This has been a disappointing offseason

[Vanimal46]

I see an opportunity to upgrade the back of the bullpen. Last year the plan was May/Jepsen/Perkins and fill in the rest. Didn't work out well as we know. This year are we really heading into the season with Kintzler as the closer again? Is Chargois ready for the 8th inning set up role? It'd feel much better with someone like Feliz brought on to anchor the back end of the pen.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Then why be disappointed?

Is that philosophical?

 

We're on a baseball message board. The actions and inactions of our favorite club can please or disappoint us.

[USAFChief]

Sure, but there are only so many bullpen spots.

 

Seven, maybe eight. There's room. Virtually every team is looking for bullpen help by May or June, every year.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Seven, maybe eight. There's room. Virtually every team is looking for bullpen help by May or June, every year.

 

And many bullpen guys have been shipped out at the deadline over the last few years.  Considering the relatively low investment in years and dollars, coupled with the trade returns being seen, it's a great place to spend some money for a team looking to add assets.

[drivlikejehu]

 

Is that philosophical?

We're on a baseball message board. The actions and inactions of our favorite club can please or disappoint us.

 

I was nearly banned for how I expressed my scathing views on the prior regime, so I don't have a problem with reacting to Twins news, non-news, etc.

 

I'm just saying that the disappointment and criticism from some quarters seems unreasonable under the circumstances. New leadership takes over a moribund organization that has to be overhauled from top to bottom . . . signing a random 6th inning reliever is just not very important in the scheme of things.

 

At a minimum, I don't see how conclusions can be reached at this stage. If half the bullpen in June is made up of AAAA guys that suck and have no trade value, sure, look back and point out that it would have made more sense to sign 1 or 2 guys. It's the rush to judgment I can't understand.

 

[specialiststeve]

This isn't "Fantasy Baseball" everyone. We have acquired a quality defensive Catcher that was the 13th overall rated FA at a need spot. Check....

 

We DIDN'T trade our best player for less than value.

 

We took care of our arbitration players without issue.

 

We have a great young nucleus that needs to grow up. It takes time.

 

We are not going to the WS this year so growing up and getting the young studs the AB's and them getting settled in is going to be what we are. That may disappoint some but we have a great team around the corner be patient.... I know that is not the thing these days but.....

[TheLeviathan]

 

 

We are not going to the WS this year so growing up and getting the young studs the AB's and them getting settled in is going to be what we are. That may disappoint some but we have a great team around the corner be patient.... I know that is not the thing these days but.....

 

All of this is great....we still need to be able to get people out.  Scoring wasn't a problem last year and while I am a fan of the Castro signing, it's not enough.  By the time internal pitching options arrive we could be looking at "Miguel Sano....free agent" square in the face.

[jimmer]

 

This isn't "Fantasy Baseball" everyone. We have acquired a quality defensive Catcher that was the 13th overall rated FA at a need spot. Check....

 

We DIDN'T trade our best player for less than value.

 

We took care of our arbitration players without issue.

 

We have a great young nucleus that needs to grow up. It takes time.

 

We are not going to the WS this year so growing up and getting the young studs the AB's and them getting settled in is going to be what we are. That may disappoint some but we have a great team around the corner be patient.... I know that is not the thing these days but.....

I wish I had as much faith in this young nucleus to be a great team as you do and could speak about it as if it was fact.

[Oldgoat_MN]

 

Occasionally questioning one's sanity is among the best ways to retain it.

 

Absolutely!

 

And just to help out, I regularly questions Mike's sanity as well.

[beckmt]

Over the next two years payroll is going down.  Spending a little money to make the team better now should be done.  A very good to great bullpen is a way to cover a lot of other issues, ask the Royals.  No reason not to sign a couple of people off the top of the list.  If you need to call up youngsters forcing their way easy to flip or cut bullpen pitchers.  Good clubs do this all the time. 

[mazeville]

 

This isn't "Fantasy Baseball" everyone. We have acquired a quality defensive Catcher that was the 13th overall rated FA at a need spot. Check....

 

We DIDN'T trade our best player for less than value.

 

We took care of our arbitration players without issue.

 

We have a great young nucleus that needs to grow up. It takes time.

 

We are not going to the WS this year so growing up and getting the young studs the AB's and them getting settled in is going to be what we are. That may disappoint some but we have a great team around the corner be patient.... I know that is not the thing these days but.....

 

We didn't trade our veteran assets at peak value for players who will be able to help us for several years down the line instead of just two. 

 

We did not upgrade a farm system that is suddenly mediocre.

 

We did not do something about a weak-fielding shortstop who would be better off playing second base.

 

We did not improve our pitching.

 

I'm all for giving the young players a shot. And I actually believe the Twins will be 10-15 games better than they were last year. I also understand the new regime needs time, and understand that the team should in no way have traded Brian Dozier for just JDL and junk.

 

But this team has a lot of needs. It did little this offseason to address them. As you said, this team isn't going to win a world series this year. It isn't even going to go to the playoffs. Yet they did nothing to build for the future. And that's disappointing.

