hook for the rest.

 

Can we be sure anymore that a team would even pick him up for league minimum? If not, the Twins would be on the hook for his whole salary, not just whole salary minus minimum. So, might as well keep him? What is the thought process here?

[USAFChief]

It has been common wisdom the last couple years (yes that's how long we've been having this Hughes discussion) that if the Twins let him go, some team would pick him up and pay the minimum salary and the Twins would be on the hook for the rest.

Can we be sure anymore that a team would even pick him up for league minimum? If not, the Twins would be on the hook for his whole salary, not just whole salary minus minimum. So, might as well keep him? What is the thought process here?

That’s what I don’t understand...what is the thought process?

 

I hope it’s money. I hate that, but at least I can understand it.

 

I hope, really really hope, it’s not that someone thinks he is a viable MLB pitcher.

[ewen21]

 

Things get a whole lot easier when you accept that Mauer is a one trick pony on offense (avoiding outs at all costs). He’s very good at it, and I’d love to get more than that out of a 6’5” 225 lb first basemen. But I’ve accepted that he’s mostly a table setter and facilitator and we simply need to actual run producers behind him to score consistently. You’ll only set yourself up for trouble if you need more than 70 RBI or 8 HR out of him.

 

He needs to every once in a while acknowledge the circumstances and adjust accordingly.  If he cannot/will not do that then he deserves criticism just like any other player who can't or won't adjust to the circumstances.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by ewen21

[TheLeviathan]

It's times like this that I'm glad I didn't get the extra innings package to watch this team.

[Jacksson]

Molitor has not figured out how to properly use Pressly.    He CANNOT be brought in with runners on base because he has over his time with the Twins consistently permitted inherited runners to score.Somehow, between Molitor, Pitching Coach, and Bullpen Coach there is a total lack of understanding of who to use and when to use them.  What happened to Castro's catching ability making our pitchers better??

[Tom Froemming]

On Hughes, it's absolutely all about the money. Sad to say it, because I like the guy, but he'd have been cut long ago if he wasn't on a long-term deal. The team is hoping he can find himself, and each additional surgery he has gives them a shred of hope that things may turnaround.

 

But ...

 

At what point is Hughes being on the roster actually costing them more money than he has left on his contract? Winning generates revenue more than anything else. I know if I was considering attending a Twins game and saw Hughes was the scheduled starter I'd probably look for something else to do. 

 

Also, I'm not sure I understand this front office's obsession with trying to snag free players. Sure, Tyler Kinley only pitched in low-leverage situations and David Hale bailed out the rest of the bullpen last night. Great. Last year they did the same kind of things with guys like Adam Wilk and Chris Heston. For what?

 

I'd much rather see them provide some opportunities for guys who have a shot at being long-term contributors. Let them get their feet wet in the majors. Anyone on the 40-man roster already burned an option this year when they were sent down to start the season, so there's really no reason why you can't shuttle them back and forth to/from Rochester. If somebody sticks, great! Transition them into a bigger role.

 

Obviously, these aren't the reasons why the Twins are on an eight-game skid, but I'm starting to get tired of the cute roster manipulation.

[FormerMinnasotan]

Things get a whole lot easier when you accept that Mauer is a one trick pony on offense (avoiding outs at all costs). He’s very good at it, and I’d love to get more than that out of a 6’5” 225 lb first basemen. But I’ve accepted that he’s mostly a table setter and facilitator and we simply need to actual run producers behind him to score consistently. You’ll only set yourself up for trouble if you need more than 70 RBI or 8 HR out of him.

Which is why I wouldn’t lose sleep over it if the Twins don’t resign him. His value is rather low IMO. What I have noticed from last year to this year is Mauer is only as good as his supporting cast. If most of the line up struggles Mauer is a sub .300 hitter with no power, if guys like Sano, Rosario, Buxton, Dozier are hot Mauer is a .300+ hitter with no power. Mauer for as long as he’s been here should be a leader on the field and work at elevating his play to make up for any short falls, instead he follows his teammates and plays well it seems only when they play well. If the team is slumping so is Mauer. For a clubhouse leader that’s unacceptable.

[jorgenswest]

Is there data on how often Twin pitchers are throwing first pitch fastballs? The Reds were jumping all over those fastballs.

 

I am not sure Hughes has any useful pitch but he was getting killed on early fastballs. Duffey’s rate of throwing fastballs is way up in his short stint this year at the expense of his curve ball. Maybe he needs to reverse and throw his off speed and breaking stuff first. Neither of these pitchers should be consistently throwing fastballs early in the count.

 

On the other hand, Hildenberger’s most successful pitch last year was his fastball. Why is his fastball usage way down this year?

[Tom Froemming]

Joe Mauer has a .449 OBP. He's gotten on base 12 times over this eight-game losing streak. It's not his fault the pitching staff has given up 74 runs over that stretch. What do you want him to do? Pitch?

