Time to shuffle the deck

[h2oface]

 

I'm not sure why we are so quick to discard Grossman.  He's been a pretty good player for us the last two years, he's just off to an awful start.

 

I'd like us to better use our 25 man roster though, but that appears to be something even analytics people fail to grasp.  We've been wasting 2-3 roster spots every year as long as I've been a Twins fan.  (And it's not just the Twins)

 

The worst Grossman can ever be is adequate. Once he is worse than adequate, and falls to awful for any period of time, 3 weeks, he no longer fills his purpose. And he is not only awful at the plate, but more than awful in the field. As a bencher, his leash has to be very short.... even shorter than awfully short. 

[h2oface]

With Sano, Buxton, Garver, Castro, Grossman, and Morrison all at or below the Mendoza line, this team is truly in trouble, and breathing hard. Even Mauer has dropped .114 points in the last 6 games (3 for 23). This fearsome offense has helped fix Tanaka and Archer quite well.

[Mr. Brooks]

Then make a deal for him so we can send him down. Ugh.

I mean, he's 27 years old. If he's not an mlb player by now, no amount of minor leagues will make him into one.

 

Again, everyone, I'm not defending the move, or the player. But, I doubt the FO sees any value in sending him to the minors. At his age, you either keep giving him chances on the mlb roster, or you send him back to Miami/ cut him.

[Platoon]

Making the manager side step a Rule 5 on (what should be ) a contending team is tough to defend. 

 

With that said... It's a marathon... not a sprint. 

 

I'm probably gonna keep typing that for awhile. 

The Twins BP looks like it's in a marathon. Struggling, short of breath and getting flushed............

[Twodogs]

Molitor has made it very clear he won't use a lefty as a LOOGY only.

 

And if you could convince him that he should, you'd be much better off using Rogers (.556 OPS vs. LH) in that role, and cutting Duke (.704 OPS vs. LH).

 

Also, Rogers has options remaining, so they aren't going to DFA him.

I think it's hard to use a pitcher as a Loogy only when the starters are only going 3 and 4 innings. If the Twins starters start to average 6.1 to 6.2 innimgs kinda like that first week of the season then the Loogy comes into play because there won't be enough bullpen innings to go around at that point in time. So the starters need to last longer and then I think Molitor might use Duke and or Rogers as Loogys

[KirbyDome89]

 

I don't think it's ridiculous at all to feel this isn't a playoff team.
I certainly think they have a fair shot at being in the mix, but I don't think the opinion that they aren't quite there yet would be ridiculous.

Not a playoff team based on how they've looked to start 2018?

[Mr. Brooks]

Not a playoff team based on how they've looked to start 2018?

Based on 2018 thus far, definitely not.

But I think they'll play better than they have at some point. So, I think they'll probably be in that mix.

But that's just my opinion.

I'm saying that if someone doesn't think they are, that's not at all ridiculous.

They are one of those fringe teams. Certainly not favorites to make the playoffs, but not longshots either.

[Mr. Brooks]

I think it's hard to use a pitcher as a Loogy only when the starters are only going 3 and 4 innings. If the Twins starters start to average 6.1 to 6.2 innimgs kinda like that first week of the season then the Loogy comes into play because there won't be enough bullpen innings to go around at that point in time. So the starters need to last longer and then I think Molitor might use Duke and or Rogers as Loogys

This is Molitor's fourth season. He's made it very clear with his actions that he has no interest in using a LOOGY. I'm not just going by this year, or just when the bp has been strained.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Based on 2018 thus far, definitely not.
But I think they'll play better than they have at some point. So, I think they'll probably be in that mix.
But that's just my opinion.
I'm saying that if someone doesn't think they are, that's not at all ridiculous.
They are one of those fringe teams. Certainly not favorites to make the playoffs, but not longshots either.

Agreed on all of that. 