[Mike Sixel]

 

To be even more fair, it's Mike's other account.

 

I have 6 accounts. I roll a die before every post to see which personality I use....

[Mike Sixel]

 

Then why be disappointed?

 

for some people, the world is not black and white, it's a dial. You can be disappointed in an outcome, and still not think it is the end of the world. Well, I can. Maybe others can't. 

[specialiststeve]

 

We didn't trade our veteran assets at peak value for players who will be able to help us for several years down the line instead of just two. 

 

We did not upgrade a farm system that is suddenly mediocre.

 

We did not do something about a weak-fielding shortstop who would be better off playing second base.

 

We did not improve our pitching.

 

I'm all for giving the young players a shot. And I actually believe the Twins will be 10-15 games better than they were last year. I also understand the new regime needs time, and understand that the team should in no way have traded Brian Dozier for just JDL and junk.

 

But this team has a lot of needs. It did little this offseason to address them. As you said, this team isn't going to win a world series this year. It isn't even going to go to the playoffs. Yet they did nothing to build for the future. And that's disappointing.

 

You do have some points but .....

 

Only guy I know of at peak value that  we didn't trade is  Dozier.. Which Is still possible  to other team's but  not likely. Folks have to understand that as they say it takes 2 to tango. If there is not a trade partner that is willing to give you  what you want and or need there are no real options but to stand pat.... Trading for something you don't need or not getting appropriate value  is a going the wrong direction.

 

We actually had a pretty good draft last year and the reason we went to the middle of the pack is our studs are in the show now... The young guys in the lower clubs have some pretty good talent but takes time. Our minors are fine.

 

Shortstop is  an issue... am praying for vast improvement or a trade. Gordon is getting close so a vet that can pick it would be nice. Spring training will show a lot. I think if Polanco is clearly not ready they will do something.

 

We actually did  improve our pitching. Justin Haley the rule 5 guy is the real deal. He will help this team. Also signed some vet's ... Tepesch  Vogelsong .... not sexy but depth counts.... every step forward counts.

 

As far as not building for the future I would disagree. Haley is a nice young player. Getting the young guys at bats and innings of experience IS building for the  future.

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

You lost me at describing Vogelsong as a "step forward".

[Jack Goin]

 

As for knowing the value of their internal players, you probably noticed Yohan Pino was recently re-signed. Let that simmer a bit, because that decision certainly did not come from any new blood in the organization. 

As a minor league free agent to pitch in Rochester.

[Jack Goin]

...

 

 

All teams have access to the same data. There is no team in baseball that sends statisticians to every game to measure raw data a different way.

Sort of true. We have access to a lot of the same data. It's how creative you are with that data. But you can also explore projects outside of the scope of statistics to create new data and new understandings.

[Jack Goin]

Yet they did nothing to build for the future. And that's disappointing.

I would argue this statement isn't true. We may not have done obvious things that build for the future but our eye has been on building for the future. Understandably as a fan you won't really want to hear this, but creating and developing the culture is the foundation. As you build that out then you can make roster moves you would like to see. The Cubs, Astros, Cardinals, etc. have all started with the culture first. Unfortunately for fans that isn't what they want to see or hear. But it's very important.

[Jack Goin]

They likely have a spreadsheet in their hands with their value of every player in the league, and had it before they started with the Twins.

 

Provided by the Twins analytics department.

[Champuckett]

They are playing the long game and committing to the current core. The disappointment comes from the expectation that they were going to go crazy with trades and load this team with fresh prospects. They did not.

 

We already have a very young core. The indication we see from the lack of movement by the front office means they are going to see what they got with the current squad. They didn't feel they needed to rebuild that core, not this year. Every young core does not start out playing MVP caliber ball. It takes a few years. It has now been a few years, let's see what happens.

 

If the core plays up to internal projections, which I assume is projecting to be a net gain over last season, then they will win a lot more games. If they don't, then their gamble failed and going heavily into the trading business, will commence.

[h2oface]

If the prospects become MLB players..........  there will be a lot of crow to eat.

 

But yowser.......... the pitching sure does suck. All of it.

[The Wise One]

Houston has made a lot of trades. Which one has helped their long term future? Inactivity is better than siphoning off your talent for little return.

[HitInAPinch]

 

Sort of true. We have access to a lot of the same data. It's how creative you are with that data. But you can also explore projects outside of the scope of statistics to create new data and new understandings.

 

 

Yet they did nothing to build for the future. And that's disappointing.

I would argue this statement isn't true. We may not have done obvious things that build for the future but our eye has been on building for the future. Understandably as a fan you won't really want to hear this, but creating and developing the culture is the foundation. As you build that out then you can make roster moves you would like to see. The Cubs, Astros, Cardinals, etc. have all started with the culture first. Unfortunately for fans that isn't what they want to see or hear. But it's very important.

Thanks, Jack, for you inside view! 

 

Really wish I would have quoted all 3 posts.....

[AlwaysinModeration]

They likely have a spreadsheet in their hands with their value of every player in the league, and had it before they started with the Twins.