[KirbyDome89]

 

I'd much rather see them provide some opportunities for guys who have a shot at being long-term contributors. Let them get their feet wet in the majors. Anyone on the 40-man roster already burned an option this year when they were sent down to start the season, so there's really no reason why you can't shuttle them back and forth to/from Rochester. If somebody sticks, great! Transition them into a bigger role.

This.

 

It was a big gripe last year too. Instead of scrap heap filler they might should be finding out what they have in the minors. If organizational guys can't hack it or they really think they found a gem on the outside, then fine, turn to the waiver wire.

 

At least by giving their own players the first shot they'll have a better idea of who might actually be able to contribute heading into each season, which helps in making FA and Rule V decisions. 

 

Agreed on the "cuteness," of some of these moves. 

[djvang]

This all stems from Fernando Rodney. A closer who consistently blows games tears the heart out of a team. Wins are instantly turned into losses. It happened with Ron Davis and it's happening again.

[jorgenswest]

Rotating through the end of the bullpen with options and AAAA pitchers is reasonably typical practice for competeting teams. The Yankees certainly lengthen their bullpen with this practice. It fixes a short term need while doing little for the long term.

 

Where is the Twins focus? Should it shift towards the long term? The middling short term signings kind of make it appear that they want to focus on both. They aren’t doing it both well thus far this season.

[Doctor Wu]

 

On Hughes, it's absolutely all about the money. Sad to say it, because I like the guy, but he'd have been cut long ago if he wasn't on a long-term deal. The team is hoping he can find himself, and each additional surgery he has gives them a shred of hope that things may turnaround.

 

But ...

 

At what point is Hughes being on the roster actually costing them more money than he has left on his contract? Winning generates revenue more than anything else. I know if I was considering attending a Twins game and saw Hughes was the scheduled starter I'd probably look for something else to do. 

 

Also, I'm not sure I understand this front office's obsession with trying to snag free players. Sure, Tyler Kinley only pitched in low-leverage situations and David Hale bailed out the rest of the bullpen last night. Great. Last year they did the same kind of things with guys like Adam Wilk and Chris Heston. For what?

 

I'd much rather see them provide some opportunities for guys who have a shot at being long-term contributors. Let them get their feet wet in the majors. Anyone on the 40-man roster already burned an option this year when they were sent down to start the season, so there's really no reason why you can't shuttle them back and forth to/from Rochester. If somebody sticks, great! Transition them into a bigger role.

 

Obviously, these aren't the reasons why the Twins are on an eight-game skid, but I'm starting to get tired of the cute roster manipulation.

Good points, What you called "the cute roster manipulation" smacks of things the front office tends to do in July or August .. not in April. Looking scary out there.

[Han Joelo]

 

On Hughes, it's absolutely all about the money. Sad to say it, because I like the guy, but he'd have been cut long ago if he wasn't on a long-term deal. The team is hoping he can find himself, and each additional surgery he has gives them a shred of hope that things may turnaround.

 

But ...

 

At what point is Hughes being on the roster actually costing them more money than he has left on his contract? Winning generates revenue more than anything else. I know if I was considering attending a Twins game and saw Hughes was the scheduled starter I'd probably look for something else to do. 

 

Also, I'm not sure I understand this front office's obsession with trying to snag free players. Sure, Tyler Kinley only pitched in low-leverage situations and David Hale bailed out the rest of the bullpen last night. Great. Last year they did the same kind of things with guys like Adam Wilk and Chris Heston. For what?

 

I'd much rather see them provide some opportunities for guys who have a shot at being long-term contributors. Let them get their feet wet in the majors. Anyone on the 40-man roster already burned an option this year when they were sent down to start the season, so there's really no reason why you can't shuttle them back and forth to/from Rochester. If somebody sticks, great! Transition them into a bigger role.

 

Obviously, these aren't the reasons why the Twins are on an eight-game skid, but I'm starting to get tired of the cute roster manipulation.

These were my thoughts exactly.  Whether it is this board, or Fangraphs, or even the Ringer, I see writers talking about "asset management" as if the goal is to squeeze the best 0.1 WAR or VORP or whatever out of every single transaction.  A true winning team is so much more than the sum of its parts.  

 

Curtiss K'd 5 of the 7 guys he faced last night in Rochester.  That would have been nice.

[beckmt]

I would like to see them bring up Romero, it might be a start. If you are not ready to cut Hughes, move him to the Hale role.  Maybe give Bard a look up here, he was not good in LA, but not terrible either, fit right in here.  

All closers are going to blow some games, it is too early to worry about Rodney.  Why was Sano playing third and Morrison first when you have better fielders on the bench.  If Twins had their better fielders playing, they might still have won that game.  That is on Molitor.

I am hoping they lose a few more in a row, and then will have to come to the let's change the manager for the sake of change.

[USAFChief]

Joe Mauer has a .449 OBP. He's gotten on base 12 times over this eight-game losing streak. It's not his fault the pitching staff has given up 74 runs over that stretch. What do you want him to do? Pitch?

