Gibby / Berrios

[Willihammer]

As expected, Berrios is tearing up Rochester. 2 starts, 0.00 ERA, 7 hits, 1 walk, 13k's.

 

Meanwhile Gibby had a laborious 5.1 IP start yesterday, throwing 88 pitches and allowing 11 baserunners. Gibby has always sprinkled in thunkers but they are becoming more frequent.

 

Opponents OPS against him:

2014: .679

2015: .698

2016: .820

2017: .908

 

FIP:

2014: 3.80
2015: 3.96
2016: 4.70
2017: 6.74

 

Listening on the radio yesterday Provus was giving live Statcast readings and several of Cleveland's hits were scalded at over 100 mph.

 

How much more of this do we need to see before making a move?

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'd give Kyle two more starts and then think long and hard about what to do with him (I'd probably put him in mop-up and rotate Haley into a shorter but still relatively low pressure role).

[Mike Sixel]

I'm guessing he gets 3-4 more starts if they are like this. But, this was my fear....not good enough to win, not so bad that he has to be cut.

[USAFChief]

He's 29.  Marginal stuff, compounded by spotty command.  

 

What is it anyone is hoping he becomes at this point?  

[gunnarthor]

I agree with Brock, a couple more starts and then see if he can either 1) traded off to some NL team 2) moved to the pen.  He might do well in the pen, sorta like Perkins.  

[ashbury]

He's 29.  Marginal stuff, compounded by spotty command.  

 

What is it anyone is hoping he becomes at this point?  

A promising 20-year old low-A starting pitching prospect from some other team's system?

 

_{^{Dream on.}}

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I'd give Kyle two more starts and then think long and hard about what to do with him (I'd probably put him in mop-up and rotate Haley into a shorter but still relatively low pressure role).

Would you move Duffey back to the rotation? Otherwise who would you bump to make room for Gibson's rotation replacement?

[gunnarthor]

 

He's 29.  Marginal stuff, compounded by spotty command.  

 

What is it anyone is hoping he becomes at this point?  

I had hoped he'd be a solid back end starter - 180-200ip, ERA+ around 100, 2-3 WAR.  He can still be that but he's looked bad so far.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Would you move Duffey back to the rotation? Otherwise who would you bump to make room for Gibson's rotation replacement?

Probably Tonkin though I'd like to bump two people off the pitching staff and replace them with Berrios.

 

Though I'm not sure who the second person would be right now.

[Dr. Evil]

I'm done with Gibson as a starter. Three or four more starts are not needed to convince me.  But, I like Duffy to stay in the pen.

[Whammy]

I'm guessing that single to left by Encarnacion was over 110. He destroyed that ball. A little elevation and that ball was long gone.

[Whammy]

Ps. Is there a place that has all of that data?

[SF Twins Fan]

Does Gibson have an option left?  If he does would it be worth sending him down to AAA to try and figure everything out?

[Willihammer]

 

I'd give Kyle two more starts and then think long and hard about what to do with him (I'd probably put him in mop-up and rotate Haley into a shorter but still relatively low pressure role).

What would you need to see from Gibby in 2 starts to convince you he has turned a corner?

[yarnivek1972]

What is the goal or upside of putting Gibson in the bullpen?

 

He doesn't strike hitters out.  So, if he comes into a game with runners on as a late inning or set up reliever, he's probably going to fail a lot more than a guy that CAN strike hitters out.

 

Closer?  Really?  First of all, see above.  Second, the Twins already have a pitch to contact closer in Kintzler.  While he's okay on THIS team at THIS time, he doesn't fit the mold of a closer because he can't get strikeouts when he needs them either.  That's fine as long as you limit baserunners.  But where Kintzler will run into trouble is when he gets two guys on in an inning because he will have a hard time pitching out of it consistently without a run scoring.

 

Middle or long relief?  Okay.  Is this an area of need?  Duffey seems to be flourishing in the role.  Haley has been better than expected, although he does throw a lot of pitches due to not having "put away" stuff.  Even Tonkin has done well in longer outings.  How many long relievers does one team need?

 

The basic question is "can Gibson help the team in the bullpen?".  I think the answer to that question is "no".

 

Let him go.  The financial commitment is negligible.  He was lucky to have tendered a contract last fall.

[Brock Beauchamp]

What would you need to see from Gibby in 2 starts to convince you he has turned a corner?

It wouldn't be easy. No implosions, less hard contact. It'd have to be a judgment call (and would be based on the rest of the pitching staff not imploding more spectacularly than Kyle).

[rghrbek]

 

He's 29.  Marginal stuff, compounded by spotty command.  

 

What is it anyone is hoping he becomes at this point?  

 

If the answer to this question is Nick Blackburn...well he already is him.

 

I am very hopeful the Twins' FO is different in this regard.  A few more clunkers and it's time to make a change.

[Vanimal46]

 

What is the goal or upside of putting Gibson in the bullpen?

 

He doesn't strike hitters out.  So, if he comes into a game with runners on as a late inning or set up reliever, he's probably going to fail a lot more than a guy that CAN strike hitters out.

 

Closer?  Really?  First of all, see above.  Second, the Twins already have a pitch to contact closer in Kintzler.  While he's okay on THIS team at THIS time, he doesn't fit the mold of a closer because he can't get strikeouts when he needs them either.  That's fine as long as you limit baserunners.  But where Kintzler will run into trouble is when he gets two guys on in an inning because he will have a hard time pitching out of it consistently without a run scoring.