 

I don't think that was the view this offseason when they brought in Kinley though. I doubt anybody thought they were a lock, but I don't think many saw the bullpen being this bad early on. It makes no sense for a team trying to crawl out of the WC to waste a roster spot on a guy like Kinely. If the FO didn't view the team as contenders for a playoff spot then the moves they made apart from Kinley are certainly confusing. 

[Twodogs]

This is Molitor's fourth season. He's made it very clear with his actions that he has no interest in using a LOOGY. I'm not just going by this year, or just when the bp has been strained.

Maybe you're right, but even if you weren't, the Twins couldn't use those two in Loogy spots right now anyway. That was my point, hard to have a lefty specialist only when you need the bull pen to pitch 6 innings.

[Platoon]

Maybe I was suffering from rose colored glasses, but I had hoped, and thought, that this team would be on a level with the Astros and Cubs in the category of young upcoming talent. That wish seems further and further from having any chance of happening. I still can see Berrios and Buxton (sans injuries) getting there. Kepler a nice player, Rosario talented but still playing to his own drummer it seems, and Sano, with the exception of some prodigerous HR's more or less a detriment. We are now in our fourth year of "rebuilding", and are still treading water as a #2 WC contender. Same as 2015. I am sure we won't reach the dregs of 2016, but going .500 this year would feel about the same.

[Otto von Ballpark]

FWIW, Melky Cabrera just signed a minor league deal with Cleveland.

[USAFChief]

 

FWIW, Melky Cabrera just signed a minor league deal with Cleveland.

****.  *** **** **.

 

I'll wager right now that he'll come up big against the Twins at some point this year, and prove a valuable pick up in general.

[Doomtints]

 

"So far 5 Relief pitchers have pitched in half the games, they have to get more innings our of their starters."

 

Every starting pitcher in Major League Baseball should be required to go at least 5 innings barring injury.

There is no excuse for a starting pitcher to go through their silly routine for 4 or more days, finally get to actually play in a game, and then last 2 or 3 innings and do it all over again. Last year a couple of Gibson's wins were when he got shelled early, the Twins game back, he settled down and he and the Twins got a W.  I know will never happen but Hughes 3.1 innings is a joke. Can he pitch or not? Don't use the bullpen to save the starter from total embarrassment. Hang 'em out to dry.

 

Sure, but a pretty typical Gibson line is 4.1 innings pitched 5 runs allowed. Whatcha gonna do?

[howeda7]

Going right back into a tail-spin. I would again like to see them make some moves:

 

-Cut Grossman and call up Granite or LaMarre. I'd rather they get a stronger RH bat, but there aren't any.

 

-Cut Hughes. Put Lynn in the bullpen. Give Slegers the starts until Santana is ready.

 

-Stop sitting Mitch Garver. The offense is putrid right now, they can't carry Bobby Wilson.

 

-Tell Buxton he has to bunt at least once per game. Period.

[mudcat14]

Buxton needs to go to AAA.  I believe he has an option left.  His failure to generate any offense is costing us more runs than his glove is saving.  Each of the past two years, he's come back from a AAA stint as a new hitter.  Let's not drag it out any longer.

[Rosterman]

4 games in. Time to shuffle the deck.

 

Reasoning behind getting Robbie Grossman into every game?

 

When do you realize Lynn was a $14 million mistake. Heck, trade him for Jaime Garcia.

 

When do you realize Hughes is taking up space?

 

Can we figure out a batting order, any batting order, that MIGHT work better than what one is doing? See if Buxton sparks batting leadoff. Put Morrison in the cleanup hole. Maybe bat Dozier 5th. 

 

Is there any rhyme or reasoning behind bullpen usage? Stop using the same three guys. You can stop bringing starters out to get that extra inning (which usually is only an extra out) and no need to have a bullpen guy who finishes an inning come back out again. You got the arms.

 

Can't believe the central division is so weak. Anyone Everyone has a chance, it seems.

 

[jorgenswest]

To salvage they need to hope Lynn, Rodney, Santana, Morrison, Escobar, Dozier and Duke have a solid next two months and they get something in return at the deadline. None of them are bringing an elite prospect but the volume could help them hit on one. It is on the Twins staff to find those rough diamonds. I don’t know who they might receive in those deals but they take the best offer and move on.