No, it’s not.

 

But I couldn’t care less about a few walks.

 

That’s not what wins games, either.

[alexlegge]

1991 Twins on April 23rd: 4-10

2006 Twins on May 1st: 9-16

2017 Twins on August 5th: 52-56

2017 Dodgers from August 26-September 11: 1-16

 

Baseball is a weird sport. 8-13 feels like garbage, but let’s not rush to judgment.

[bluechipper]

 

The Playoffs are basically out of the question at this point. No way they can make up for this stretch.

The more things change the more they stay the same. You can't look me in the eye and tell me you're making an honest 100% effort to win every game if you keep running out guys like Hughes and Rodney the way they have.

It's always been very confusing to me that game 10 (for example) is treated differently than game 160. The expiriimentation just doesnt make sense.

The Twins have the same amount of losses as the Dodgers and the Nationals already have 15 losses.

 

This has been just awful to watch, but lets not overreact and say the season is over.

[ewen21]

 

Joe Mauer has a .449 OBP. He's gotten on base 12 times over this eight-game losing streak. It's not his fault the pitching staff has given up 74 runs over that stretch. What do you want him to do? Pitch?

No one says it is HIS FAULT, but can we admit he has tailed off since he became Mr. 2,000?

(6 for 35 with no runs driven in)

 

And if you want to talk about what he's done in the last eight games how about what he has done with his bat?  Everyone knows he loves to walk, but it is getting a little old watching him go up there with the being his primary objective.  Since the losing streak he is 4 for 25 with one extra base hit and no RBI.  Last night he walked the first three times he was up.  In his fourth at bat he took the first two pitches for strikes with two runners on and two out.  The game was getting away from us and he was in take mode until he had two strikes on him.  That to me was a very hard at bat to watch.

 

Why even take a bat to the box?

[Mike Sixel]

The Twins have the same amount of losses as the Dodgers and the Nationals already have 15 losses.

 

This has been just awful to watch, but lets not overreact and say the season is over.

Those teams have a lot more talent and room for error. When people look at this pitching staff, do they really think it is even average? Or close?

[bluechipper]

 

This is where my mind was going.  I know Alston doesn't throw any pitches but there seems to be some strategic misunderstanding here - I think Alston is a 'Fastball' guy - command and control it and everything else falls into place, or something along that.  There seems to be progress with Berrios, Pressly and even Gibby.  Everyone else either 'doesn't get it' and just thinks that commanding your fastball means throw fastballs right over the dish.

Well the Twins staff has the 5th highest walk rate in the MLB. Combine that with the 3rd highest staff BABIP and HR/FB rate and you've got pretty bad numbers at the moment.

 

That should normalize I am hoping, especially the walks.

[USAFChief]

Those teams have a lot more talent and room for error. When people look at this pitching staff, do they really think it is even average? Or close?

Four weeks ago I did.

 

I’m still hopeful.

 

Delusional, too, maybe. But still hopeful.

[FormerMinnasotan]

No one says it is HIS FAULT, but can we admit he has tailed off since he became Mr. 2,000?

(6 for 35 with no runs driven in)

 

And if you want to talk about what he's done in the last eight games how about what he has done with his bat? Everyone knows he loves to walk, but it is getting a little old watching him go up there with the being his primary objective. Since the losing streak he is 4 for 25 with one extra base hit and no RBI. Last night he walked the first three times he was up. In his fourth at bat he took the first two pitches for strikes with two runners on and two out. The game was getting away from us and he was in take mode until he had two strikes on him. That to me was a very hard at bat to watch.

 

Why even take a bat to the box?

Also with Sano, Morrison, and Rosario struggling shouldn’t Mauer try harder to carry the offense instead of looking for walks to get on base? I mean perhaps a more productive Mauer might in turn lead to a more productive Sano, Morrison, and Rosario.

[bluechipper]

 

Those teams have a lot more talent and room for error. When people look at this pitching staff, do they really think it is even average? Or close?

That's fair, but I think with Santana, most people realize this staff should give the Twins a chance to win each game. It would be nice if there were a couple more guys with the stuff that other teams would fear though, besides Berrios.

[USNMCPO]

When Trevor May is ready, could that spell the end of Terry Ryan's Phil Hughes travesty?

[USAFChief]

When Trevor May is ready, could that spell the end of Terry Ryan's Phil Hughes travesty?

we have to wait THAT long??

[Vanimal46]

That's fair, but I think with Santana, most people realize this staff should give the Twins a chance to win each game. It would be nice if there were a couple more guys with the stuff that other teams would fear though, besides Berrios.

Do we know where Santana is at in his rehab? For what I know it's been radio silent...

 

I would bet that May returns before Santana at this point.

[USAFChief]

Do we know where Santana is at in his rehab?

 

I believe he’s at Ft Myers.

 

Thank you, thank you, I’ll be here all week. Try the chicken.