Time to shuffle the deck

[TheLeviathan]

 

Was he a "pretty good player" in 2017? I can see the argument for 2016 -- his bat was a definite plus that year, and maybe the defensive metrics were off (or he should be a DH more often) -- but in 2017, that wasn't the case. He was just a league average bat with negative defensive/positional value. 0.8 bWAR and 0.5 fWAR, but in 456 PA, that's only marginally better than replacement level. Solidly below average.

 

FWIW, with Grossman's $2 mil salary, he'd probably clear waivers and could be outrighted to AAA (he doesn't have enough service time to refuse without forfeiting his salary), so we wouldn't necessarily be discarding him. We could swap him back in later, if we so desired.

 

Not sure if there's a better use for the roster spot at the moment, although once Buxton is healthy, and if we're willing to use Garver to pinch-hit for Castro, Grossman's role isn't that important either. An extra pitcher could be more valuable. Or maybe even getting a look at Jake Cave?

 

On the roster spots I was talking more about how we don't even plan to fill out the 25 man roster sufficiently.  This team needed a better right-handed, CF option on it's bench.  And it could've used an extra bullpen arm they actually planned to use.

 

As for Grossman, he's a bench player.  What ideas do you have about the value of who sits on a bench in major league baseball?   The Astros gave nearly 1,000 ABs to players with a lower WAR than Grossman last year.  And we could go around the league and find plenty of other examples.

 

Grossman is a pretty good player to have on your bench.  Let's compare apples to apples.  Most benches are populated by below average players.  That's why they are bench players.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The Orioles, to win 88 games, would need to play at a pace of....79-61 the rest of the way.

 

That is a 92 game pace....

 

that is not going to happen. 

 

That's the incentive. They get more return by trading early, because those players are playing more games for their new teams.

 

Why is "little in return" part of the requirements to add talent?

 

But yes, teams don't trade in April.

I think if the Twins called about these guys now, the Orioles would probably ask for more in return, but it would probably be too much, and hence no deal would happen. It's probably understood enough that the phone call doesn't even have to happen in the early months.

 

Also, there is value in being relevant, even if they fall short of the playoffs. Meaningful games in August and September boost attendance and keep eyeballs on the TV. I certainly wouldn't bet on the Orioles going to the playoffs at this point, but they're not hopeless for some relevance in 2018.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

As for Grossman, he's a bench player.  What ideas do you have about the value of who sits on a bench in major league baseball?   The Astros gave nearly 1,000 ABs to players with a lower WAR than Grossman last year.  And we could go around the league and find plenty of other examples.

 

Grossman is a pretty good player to have on your bench.  Let's compare apples to apples.  Most benches are populated by below average players.  That's why they are bench players.

I'm not saying release Grossman, but if you can swap him down to AAA, you can try some different things if you want (extra pitcher, better defender, evaluate a younger player, etc.). Even if it's just a low-cost, short-term shake-up. With DH and the OF committed, and few PH opportunities, Grossman's not essential, and we have some flexibility due to his salary and service time. That's all I'm saying.

 

(Also keep in mind WAR is a counting stat. With the Astros, Aoki had virtually the same bWAR as Grossman last year, but in half the PA. He was a better player. Same for Fisher and White. The vast majority of the Astros bad PA last year was Carlos Beltran on his last legs (or beyond them?).)

[yarnivek1972]

On the roster spots I was talking more about how we don't even plan to fill out the 25 man roster sufficiently. This team needed a better right-handed, CF option on it's bench. And it could've used an extra bullpen arm they actually planned to use.

 

As for Grossman, he's a bench player. What ideas do you have about the value of who sits on a bench in major league baseball? The Astros gave nearly 1,000 ABs to players with a lower WAR than Grossman last year. And we could go around the league and find plenty of other examples.

 

Grossman is a pretty good player to have on your bench. Let's compare apples to apples. Most benches are populated by below average players. That's why they are bench players.

You keep calling Grossman a bench player. He’s started almost half the team’s games.

 

I get that most of that is Buxton’s migraines, but therein lies the problem. He’s not good enough to be starting more than once a week. That’s the difference between the Twins and the Yankees. Not long ago, the Yankees had Ellsbury, Hicks and another OFer on the DL but were still able to trot out Judge, Stanton and Gardner. A Twins OFer gets hurt and the choices are LaMarre, Grossman, Granite or Adrianza.

