This has been a disappointing offseason

[Richie the Rally Goat]

No one should be worried about service time for relief pitchers, should they? Other than that, we are talking about Berrios, how long would he have to stay down not to burn a year.

and 90% of all pitchers get badly injured in some kind of career altering way.

 

The Hoyt Wilhelm's and Jamie Moyer's are rare.

[David HK]

Well, these perceptions are kind of their own fault-  they did the Castro deal early on, and got everybody's hopes up.  Then.... cue the crickets....

 

I gotta concur with the assessment of disappointment.  Although mine is the kind of disappointment accompanied with a knowing *sigh, same old Twinks* kind of reaction.    In fact, it's kind of hard to type this with my shoulders shrugged, and palms upturned, eyes beseeching the heavens.

[jimmer]

 

Well, these perceptions are kind of their own fault-  they did the Castro deal early on, and got everybody's hopes up.  Then.... cue the crickets....

 

I gotta concur with the assessment of disappointment.  Although mine is the kind of disappointment accompanied with a knowing *sigh, same old Twinks* kind of reaction.    In fact, it's kind of hard to type this with my shoulders shrugged, and palms upturned, eyes beseeching the heavens.

Some people made that deal out to be more than it was.  Some interesting descriptions of that signing were thrown around.  Many people may have thought it was the beginning of an awesome offseason, but some have been fooled before and some weren't going to this time.

[drivlikejehu]

I'm not sure what Falvey & Levine could do about the low demand for Dozier or the horrid free agent class. It's easy to criticize in the abstract but I'm not sure what realistically could have been done differently, save for releasing Danny Santana or something minor like that.

[NoCal]

Kind of late to this thread. I recommend listening to an interview by David Axelrod with Theo Epstein. Theo describes how he rebuilt the organizations in Boston and Chicago, especially in Chicago. It begins with defining the Way that the team needs to play, and then by building a scouting department, and proceeds to rebuilding the player development process. What goes on at the major league level is almost irrelevant; the long view is essential. And transparency - tell the fans honestly what you are doing, and set expectations appropriately.Check out The Ax Files podcast and get an insight into how these young, new baseball execs operate.

[HitInAPinch]

 

Kind of late to this thread. I recommend listening to an interview by David Axelrod with Theo Epstein. Theo describes how he rebuilt the organizations in Boston and Chicago, especially in Chicago. It begins with defining the Way that the team needs to play, and then by building a scouting department, and proceeds to rebuilding the player development process. What goes on at the major league level is almost irrelevant; the long view is essential. And transparency - tell the fans honestly what you are doing, and set expectations appropriately.Check out The Ax Files podcast and get an insight into how these young, new baseball execs operate.

 

Link?

[beckmt]

I can sort of understand what is going on, but still am disappointed.  Still think the Twins should sign some relief pitchers, those can have returns during the season.

1.  Evaluation.  Twins are brings about 9 starting pitcher candidates to ST.  Innings are going to be at a premium. Twins need to be correct on which ones to keep, which ones to cut and which ones to send to Rochester.  Reading between the lines on Neil Allen's fastball control, I can see both Duffey and Berrios starting at Rochester until they gain the neccessary control.  That still leaves several starting pitchers battling for 5 spots. It is hard to evaluate pitchers when they are getting about 15 innings before cutdowns start. 

2.  Relievers.  This is less crowded and their are only about 3-4 spots open.  I my mind there should only be one or two spots closed(Rogers and Changos), but that is what it looks from here. I would sign Holland(if terms are good) and at least one other reliever, lets give ourselves a chance to compete.  Starters are not going deep into the game,  very good bullpen is necessary. This assumes May is going to start.

3.  The only reason for DSan to be on this roster is if you are going to trade Dozier and need another infielder.  I guess how things play out you can always cut him at the end of spring training.  Maybe that could let us send him to Rochester.  Do not see another middle infielder yet who could start here if we traded one of our top three, by mid season we should know how Michael and Goodrum turn out.

4. This roster construction also somewhat ties are hands in the draft.  Would we have to take the best college pitcher so he will be here in 2 years, while if better we could roll the dice on the best player available(right now this is Greene).

5.  Maybe the new FO needs more time, but this is not a good start and communication to the public as to what is going on is terrible.