 

After the purge of players who will be free agents, they have two months to take a look at a Polanco upon return, players acquired in trade and whichever minor leaguers really stand out.

[DocBauer]

Haven't this thread until it popped up again. Went back and read a lot of quality stuff I missed previously.

 

1] Grossman IS a bench player. But like all reserves, when starters get hurt...you play. It's the only reason he's been in the lineup so often.

 

I wasn't opposed to bringing him back. He can hit a little, get OB, flash occasional power, and his defense was much better in 2017. Doesn't mean I didn't and don't want an upgrade, however. His defense has slid back to 2016 unacceptable standards and he's done little to nothing offensively. He should be replaced.

 

2] It's time to just admit Hughes is burnt toast. Bring up Curtiss, Reed, whoever, and find someone you can trust. First guy doesn't do the job, rotate him out. We did this last season didn't we?

 

3] Signing Lynn was a smart move. It hasn't turned out. Maybe he takes Hughes spot. Let Slegers get a shot for now. What's he going to do, pitch worse?

 

4] What else is to juggle? The guys on the team just need to perform better. They just aren't as bad as some of the performances we've seen.

[ashbury]

Here's my take on Buxton: coaches to this point (minors and majors) have been focused on making him the best offensive weapon he can be. An emphasis on launch angle (judging by his uppercut last time I was paying attention) with an eye toward being a home run threat... isn't ... working out.

 

Time to switch gears and put all that aside for now. Keep him in the majors, but have him focus on doing things to win games using what he apparently has in his arsenal already, rather than try to develop a better arsenal. He can get on base - yes, I'm in the "bunt at least once every game" camp for now. Line drive singles (which can turn into doubles for him) and gappers (which might be triples) will do just fine, if he gives up on the useless fly outs. Improve the walk rate, which could be an exploitable outcome of being pitched to like a bunting threat.

 

Mid-career Gary Pettis will be an asset to a contending team. Do that for the rest of 2018.

 

Continue the strength training next off-season. That's soon enough. The HR power could still come in. Don't do PEDs though.

[yarnivek1972]

I would say it’s past time to shuffle the deck.

 

If bad baseball continues a couple more weeks it will be time to fold.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I would say it’s past time to shuffle the deck.

 

If bad baseball continues a couple more weeks it will be time to fold.

they are a game and a half back of Cleveland. No team in the central is over .500. Twins can absolutely turn it around.

[howeda7]

Cut Grossman and get Carter up here. He has 13 HR's at AAA. He can certainly do better than Grossman's .644 OPS. 

[jorgenswest]

Cut Grossman and get Carter up here. He has 13 HR's at AAA. He can certainly do better than Grossman's .644 OPS.

 

Did you look at his team stats of the the team he left? He wasn’t close to the best bat on the team and team ERA was above 6. The team OPS was above 900. Blash, Fernández, Fletcher and Ackley all had a better OPS with a high of 1281. I am certain Grossman would be among that group also.

 

Let Carter show the same bat in Rochester for a month.

[ashbury]

Did you look at his team stats of the the team he left? He wasn’t close to the best bat on the team and team ERA was above 6. The team OPS was above 900. Blash, Fernández, Fletcher and Ackley all had a better OPS with a high of 1281. I am certain Grossman would be among that group also.

 

Let Carter show the same bat in Rochester for a month.

It's a good principle to get your AAA pitchers from the PCL (they'll be undervalued) and your hitters from the IL (ditto). There are similar guidelines for AA and below, too (don't get your hopes up on a Texas League hitter, or a Florida State League pitcher). Of course, front offices are smarter about this by now; and there's a ton more art to it than I know how to describe. But, still.

 

Carter's off to a good start with our 'Wings, but I'd let the sauce simmer a bit longer, too.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Here's my take on Buxton: coaches to this point (minors and majors) have been focused on making him the best offensive weapon he can be. An emphasis on launch angle (judging by his uppercut last time I was paying attention) with an eye toward being a home run threat... isn't ... working out.