[Mike Sixel]

And it's not like OF depth being an issue is a surprise, many people here spent the spring/winter asking for a legit OF to be added to the mix.....

[USAFChief]

 

You keep calling Grossman a bench player. He’s started almost half the team’s games.

I get that most of that is Buxton’s migraines, but therein lies the problem. He’s not good enough to be starting more than once a week. That’s the difference between the Twins and the Yankees. Not long ago, the Yankees had Ellsbury, Hicks and another OFer on the DL but were still able to trot out Judge, Stanton and Gardner. A Twins OFer gets hurt and the choices are LaMarre, Grossman, Granite or Adrianza.

Spot on.

 

"He's just a bench player" is another version of "He's the 25th man, what does it matter?"

 

[TheLeviathan]

So now all our bench players have to be....what?  .800+ players with good defense?

 

Well, I see reality is no longer welcome in this thread....

[TheLeviathan]

 

You keep calling Grossman a bench player. He’s started almost half the team’s games.

I get that most of that is Buxton’s migraines, but therein lies the problem. He’s not good enough to be starting more than once a week. That’s the difference between the Twins and the Yankees. Not long ago, the Yankees had Ellsbury, Hicks and another OFer on the DL but were still able to trot out Judge, Stanton and Gardner. A Twins OFer gets hurt and the choices are LaMarre, Grossman, Granite or Adrianza.

 

Robbie Grossman is a bench player.  That is a fact.  I will continue to state facts, yes.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

So now all our bench players have to be....what?  .800+ players with good defense?

Who said that? And where?

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'm not saying release Grossman, but if you can swap him down to AAA, you can try some different things if you want (extra pitcher, better defender, evaluate a younger player, etc.). Even if it's just a low-cost, short-term shake-up. With DH and the OF committed, and few PH opportunities, Grossman's not essential, and we have some flexibility due to his salary and service time. That's all I'm saying.

 

(Also keep in mind WAR is a counting stat. With the Astros, Aoki had virtually the same bWAR as Grossman last year, but in half the PA. He was a better player. Same for Fisher and White. The vast majority of the Astros bad PA last year was Carlos Beltran on his last legs (or beyond them?).)

 

I was using fWAR, which is why I'd rather not use WAR at all because it leads to ridiculous disagreements like this.  The point is, and remains, that all teams use bench players with warts and production like Robbie Grossman.  Including the world champs.

[yarnivek1972]

Robbie Grossman is a bench player. That is a fact. I will continue to state facts, yes.

I also believe in facts. Bench players don’t START half the team’s games.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I also believe in facts. Bench players don’t START half the team’s games.

 

He was not a bench player last year because he was a DH.  Did we not sign Logan Morrison to replace him?  So, again, as a matter of fact Robbie Grossman is a bench player for the 2018 Twins.

 

And, listen, I advocated hard for Carlos Gomez as a DH/OF option for this team.  They went with Morrison instead.  I think that's fine, but they needed a better fourth OFer IMO.

 

But a 25 man roster could've had a better 4th OFer and Robbie Grossman.  And should have IMO.

[nicksaviking]

 

So now all our bench players have to be....what?  .800+ players with good defense?

 

Well, I see reality is no longer welcome in this thread....

 

Well I'd settle for half of the bench at +.740.

 

And to keep up with Houston and Boston, yeah, they probably should be aiming for that minimal level of competency from the bench bats.

[yarnivek1972]

So now all our bench players have to be....what? .800+ players with good defense?

 

Well, I see reality is no longer welcome in this thread....

Grossman has a career SLG of of .370 or so. He doesn’t play even passable defense. He certainly isn’t a plus baserunner. Literally, the only baseball skill he has involves not swinging the bat. And he has started almost HALF the Twins games.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well I'd settle for half of the bench at +.740.

 

And to keep up with Houston and Boston, yeah, they probably should be aiming for competent bench bats.

 

Robbie Grossman was 740+ last year.  So is our confusion small sample size?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The point is, and remains, that all teams use bench players with warts and production like Robbie Grossman.  Including the world champs.