6. Do not know why Pohlad intervened to keep Molitor as manager.  If the Twins do as we all expect, there is 0 chance of him coming back and you are just torturing a classy HOF for a last year.  Can somewhat understand this, but what is the plan? 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Kind of late to this thread. I recommend listening to an interview by David Axelrod with Theo Epstein. Theo describes how he rebuilt the organizations in Boston and Chicago, especially in Chicago. It begins with defining the Way that the team needs to play, and then by building a scouting department, and proceeds to rebuilding the player development process. What goes on at the major league level is almost irrelevant; the long view is essential. And transparency - tell the fans honestly what you are doing, and set expectations appropriately.Check out The Ax Files podcast and get an insight into how these young, new baseball execs operate.

 

long view....they just won the WS in how many years he's been on the job? 

 

I recall people telling me I was insane for saying the Cubs were ahead of the Twins in the rebuild, and the Astros.......anyone disagree now?

[Craig Arko]

long view....they just won the WS in how many years he's been on the job? 

 

I recall people telling me I was insane for saying the Cubs were ahead of the Twins in the rebuild, and the Astros.......anyone disagree now?

Occasionally questioning one's sanity is among the best ways to retain it.

[goulik]

We had a bad team. We decided the front office did a poor job and brought back TR to run the same old system.

 

We were still bad so we decided we needed new players.

 

Team did not get better. We blamed the coaches and went out and got new coaches.

 

We had a one year improvement.

 

And the team went back down in 2016. We decided to go with a whole new system.   :shoot:

 

The new system (at least how I saw it advertised when we hired Levine and Falvey) includes how we measure pitching and address pitchers in the minors. This includes new methods in both analytics and instruction from Rookie ball to AAA and even on the MLB club. None of those changes can be measured in the off season and won't be measurable until we are well into this upcoming season. Player evaluations therefore should not be based on how they used to do but on how they respond to the new systems. They should reassess talent, talent acquisition and talent development top to bottom and then jettison the garbage. This is not the type of makeover that happens in two months and unfortunately, I do not see it happening in less than 2 years but hopefully the product on the field is impacted in the next 6 months.

[GCTF]

 

long view....they just won the WS in how many years he's been on the job? 

 

I recall people telling me I was insane for saying the Cubs were ahead of the Twins in the rebuild, and the Astros.......anyone disagree now?

To be fair, I don't think they let that guy post here anymore.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I'm not sure what Falvey & Levine could do about the low demand for Dozier or the horrid free agent class. It's easy to criticize in the abstract but I'm not sure what realistically could have been done differently, save for releasing Danny Santana or something minor like that.

Off the top of my head, I like what Tampa has done with Tolleson, and the Brewers with Feliz. Tampa with Rasmus too if we thought we needed an outfielder.

 

Avoiding the annual "pray that he's just AAA depth" signing in Ryan Vogelsong may have helped too.

 

Edit: Jae-Gyun Hwang was an intriguing depth signing too.

[nicksaviking]

 

You can only do those things with players you have direct access to. You can't do this for players in other team systems. This would have had no impact on trade decisions.

 

This also isn't metrics, this is part of a training regimen.

 

You were upset about them not having values put on their own assets.

 

Yep. What's the point in an analytics department if they can't instantly put a value on their assets. There is no feet wetting going on here.

 

Regardless if it is outside players, the team should know the value of their own first as they're going to have use them to get new players or at least dump some to free up roster spots.

[drjim]

 

To be fair, I don't think they let that guy post here anymore.

 

To be even more fair, it's Mike's other account.

[Doomtints]

 

You were upset about them not having values put on their own assets.

 

 

Regardless if it is outside players, the team should know the value of their own first as they're going to have use them to get new players or at least dump some to free up roster spots.

 

I was upset about nothing. I was responding to people talking about, "Well shucks, they couldn't do anything this offseason because they are still getting their feet wet. They simply have no knowledge about baseball players."

 

As for knowing the value of their internal players, you probably noticed Yohan Pino was recently re-signed. Let that simmer a bit, because that decision certainly did not come from any new blood in the organization. 

[drivlikejehu]

 

Off the top of my head, I like what Tampa has done with Tolleson, and the Brewers with Feliz. Tampa with Rasmus too if we thought we needed an outfielder.

Avoiding the annual "pray that he's just AAA depth" signing in Ryan Vogelsong may have helped too.

Edit: Jae-Gyun Hwang was an intriguing depth signing too.

 

Another outfielder for what purpose? I'm not sure I understand what you want them to be shooting for in 2017 . . . 

[Otto von Ballpark]

Another outfielder for what purpose? I'm not sure I understand what you want them to be shooting for in 2017 . . .

Hey, that's not necessarily my preference, I've just seen them pitching the idea, and Rasmus was a cheap bounceback candidate.