 

Time to switch gears and put all that aside for now. Keep him in the majors, but have him focus on doing things to win games using what he apparently has in his arsenal already, rather than try to develop a better arsenal. He can get on base - yes, I'm in the "bunt at least once every game" camp for now. Line drive singles (which can turn into doubles for him) and gappers (which might be triples) will do just fine, if he gives up on the useless fly outs. Improve the walk rate, which could be an exploitable outcome of being pitched to like a bunting threat.

 

Mid-career Gary Pettis will be an asset to a contending team. Do that for the rest of 2018.

 

Continue the strength training next off-season. That's soon enough. The HR power could still come in. Don't do PEDs though.

 

He can get on base? No, he can't in fact he is borderline terrible at doing so. I'm with you about bunting. Also, I don't think the reason he is struggling is the fact that the Twins are trying to get him to hit HRs or power hit rather than look to dump in singles, etc. They would take ANYTHING from him at the plate. Right now, he gives nothing at the plate and is lost to the point where it will soon be time to sit him down some. 

[ashbury]

He can get on base? No, he can't in fact he is borderline terrible at doing so. I'm with you about bunting.

That's what I was saying. Bunt, until the pitchers change their approach. Good pitches to hit are not necessarily good pitches to bunt, and vice versa. Mix it up a little, or a lot at first, and thereby get a better selection of pitches to swing at in the long run. A troublesome pitch low in the strike zone can make for a dandy drag bunt; pitchers will stop feeding him a steady diet of those if he makes them pay.

 

He needs to stop trying to be the hitter he eventually may be, and start doing the things that put pressure on the other team and win ballgames.

[The Wise One]

 

Cut Grossman and get Carter up here. He has 13 HR's at AAA. He can certainly do better than Grossman's .644 OPS. 

last year Carter had a 654 ops. While that is better than Grossman's current OPS, but not by much

[Riverbrian]

 

 An emphasis on launch angle (judging by his uppercut last time I was paying attention) with an eye toward being a home run threat... isn't ... working out.

 

 

If they are working with Buxton on launch angle. They need to stop that immediately. 

 

That'd be like teaching Stephen Curry to play Center. 

[DocBauer]

There's a lot going wrong right now offensively, and I think we can all agree with that. We lost Sano for a time, and Buxton, now Mauer is out,as well as Castro now for the season, and Polanco for at least half a season. The weather and travel schedule played havoc with games played, batting practice, all of it. But here on May 26, excuses have to stop.

 

When the season began, LaMarre was a good story. But even though I felt competition for Grossman was needed...never brought on board...when I looked at him, Escobar, Adrianza and Garver, I didn't exactly feel awful about the bench. Not great, but not bad. All these guys presed in to daily duty, with the exception probably of Escobar, well, then there is a problem.

 

I am as frustrated as anyone! Dozier needs to start getting hot. We miss Mauer. Morrison has been getting hotter and playing much better. But despite the losses, can't we all agree that what this team really needs is Sano and Buxton to get going? Sano had a weird and tumultuous off season, but is only 1 game back. Buxton probably needed a rehab, but that ship has sailed.

 

Sano and Buxton are both busts and we should move on, trade them if we can, and the Twins future is again a mess because of failed production for these two! Really? If you were a fan of another team, and you could acquire either or both of the 25yo Sano and 24yo Buxton, both former TOP prospects, (we're talking TOP or top 5 prospects), for prospects, wouldn't you be screaming for your team to do so?

 

Look, no rose colored glasses. I'm disappointed and frustrated as hell! But remember when Gaetti had hands of stone and could only hit .220-230? Or when Hunter had to be sent down because he couldn't cut it? In more recent memory, Koskie would never amount to much, Gomez couldn't hit, and neither could Hicks. But Sano and Buxton are both busts?

 

Patience sucks! And I don't have all the answers here. But I do know that "bust" and "trade" are also not the answers at this point.