Looks like Gabriel Moya is coming up

[Otto von Ballpark]

I get that, the question is about replacing Perkins. I thought if you weren't on the 25 man roster by Sept 1, someone had to be DL'd to be replaced. I must have it wrong.

Yeah, 25 man is meaningless now for determining postseason rosters.

[prouster]

 

The "terms of the debate" didn't change. More evidence came in. This isn't about me scouting Moya and thinking he's great, now or Sep. 1st. It's about seeing the new evidence that Moya is getting called up to maybe give a suspect pen a shot in the arm, and wondering if that is the case, should we have done that Sep. 1st instead of waiting until Sep. 12? We already knew the pen was suspect back then, and this sort of confirms that the 40-man, lack of AAA experience, or Moya's workload did not disqualify him from a call-up in the front office's eyes.

And please don't think of every post here as part of scoring debate points. We are all fans having a discussion. I just thought it was interesting that we delayed this promotion for 10 games. You can disagree without suggesting I am doing something improper.

 

I should have been clearer. By "debate," I simply mean a discussion over a topic. People have their opinions and try to reasonably explain those opinions. What rubs me weird about this one is that Moya, whose name has been basically absent around here for weeks, is suddenly this point of contention. I (perhaps unfairly) read your post as part of what I see as a larger tapestry of complaints about the front office that I don't think are always fair or fully formed.

[beckmt]

 

would that require a DL trip?

I believe that any player on the 40 man roster can be on the 25 man postseason roster. Maybe he has to be with the big club in September.  I could also be wrong on this.

[yarnivek1972]

 

Not just pension, but also lifetime health insurance for his spouse. Which can be important, as Doug Mientkiewicz would attest.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/28/sports/sp-dodgers-fyi28
 

 

 

Still talking about an enormous difference between the amount of money that Perkins has made in his career and the amount Mientkiewicz made in his.  Point being they should be able to afford private insurance.  It's a nice benefit, but it seems targeted wrong.  Just a hunch that Mientkiewicz is at the low end of salary earned for guys that make 10 years.  And even he is at $ 13 mil plus.  Which is, compared to Joe Lunchbucket, a lot of money.   It seems like the people who would need this more are guys who just fade away.  Like a Mike Maksudian (no idea why his name popped into my head btw).

[Mike Sixel]

 

Yeah, 25 man is meaningless now for determining postseason rosters.

 

I don't know, this is what I read on line:

 

For a player to be eligible for the postseason active roster, he must have either been on his club's expanded roster or disabled list as of midnight ET on August 31 of that year and not placed on the 60 day disabled list after August 1.[3] The one exception is for replacing players on the disabled list.

 

 

so, if you weren't on the 25 man roster on Aug 31, you have to replace someone that goes on teh DL, right?

[Doomtints]

My name is Gabriel Moya.

You are in the batter's box.

Prepare to be struck out.

 

[Craig Arko]

 

I don't know, this is what I read on line:

 

must have either been on his club's expanded roster or disabled list as of midnight ET on August 31 of that year and not placed on the 60 day disabled list after August 1.[3] 

Doesn't 'expanded roster' mean 40-man?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Doesn't 'expanded roster' mean 40-man?

 

hmmm, good question. Let me look again....

 

ah, they changed it THIS YEAR. The expanded roster includes the 40 man, yes.

 

Was Moya on the 40 man in August?

 

But, this does remove the "Perkins is on the playoff roster" question I had.

[Otto von Ballpark]

hmmm, good question. Let me look again....

 

ah, they changed it THIS YEAR. The expanded roster includes the 40 man, yes.

 

Was Moya on the 40 man in August?

 

But, this does remove the "Perkins is on the playoff roster" question I had.

Actually, they changed it back in 2014:

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/story/more-players-to-choose-from-for-postseason-roster-090114

 

Moya was not on the 40-man prior to today, so he would have to be a DL replacement to make the postseason roster. Santiago, May, and O'Rourke would allow us up to 3 potential DL replacements (Chargois won't accumulate 60 MLB DL days).

[Mike Sixel]

 

Actually, they changed it back in 2014:
http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/story/more-players-to-choose-from-for-postseason-roster-090114

Moya was not on the 40-man prior to today, so he would have to be a DL replacement to make the postseason roster. Santiago, May, and O'Rourke would allow us up to 3 potential DL replacements (Chargois won't accumulate 60 MLB DL days).

 

weird, maybe the article that I read that said "this year" was form 2014!

 

anyway, thanks everyone.

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

I am pretty sure the Dodgers used the DL work around with Seager 2 years ago, when he wasn't on roster. Pretty easy to come up with an injury to replace a guy.

[Mr. Brooks]

Still talking about an enormous difference between the amount of money that Perkins has made in his career and the amount Mientkiewicz made in his. Point being they should be able to afford private insurance. It's a nice benefit, but it seems targeted wrong. Just a hunch that Mientkiewicz is at the low end of salary earned for guys that make 10 years. And even he is at $ 13 mil plus. Which is, compared to Joe Lunchbucket, a lot of money. It seems like the people who would need this more are guys who just fade away. Like a Mike Maksudian (no idea why his name popped into my head btw).

