Twins Interested in Jose Bautista?

[Riverbrian]

 

Yes, and we won 83 games in 2015 because of Hunter.  I keep forgetting that.

 

Isn't TwinsDaily wonderful. 

 

The admins are also planning a "Where are my Car Keys Forum" down the road. 

[Riverbrian]

If the Twins sign Bautista. 

 

It will prove that it was Terry Ryan unwilling to spend and not Pohlad being unwilling to spend. 

 

I'd like that question answered once and for all. 

 

If the Twins don't sign Bautista... we still won't know who was responsible. 

 

It's worth a draft pick and 17 million dollars to find out. 

[twinsnorth49]

If you want to see the pool being reduced, head to any one of the Dozier threads. .

[gunnarthor]

I'm not going to be upset either way, but it's likely only a 2nd round pick in name only. With their pool they could sign another first rounder who only fell because other teams couldn't meet his asking price. Like Lance McCullers, Joey Wentz, Sean Manea or Daz Cameron.

The Twins still have a second pick in the comp A round. I'm OK either way, but a strong offense would be fun and adding a big FA would be new.

[Rosterman]

Send Byung-Ho back to the minors, send Vargas on his way, and go ahead and pay $15 or so million for one year of a guy to help fire up the offense, play DH, and help the youngsters. WHy not. They got the money. 

[Physics Guy]

Kennys Vargas had a better OPS last year than Bautista and I MIGHT argue that he has a better chance of improving his than Bautista.    I might also be terribly wrong, but I want to find out.    Figure out how to maximize your use of Mauer, Vargas and Park at 1B and DH and leave Rosario in LF.    I would rather find out if Rosario, Park and Vargas have a chance at helping us in the future. 

[Eduardo Nunez's Helmet]

Joey Bats and Joey Slaps on the same team? Think of how they could market that! Do it, DF!

[BuxtonBandwagon]

Yes, and we won 83 games in 2015 because of Hunter.  I keep forgetting that.

Look at this

2007 Angels(pre Hunter) 94 wins, 2008 Angels (with Hunter) 100 wins

2012 Angels(with Hunter) 89 wins, 2013 Angels(w/o Hunter) 78 wins

2012 Tigers(pre hunter) 88 wins, 2013 Tigers (with Hunter) 93 wins

2014 Tigers(with Hunter) 90 wins, 2015 Tigers (w/o Hunter) 74 wins

2014 Twins 70 wins, 2016 Twins 59 wins, Sandwich 2015 with Hunter in there and there's 83 wins.

 

Torii Hunter, actually worth at the very worst worth 5 wins. How's that for "WAR"?

I'd pay that guy 15 mill if his leadership and clubhouse presence had us a game out for a playoff spot the final weekend again.

[gunnarthor]

 

Look at this
2007 Angels(pre Hunter) 94 wins, 2008 Angels (with Hunter) 100 wins
2012 Angels(with Hunter) 89 wins, 2013 Angels(w/o Hunter) 78 wins
2012 Tigers(pre hunter) 88 wins, 2013 Tigers (with Hunter) 93 wins
2014 Tigers(with Hunter) 90 wins, 2015 Tigers (w/o Hunter) 74 wins
2014 Twins 70 wins, 2016 Twins 59 wins, Sandwich 2015 with Hunter in there and there's 83 wins.

Torii Hunter, actually worth at the very worst worth 5 wins. How's that for "WAR"?
I'd pay that guy 15 mill if his leadership and clubhouse presence had us a game out for a playoff spot the final weekend again.

Some people like Hunter, some don't.  I love nearly everything about the guy, actually.  Those that don't like him tend to dismiss things they can't measure - on the field, anyway.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Is it the 2nd round pick, or is it the comp round pick the team gives up?

 

It would be the comp "round A" pick (rule is, we forfeit our next highest pick after the protected top 10). Not a huge difference, something like #35 vs #37 overall.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

 

I dont understand why you would want to keep Dozier at leadoff.  Why not put Mauer, who still gets on base at a very good rate and sees a lot of pitches, ahead of him?  Mauer had a .363 obp which ranked the 2nd highest on the team and averaged over 4 pitches per plate appearance.

No matter where they bat in the batting order, I may want to bat Buxton after Mauer to give Buxton plenty of pitches to steal second base and third base.

[jimmer]

 

Look at this
2007 Angels(pre Hunter) 94 wins, 2008 Angels (with Hunter) 100 wins
2012 Angels(with Hunter) 89 wins, 2013 Angels(w/o Hunter) 78 wins
2012 Tigers(pre hunter) 88 wins, 2013 Tigers (with Hunter) 93 wins
2014 Tigers(with Hunter) 90 wins, 2015 Tigers (w/o Hunter) 74 wins
2014 Twins 70 wins, 2016 Twins 59 wins, Sandwich 2015 with Hunter in there and there's 83 wins.