 

My area of focus would have been bullpen targets.

[drivlikejehu]

 

Hey, that's not necessarily my preference, I've just seen them pitching the idea, and Rasmus was a cheap bounceback candidate.

My area of focus would have been bullpen targets.

 

Why? Bullpen spending is for teams looking to contend, and the Twins have relief arms they may as well try out anyway.

[gunnarthor]

 

long view....they just won the WS in how many years he's been on the job? 

 

I recall people telling me I was insane for saying the Cubs were ahead of the Twins in the rebuild, and the Astros.......anyone disagree now?

In fairness, the Cubs spent 220m on their team.  The Twins *could* spend their way out of this but they won't because 1) they don't have the kind of market that could support that and 2) the Pohlads wouldn't do it.

 

The Astros.  Man, I don't get them.  The Giles trade, the Gomez trade, the Gattis trade, the Villar trade.  I don't know what happens if Correa, Altuve and Bregman aren't otherworldly again.  I look at their roster and the talent they've moved off and I think they are walking a real fine line.  Smarter people think they're a great team.  Not sure, I'm probably wrong and they've been better these last two seasons but I have no idea what they're doing.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Why? Bullpen spending is for teams looking to contend, and the Twins have relief arms they may as well try out anyway.

Taking a $1 mil flyer on Tolleson is "bullpen spending for contenders" now?

[drivlikejehu]

 

Taking a $1 mil flyer on Tolleson is "bullpen spending for contenders" now?

 

Well you said "My area of focus would have been bullpen targets" not that you would only take fliers. 

 

But since I'm not a mind-reader, I couldn't infer that and I still don't see the rationale behind it. Do you mean as a possible trade chit for a minor deadline deal? Otherwise, who cares? What is the point of the flyer?

[Vanimal46]

Why? Bullpen spending is for teams looking to contend, and the Twins have relief arms they may as well try out anyway.

Every team needs bullpen arms. And as we've seen the last couple of July trade deadlines, bullpen arms generate a pretty good return.

 

Seems like a cost effective way to acquire additional talent for a team that has few trade able assets.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Well you said "My area of focus would have been bullpen targets" not that you would only take fliers.

 

But since I'm not a mind-reader, I couldn't infer that and I still don't see the rationale behind it. Do you mean as a possible trade chit for a minor deadline deal? Otherwise, who cares? What is the point of the flyer?

Go back a few posts to when we started this exchange. Remember when you picked on me about adding an outfielder? First name there was Tolleson. No mind reading required.

 

You can pick on any individual move as not meaning much, it is the complete absence of moves that is disappointing. The whole roster was fine? No projects were available that were more interesting than the ones already on the roster or in AAA?

[drivlikejehu]

 

Go back a few posts to when we started this exchange. Remember when you picked on me about adding an outfielder? First name there was Tolleson. No mind reading required.

 

Yes, that was one example. You then said "bullpen arms," which is plural and implies a general interest in upgrading the bullpen. I assume a post means what it says.

 

Anyway, I'm just trying to understand - your criticism of Falvey is that he didn't sign Tolleson? Or one of maybe a few comparable players?

 

What is the track record of guys like that bringing back actual prospects at the deadline? Legit question, I have no idea. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

Yes, that was one example. You then said "bullpen arms," which is plural and implies a general interest in upgrading the bullpen. I assume a post means what it says.

They could have looked at multiple bullpen arms and signed one, or let them battle for 1 spot in spring training if you understand 1 but are puzzled by more than that.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Off the top of my head, Jepsen got Hu. It wouldn't be crazy to see a good performing reliever fetch the same haul as Nunez (Mejia). Mark Lowe got a few guys. Even Abad got Light.

[USAFChief]

Why? Bullpen spending is for teams looking to contend, and the Twins have relief arms they may as well try out anyway.

There really isn't a downside to making your team stronger. Contender, wanna-be, or also ran. You play em, or trade em. Either way, what's the problem? "Blocking" minor league pen arms? Doesn't happen. At least not for long enough to matter.

[drivlikejehu]

Sure, but there are only so many bullpen spots. You can speculate about trade potential for the guys they already have - Kintzler, Pressly, etc. 

 

Either way, that is really, really small potatoes. It's crazy to say Falvey is blowing it by not signing a reclamation project middle reliever.

 

There are some posters who want moves for the sake of moves. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

Disappointment does not mean blowing it.

[drivlikejehu]

 

Disappointment does not mean blowing it.

 

Then why be disappointed?