I've worked around a bunch of very wealthy dudes, and every single one of them still loved getting free stuff, whether they "need" it or not.

 

I don't care if Perkins has $10 million or $10 billion, he's still going to want as many free benefits as he can get.

[jctwins]

 

A guy who's made roughly $ 30 mil in salary really shouldn't need full retirement brnefits. As I note on my Yahoo feed that Clinton Portis just filed for bankruptcy.

 

Pensions are protected from bankruptcy. It's a good financial decision to maximize a pension regardless of how much money you've made.

 

Stuf like this likely plays into far more personnel decisions than any of us realize.

[Kwak]

 

Pensions are protected from bankruptcy. It's a good financial decision to maximize a pension regardless of how much money you've made.

 

 

OJ is a prime example of that difference!

[Vanimal46]

 

My name is Gabriel Moya.

You are in the batter's box.

Prepare to be struck out.

 

 

One might say, we should expect Moya strikeouts from him than the other LH relievers.... 

 

http://media.tumblr.com/9e999e0277b7f8c2258ff6ceb91d5a65/tumblr_inline_n068dmPwJe1rx7bhw.gif

 

[mickeymental]

 

One might say, we should expect Moya strikeouts from him than the other LH relievers.... 

 

http://media.tumblr.com/9e999e0277b7f8c2258ff6ceb91d5a65/tumblr_inline_n068dmPwJe1rx7bhw.gif

 

moya less.

[Vanimal46]

From the Fangraphs chat today:

1:04

Brett: What can you tell us about Gabriel Moya from the Twins? His numbers are ridiculous, but is it all smoke and mirrors?

 

1:05
Eric A Longenhagen: There is some smoke and mirrors but that kind of stuff has a better chance to make a difference in one or two innings jolts than it does over 5+ innings as a starter. I do think he’ll be successful.

[Shaitan]

 

I've worked around a bunch of very wealthy dudes, and every single one of them still loved getting free stuff, whether they "need" it or not.

I don't care if Perkins has $10 million or $10 billion, he's still going to want as many free benefits as he can get.

 

Nitpicking, but they aren't free. He dedicated 10 years of his life and paid union dues that whole time.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

 

The Twins need to change philosophy from gimmicks (match-up of P vs H).  

LOOGYs are extremely prevalent as MLB pitching staffs have grown to be 12-13 as the norm. Like it or not, it's no longer a gimmick, it's a well used strategy to glean talent from the margins.  

 

I do agree that the bullpen needs to be improved, however the margin isn't the concern. The concern with the bullpen is lack of depth at the 7th,8th,closer roles. One of the best/cheapest ways to develop that talent is to promote youth to the bullpen ALA Trevor Hildenberger.  

[Lonestar]

Moya is not a LOOGY. If anything he is a ROOGY. His changeup is a Plus [maybe Plus Plus] pitch resulting in reverse splits. He was arguably next in line after Curtiss and has better command.

[Kwak]

 

LOOGYs are extremely prevalent as MLB pitching staffs have grown to be 12-13 as the norm. Like it or not, it's no longer a gimmick, it's a well used strategy to glean talent from the margins.  

 

I do agree that the bullpen needs to be improved, however the margin isn't the concern. The concern with the bullpen is lack of depth at the 7th,8th,closer roles. One of the best/cheapest ways to develop that talent is to promote youth to the bullpen ALA Trevor Hildenberger.  

There are many "flaws" to this stratagem:

 

The very definition of LOOGY is a guy who is there for only one out.  Ergo, he's not good enough to pitch to more than one batter (or for that matter, a RHB);

 

12 or worse 13 pitchers on the active roster unnecessarily restricts the bench.  Results in the lack of substitutes. How about having a RHB available when the opponent inserts their LOOGY?  It sure would be nice to a dependable hitter to turn the tables.  

 

Infielders in the OF.  Or any other sub-optimum use of players.  Necessitates having the Danny Santana's of the BB world so every possible position can be manned if required.

 

Regulars get less rest,  The alternative:  see above.

 

Pitchers don't have to learn to fix their own problems--they look to the dugout to be "bailed-out".  Maybe even "blame" their replacement for yielding the "big hit".  

 

Standards were lowered for the pitchers.

 

All of this so the manager can demonstrate his "managin' "skill.  

 

Last, but not least, the use of "lesser players"  to try to squeeze a marginal team into the playoffs and perpetuate the baloney of "Ya' never know".

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Standards were lowered for the pitchers.

I'm just going to focus on this because it's so ridiculous. Standards weren't lowered; hitters got better, statistical analysis evolved, and the game changed as a result.

 

If there were enough talented pitchers out there to eliminate the existence of the LOOGY, teams would have rejected the notion of a left-handed one out guy years ago. If you have the ability to field a pitcher who can reliably get three outs, of course you're going to prefer that guy over the one out specialist.

 

Your idea is great in the abstract. Add in the reality of teams constantly clamoring for pitching that can retire MLB hitters and it falls to pieces.