And my point is, Grossman can still be available in AAA if we need him back. You seem to be ignoring that very important point. The Twins don't have to send Grossman down, but they also don't have to leave him locked in on the MLB roster when he is struggling and the team might be better served by a different mix of players, even temporarily.

[TheLeviathan]

 

And my point is, Grossman can still be available in AAA if we need him back. You seem to be ignoring that very important point. The Twins don't have to send Grossman down, but they also don't have to leave him locked in on the MLB roster when he is struggling and the team might be better served by a different mix of players, even temporarily.

 

No, that point is just irrelevant to what you responded to.  There are people literally wanting to discard Robbie Grossman and Taylor Rogers in this thread.  And disregard their value as bench/role players.  

 

You want to talk about playing musical chairs with the 40 man....go for it.  That's not what I find ridiculous in this thread and was not what I addressed and you responded to.

 

I too believed this team needed a better 4th outfielder that, preferably, could hit right-handed.  This team went out and upgraded the DH (or thought they did) and put Grossman into a reserve OF role.  One which he is a pretty productive player relative to that role.  Where my beef is, and continues to be, is with two wasted bullpen spots and Ryan Lamarre.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

There are people literally wanting to discard Robbie Grossman and Taylor Rogers in this thread.  And disregard their value as bench/role players.  

I think the OP already admitted that he confused the terms "DFA" with "option" in regards to Rogers. I'm guessing he also confused the terms "release" with "outright" in regards to Grossman. And seeing how that poster isn't even participating in the conversation today, I'm not sure it helps to keep arguing that with other posters.

 

For the record, I don't necessarily agree with the OP, but I think Kinley probably has to go, and I wouldn't mind swapping out Grossman when Buxton comes back.

[Mike Sixel]

 

No, that point is just irrelevant to what you responded to.  There are people literally wanting to discard Robbie Grossman and Taylor Rogers in this thread.  And disregard their value as bench/role players.  

 

You want to talk about playing musical chairs with the 40 man....go for it.  That's not what I find ridiculous in this thread and was not what I addressed and you responded to.

 

I too believed this team needed a better 4th outfielder that, preferably, could hit right-handed.  This team went out and upgraded the DH (or thought they did) and put Grossman into a reserve OF role.  One which he is a pretty productive player relative to that role.  Where my beef is, and continues to be, is with two wasted bullpen spots and Ryan Lamarre.

 

And Phil Hughes, imo.....

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think the OP already admitted that he confused the terms "DFA" with "option" in regards to Rogers. I'm guessing he also confused the terms "release" with "outright" in regards to Grossman. And seeing how that poster isn't even participating in the conversation today, I'm not sure it helps to keep arguing that with other posters.

 

For the record, I don't necessarily agree with the OP, but I think Kinley probably has to go, and I wouldn't mind swapping out Grossman when Buxton comes back.

 

Robbie Grossman was described as an "unreasonable" bench option.  That he should be "replaced".

 

As if baseball is swimming with available outfielders that play good defense and have posted better OPS numbers than Grossman the last two years.  

 

You keep moving the goalposts and reframing the context and then fitting my posts into your reframe.  Please stop.  I was addressing something else, you twisted it into your thing.  We have nothing to discuss then as long as you agree we shouldn't be discarding these players.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Robbie Grossman was described as an "unreasonable" bench option.  That he should be "replaced".

 

As if baseball is swimming with available outfielders that play good defense and have posted better OPS numbers than Grossman the last two years.  

 

You keep moving the goalposts and reframing the context and then fitting my posts into your reframe.  Please stop.  I was addressing something else, you twisted it into your thing.  We have nothing to discuss then as long as you agree we shouldn't be discarding these players.

I'm not trying to do that. When I started responding to you, you weren't quoting any specific posts or posters, so it wasn't clear on who or what you were responding to. Certainly not everyone in this thread is using the terms you say now, and certainly not in the context of releasing the player, so please pardon the confusion. I'll drop the tangent.

[Doomtints]

 

This could be a very bad week. I'd like to see them shuffle the roster/batting order and bullpen.

 

Release Grossman. DFA Kinley and Rogers. Call up Curtiss and Duffey. Sign an OFer (Melkey Cabrera?) or call up Granite.

 

RH batting order

 

Buxton

Mauer

Rosario

Dozier

Kepler

Sano

LoMo

Escobar

Castro

 

 

Bullpen:

Pressly and Reed closer/8th depending on situation.