 

Provided by the Twins analytics department.

Thanks for dropping in, Jack. Congrats on the promotion, things seem to be looking up with the new management for the analytics department.

 

When you say your department handed them a spreadsheet with their valuation of every team in the league, my question is this: how much input into that spreadsheet did Derek and Thad have? Did they heavily weigh in on what numbers to emphasize?

 

Secondly, what is your opinion of, ahem, Yadier Alvarez, as, say, I don't know, a secondary piece in a hypothetical Dodgers / Dozier trade?

[AlwaysinModeration]

I would argue this statement isn't true. We may not have done obvious things that build for the future but our eye has been on building for the future. Understandably as a fan you won't really want to hear this, but creating and developing the culture is the foundation. As you build that out then you can make roster moves you would like to see. The Cubs, Astros, Cardinals, etc. have all started with the culture first. Unfortunately for fans that isn't what they want to see or hear. But it's very important.

Good. Great answer. My follow up - can you clarify whether this groundwork-setting cultural change started with the arrival of Falvey and Levine, or are you describing a process that began before that?

 

Second, my perception is that Falvey may have some creative ideas to organizational development of the pitching and systemic approaches for improving pitching that he in part brings with him from the Indians organization. Does that perception match reality?

[Platoon]

I have 6 accounts. I roll a die before every post to see which personality I use....

Since your technique is eerily similar to the way the current Twins manager makes out his lineup, is it possible you are in real life a former MLB AllStar, currently mis-employed in the Target Field home dugout?

[Han Joelo]

Per Goin's "Culture" comments:

 

If I have disappointment, it is only because moves are fun.  Change is exciting.  But the lack of moves is sometimes the greatest movement.  As the Sphinx said in Mystery Men, "only when standing still can you move forward."

 

It seems like clear expectations are being set.  Players (and managers) that show up ready to embrace that challenge will stick.  Particularly in the bullpen --  there is a clear message to that group of Chargois, Reed, et al, that positions are wide open.  Show up ready and claim your spot.  The May and Sano articles in the Trib also speak to that culture -- young guys aren't getting moved around or blocked altogether this offseason.

 

And, while I've been a little disappointed that the Twins haven't signed one of the many relatively cheap reclamation projects (Holland being the latest), I guess maybe they consider Perkins to be in the same category.

[Riverbrian]

 

I would argue this statement isn't true. We may not have done obvious things that build for the future but our eye has been on building for the future. Understandably as a fan you won't really want to hear this, but creating and developing the culture is the foundation. As you build that out then you can make roster moves you would like to see. The Cubs, Astros, Cardinals, etc. have all started with the culture first. Unfortunately for fans that isn't what they want to see or hear. But it's very important.

 

It's extremely important no matter what industry but culture change comes at very slow painful increments. 

 

I have no way of knowing but I assume that Falvey/Levine are most likely in the assessment of the current culture phase. Providing new tools/ideas/change for the current culture to adjust to and evaluating the adjustment. 

 

I have no way of knowing but I assume that.signing Jason Castro with his pitch framing ability is one example of providing new tools for our pitchers... The new tool of pitch framing. Let's see how the pitchers adjust to the extra strike calls they get from Castro and I'm sure there are examples of similar change introduced in the offices as well. 

 

Change in the offices and on the field from the Janitors to Joe Mauer will take awhile and it's why I wish that Derek Falvey would have been brought in right away instead of waiting for the season to conclude. 

 

You'd be further along with less distraction this off-season. 

 

Go get Em Jack.

 

I'm doing my part by supporting the Twins as hard as I can. 

 

 

 

[Doomtints]

 

They likely have a spreadsheet in their hands with their value of every player in the league, and had it before they started with the Twins.

Provided by the Twins analytics department.

 

Thanks for clarifying that the lack of moves wasn't because leadership simply did not know anything yet. That idea was ludicrous.

 

It's nice to see that the Twins are working on organizational culture. I did not realize the internal culture had become so bad. From the outside it certainly seemed like it was a pleasant place to work.

 

I would offer the idea that you can build a culture while making moves, though. There are always a lot of plans in motion with any organization. I'm not saying that people did not make an effort, mind you, it would have just been nice to see a step forward.

[Jack Goin]

 

 

It's nice to see that the Twins are working on organizational culture. I did not realize the internal culture had become so bad. From the outside it certainly seemed like it was a pleasant place to work.

 

I would offer the idea that you can build a culture while making moves, though. There are always a lot of plans in motion with any organization. I'm not saying that people did not make an effort, mind you, it would have just been nice to see a step forward.

I didn't say it was a bad place to work. It is a wonderful place to work. Terry was a tremendous boss and we have wonderful people to work with. People who have been able to remain and Derek & Thad are also top-notch. They wouldn't be here if they weren't at that level. The culture I'm talking about is changing what we emphasize. Derek and Thad have a vision of how a Major League organization should operate and they will need time to implement it. It isn't too different from what we've been. It just needs to be fine-tuned. Please don't take that to mean it's a bad place to work. Not at all.