[USAFChief]

 

I'm just going to focus on this because it's so ridiculous. Standards weren't lowered; hitters got better, statistical analysis evolved, and the game changed as a result.

 

If there were enough talented pitchers out there to eliminate the existence of the LOOGY, teams would have rejected the notion of a left-handed one out guy years ago. If you have the ability to field a pitcher who can reliably get three outs, of course you're going to prefer that guy over the one out specialist.

 

Your idea is great in the abstract. Add in the reality of teams constantly clamoring for pitching that can retire MLB hitters and it falls to pieces.

It really hasn't changed at all over time.

 

The platoon advantage/disadvantage has existed since somewhere around the 1st inning of the 1st baseball game ever played.  RH hitters do better against LH pitchers, and LH hitters do better against RH hitters.  Almost without exception.  Opposite for pitchers.  

 

It's that simple.  Finding enough RH relievers who can reliably get tough LH hitters out in key situations is tougher than finding a LH reliever who can do the job better.

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

It really hasn't changed at all over time.

 

The platoon advantage/disadvantage has existed since somewhere around the 1st inning of the 1st baseball game ever played. RH hitters do better against LH pitchers, and LH hitters do better against RH hitters. Almost without exception. Opposite for pitchers.

 

It's that simple. Finding enough RH relievers who can reliably get tough LH hitters out in key situations is tougher than finding a LH reliever who can do the job better.

Well, yes. But hitters *are* better, which forces more pitching changes. Look at the lineups of 7-9 hitters even through the first half of the 80s. It's a different game.

 

Never mind that pitchers now throw *much* harder, which limits how many innings they can throw in a season. I'm sure Chapman could throw 95 innings a season if you told him to lob it over at 91mph.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Only being a little snarky here but it illustrates my earlier point. It's currently 13-0 in the sixth inning.

 

We can all agree this is a low leverage situation, right?

[Richie the Rally Goat]

There are many "flaws" to this stratagem:

 

The very definition of LOOGY is a guy who is there for only one out. Ergo, he's not good enough to pitch to more than one batter (or for that matter, a RHB);

 

12 or worse 13 pitchers on the active roster unnecessarily restricts the bench. Results in the lack of substitutes. How about having a RHB available when the opponent inserts their LOOGY? It sure would be nice to a dependable hitter to turn the tables.

 

Infielders in the OF. Or any other sub-optimum use of players. Necessitates having the Danny Santana's of the BB world so every possible position can be manned if required.

 

Regulars get less rest, The alternative: see above.

 

Pitchers don't have to learn to fix their own problems--they look to the dugout to be "bailed-out". Maybe even "blame" their replacement for yielding the "big hit".

 

Standards were lowered for the pitchers.

 

All of this so the manager can demonstrate his "managin' "skill.

 

Last, but not least, the use of "lesser players" to try to squeeze a marginal team into the playoffs and perpetuate the baloney of "Ya' never know".

agreed on your point that the strategy is sub-optimum.

 

I never said it was "good", I said it was "widely accepted". It is in no way, shape, or form novel, trickery, or unconventional.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

agreed on your point that the strategy is sub-optimum.

I never said it was "good", I said it was "widely accepted". It is in no way, shape, or form novel, trickery, or unconventional.

I'd even argue it's "good" given the situation in MLB. Optimal? No. But the best strategy teams can field right now? Probably, maybe even certainly.

[drjim]

Sure. That would mean he's mostly mop-up, in which case I already stipulated that it doesn't much matter.

 

But the suspect performance of our other pen options wasn't exactly a surprise. I mean, if I think I need another lefty to pair with Rogers, I don't think I wait for Boshers and Turley and Perkins to disappoint for another 10 games before I consider Moya, not when there were only 30 games to go anyway. Not that you cut the other guys, but we could have Moya's "feet wet" appearances out of the way now, and we could have tried him in a Boshers type spot tonight if we wanted.

Somehow it all works out.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I'd even argue it's "good" given the situation in MLB. Optimal? No. But the best strategy teams can field right now? Probably, maybe even certainly.

specialists can be very, very effective. Reading the tea leaves of roster construction, it appears that most GMs would agree that a specialist relief pitcher saves more high leverage runs (wins mores games) than a bench bat scores high leverage runs (wins more games). Kind of a loosey goosey WPA exercise to analyze roster construction.

 

The challenge here is tactics. Best laid plans by the GM get wasted if your manager continually puts down the bunt sign with your bench bat at the plate, or leaves your LOOGY in for a whole inning.

[howieramone2]

 

I should have been clearer. By "debate," I simply mean a discussion over a topic. People have their opinions and try to reasonably explain those opinions. What rubs me weird about this one is that Moya, whose name has been basically absent around here for weeks, is suddenly this point of contention. I (perhaps unfairly) read your post as part of what I see as a larger tapestry of complaints about the front office that I don't think are always fair or fully formed.

No you read it correctly. The handling of Moya was a no-brainer. Let him pitch in the play-offs and then bring him up to get his feet wet. The search committee didn't hire anyone off this board.