Rodney

Duke as Loogy only

Hildy

Duffy

Curtiss

 

Give Hughes a couple more starts until hopefully Santana is back.

 

I love these "lets throw everything out" posts. This is a ton of passion for the team. It's cool to see.

 

(It's all wrong, mind you, but I appreciate the passion.)

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I love these "lets throw everything out" posts. This is a ton of passion for the team. It's cool to see.

 

(It's all wrong, mind you, but I appreciate the passion.)

To be fair, it's not really close to throwing everything out. It's basically swapping out Grossman for Buxton when he returns, and swapping Kinley/Rogers for Duffey/Curtiss. (I guess he wants Melky Cabrera or Granite for LaMarre too, but just on the bench?) Heck, the poster even said to give Hughes a couple more starts!

 

A true "throw everything out" post would have to include Morrison and Castro at this point, and maybe even Sano or Buxton or Rosario for good measure. And Duke and Hughes from the pitching staff for sure, and probably some of Rodney, Lynn, and Hildenberger too.

 

As far as "throw everything out" posts go, this thread is clearly replacement level.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I argued for Grossman as a bench guy, and still would. Doesn't help that he's off to a horrible start, or that Morrison is off to a terrible start, or that Buxton is on the DL and Grossman is basically forced to play full time.

 

If it weren't for LaMarre, the Twins might be riding a 5- game losing streak instead only 3 games

[Number3]

"So far 5 Relief pitchers have pitched in half the games, they have to get more innings our of their starters."

 

Every starting pitcher in Major League Baseball should be required to go at least 5 innings barring injury.

There is no excuse for a starting pitcher to go through their silly routine for 4 or more days, finally get to actually play in a game, and then last 2 or 3 innings and do it all over again. Last year a couple of Gibson's wins were when he got shelled early, the Twins game back, he settled down and he and the Twins got a W.  I know will never happen but Hughes 3.1 innings is a joke. Can he pitch or not? Don't use the bullpen to save the starter from total embarrassment. Hang 'em out to dry.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I argued for Grossman as a bench guy, and still would. Doesn't help that he's off to a horrible start, or that Morrison is off to a terrible start, or that Buxton is on the DL and Grossman is basically forced to play full time.

If it weren't for LaMarre, the Twins might be riding a 5- game losing streak instead only 3 games

 

I still think the Twins made the wrong choice in how they upgraded Grossman.  I would've preferred our DH be able to play the outfield and hit right-handed.  And I believe the FO should've known that as well given Buxton's difficulties staying on the field.

 

And if you sign that guy instead of Morrison it would've meant Grossman is your second bench OFer and, given that role on the team, he's actually pretty good.  

[howeda7]

 

Maybe Falvine really don't think this is a playoff team, and are willing to test out these RPs? But I agree, it's odd.

That's ridiculous. And if it's true, then I want different leaders for this franchise. 

[howeda7]

 

You keep calling Grossman a bench player. He’s started almost half the team’s games.

I get that most of that is Buxton’s migraines, but therein lies the problem. He’s not good enough to be starting more than once a week. That’s the difference between the Twins and the Yankees. Not long ago, the Yankees had Ellsbury, Hicks and another OFer on the DL but were still able to trot out Judge, Stanton and Gardner. A Twins OFer gets hurt and the choices are LaMarre, Grossman, Granite or Adrianza.

It's basically a given that Buxton will miss 15+ games per year with injury/migraine issues IMO. The way he plays makes it inevitable. They should have upgraded the 4th OF spot with a RH bat that can play center. I've been advocating for Rajai Davis for a while. 

[Mr. Brooks]

That's ridiculous. And if it's true, then I want different leaders for this franchise.

I don't think it's ridiculous at all to feel this isn't a playoff team.

I certainly think they have a fair shot at being in the mix, but I don't think the opinion that they aren't quite there yet would be ridiculous.

[howeda7]

 

I don't think it's ridiculous at all to feel this isn't a playoff team.
I certainly think they have a fair shot at being in the mix, but I don't think the opinion that they aren't quite there yet would be ridiculous.

Feeling that they are not even a contender and it's therefore OK to burn a roster spot on a rule 5 guy is ridiculous.