 

Middle or long relief?  Okay.  Is this an area of need?  Duffey seems to be flourishing in the role.  Haley has been better than expected, although he does throw a lot of pitches due to not having "put away" stuff.  Even Tonkin has done well in longer outings.  How many long relievers does one team need?

 

The basic question is "can Gibson help the team in the bullpen?".  I think the answer to that question is "no".

 

Let him go.  The financial commitment is negligible.  He was lucky to have tendered a contract last fall.

 

Great first post! Agree with you 100%.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Berrios looks to be stretched out and available for any of 2 or 3 rotation spots now.

[Willihammer]

 

What is the goal or upside of putting Gibson in the bullpen?

 

He doesn't strike hitters out.  So, if he comes into a game with runners on as a late inning or set up reliever, he's probably going to fail a lot more than a guy that CAN strike hitters out.

 

Closer?  Really?  First of all, see above.  Second, the Twins already have a pitch to contact closer in Kintzler.  While he's okay on THIS team at THIS time, he doesn't fit the mold of a closer because he can't get strikeouts when he needs them either.  That's fine as long as you limit baserunners.  But where Kintzler will run into trouble is when he gets two guys on in an inning because he will have a hard time pitching out of it consistently without a run scoring.

 

Middle or long relief?  Okay.  Is this an area of need?  Duffey seems to be flourishing in the role.  Haley has been better than expected, although he does throw a lot of pitches due to not having "put away" stuff.  Even Tonkin has done well in longer outings.  How many long relievers does one team need?

 

The basic question is "can Gibson help the team in the bullpen?".  I think the answer to that question is "no".

 

Let him go.  The financial commitment is negligible.  He was lucky to have tendered a contract last fall.

I think we don't know the answers to all those questions yet.  The hope would be that he adds a couple ticks to his fastball and strikes out opponents at a higher clip than he does as a starter. 

He has always been okay at getting hitters out the first time through. The second time is where he gets crushed.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Does Gibson have an option left?  If he does would it be worth sending him down to AAA to try and figure everything out?

 

Gibson actually has two option years left.  He has only been optioned in one season of his career so far (2013) and he won't have the right to refuse an option until late in the 2018 season, at the earliest.

[Willihammer]

 

It wouldn't be easy. No implosions, less hard contact. It'd have to be a judgment call (and would be based on the rest of the pitching staff not imploding more spectacularly than Kyle).

Respectfully disagree. Yesterday was his 101st start, nothing he can do in 2 starts will move that mountain one way or the other IMO.

 

He has all of 2 relief appearances since he became a pro- and you have to go back to 2012 in E-town for those. Seeing what he could do in that role would be 1000x time insightful. And all it would cost is Haley / Tonkin / Santana / take your pick.

 

Easy call.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Probably Tonkin though I'd like to bump two people off the pitching staff and replace them with Berrios.

 

Though I'm not sure who the second person would be right now.

 

In regards to my post above, would you consider optioning Gibson?

[yarnivek1972]

 

Berrios looks to be stretched out and available for any of 2 or 3 rotation spots now.

Today would be Berrios' "day" on normal rest for Rochester.  However, since yesterday was an off day, the Red Wings could start David Hurlbut, who last pitched on the 12th.  An alternative COULD be letting Berrios start and limit him to say 60 pitches or so.  Then he could be in line to pitch Saturday in place of Gibson.  Be interesting to see what happens down there.

[Willihammer]

Not to mention Berrios. He's got 60-odd starts in the minors. Thoroughly dominant. He's got nothing left to prove in AAA.

[Winston Smith]

If he has an option send him down and let him get used to the bullpen down there. His stuff isn't good enough to be a starter in the big leagues, it might be for an inning at a time.

[Thrylos]

In 2014 and 2015 Gibson has been a good 3-4 starter in a competing team, with about 4 ERA, 2.5 WAR, and 190 innings (think Ervin Santana's career numbers).   Last season was bad, and he was battling injuries.  This season, his FB is -1 mph and his other pitches -2 mph off their peak.  Add a 25% HR/FB and it does not help.  Not sure if it weather or health or overthinking stuff at this point, but he needs to do something to figure it out.   Going to the pen will not help.

[yarnivek1972]

 

I think we don't know the answers to all those questions yet.  The hope would be that he adds a couple ticks to his fastball and strikes out opponents at a higher clip than he does as a starter. 

He has always been okay at getting hitters out the first time through. The second time is where he gets crushed.

In his career, Gibson has an opponents OPS of .714 the first time through the order.  It jumps to .819 the second time.  So, while that assessment is true, it doesn't change my opinion.  .714 the first time isn't very good either.  It's barely serviceable.  

 

The flip side of your optimistic view of Gibson adding a couple ticks and striking out more as a reliever is the fact that he has NEVER been a reliever.  He's started 184 games as a pro.  He's relieved in 2.  Both in rookie ball in 2012 on a rehab assignment I believe.  There is no reason to believe he will succeed doing something he has never done before at his age.  And there is no reason to try.  The Twins aren't lacking right handed middle relievers.

[Halsey Hall]

I was calling to trade him this last off season. He's been a 50-50 pitcher and you never know which one would show up. With the spring he had I was hoping he finally figured it out, but it doesn't look that way. A couple more clunker starts and he'll be done. We can't put up with this stuff year after year after year.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

In regards to my post above, would you consider optioning Gibson?

Definitely, though I'm not sure it'd be my first choice.