Torii Hunter, actually worth at the very worst worth 5 wins. How's that for "WAR"?
I'd pay that guy 15 mill if his leadership and clubhouse presence had us a game out for a playoff spot the final weekend again.

Some people believe in the whole certain veterans make teams play much better thing. It's a great baseball story. It's what's been taught from generation to generation and is usually reserved for players loved by fans who aren't actually doing much on the field any more (comparative to others at their positions). It's poetic really.  It's one of the many passed down beliefs that make people love the game.

 

However, baseball is, most of the time, a game of individual battles  Pitcher against batter, batter against pitcher, fielder on his own fielding a ball, etc. I see zero reason to believe a veteran outfielder would make pitchers pitch better, infielders field better etc.  We had great sequencing on offense in 2015, that helped us win games by us scoring more runs than the rest of our offensive numbers suggested we should have.  In other words, runs scored made our offense look better than it actually was.  Timing/sequencing was key, but did a veteran's presence cause that?  Our pitching also, was better. But can we really lay that at the hands of one veteran osition player and say he is why all that happened?

 

Did Hunter's influence help the team overall?  Probably. But we had one great month, we didn't consistently play good ball so if that influence was so strong that it made the team much better, why wouldn't we just have played better the whole season (and I don't mean play as well as we did in May). This year I doubt we went from 83 wins to 59 due to losing Hunter just like I doubt we got 13 wins better just by adding the beloved veteran. What, did the players somehow forget everything Hunter showed them that made them win in 2015?

 

The examples you gave are examples of the logical fallacy Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. In this case, it's easier to believe because of how we were taught the game and it gets carried on by retired players talking sports on air.  

[USAFChief]

Some people believe in the whole certain veterans make teams play much better thing. It's a great baseball story. It's what's been taught from generation to generation and is usually reserved for players loved by fans who aren't actually doing much on the field any more (comparative to others at their positions). It's poetic really. It's one of the many passed down beliefs that make people love the game.

 

However, baseball is, most of the time, a game of individual battles Pitcher against batter, batter against pitcher, fielder on his own fielding a ball, etc. I see zero reason to believe a veteran outfielder would make pitchers pitch better, infielders field better etc. We had great sequencing on offense in 2015, that helped us win games by us scoring more runs than the rest of our offensive numbers suggested we should have. In other words, runs scored made our offense look better than it actually was. Timing/sequencing was key, but did a veteran's presence cause that? Our pitching also, was better. But can we really lay that at the hands of one veteran osition player and say he is why all that happened?

 

Did Hunter's influence help the team overall? Probably. But we had one great month, we didn't consistently play good ball so if that influence was so strong that it made the team much better, why wouldn't we just have played better the whole season (and I don't mean play as well as we did in May). This year I doubt we went from 83 wins to 59 due to losing Hunter just like I doubt we got 13 wins better just by adding the beloved veteran. What, did the players somehow forget everything Hunter showed them that made them win in 2015?

 

The examples you gave are examples of the logical fallacy Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. In this case, it's easier to believe because of how we were taught the game and it gets carried on by retired players talking sports on air.

I can only speak for myself, but this is what I believe:

 

- Leadership has been an important component in the success or failure of every team I've been on my entire life. In and out of sports. I can't conceive a reason why baseball should be different.

 

- Not everything that can be measured is important, and not everything that is important can be measured.

[jimmer]

 

I can only speak for myself, but this is what I believe:

- Leadership has been an important component in the success or failure of every team I've been on my entire life. In and out of sports. I can't conceive a reason why baseball should be different.

- Everything that can be measured isn't important, and not everything that is important can be measured.

And I never said it doesn't have an effect.  Not once. Leadership counts. I grant that a quality veteran leader could make a difference of a couple games.  At least, I hope that's the case. And by all accounts, Hunter was/is one of those guys.

 

My issue is when one player is given credit for a 10-20 win swing by his mere presence (or lack of presence).  And if teams believed in that kind of ability, he'd be playing this year after getting huge offers he couldn't refuse and/or he would have signed a multiple year contract worth big bucks in 2015 instead of a one year contract with us for 10M.  His agent would be out saying things like, look, the Twins won 70 in 2014 and then Hunter joined and then won 83 and now they won 59.  Look at all that value his presence on a team provides, this guy deserves TONS of money, even if his actual skills have greatly diminished being in his 40s now and all.

[gunnarthor]

My understanding was that the Twins were more than willing to bring Hunter back at nearly the same salary.  Playing time was the issue and when he realized that he wasn't a fulltime player anymore, he retired.  Teams have been paying for unmeasurable things - fan appeal, veteran leadership, catch framing - for years.  I don't see why we have to have the constant "Hunter helped/didn't help" every off season.  

 

Let's focus on the things that matter like how Mauer's contract is an albatross dragging this team down to the bottom of the standings until he starts catching again.

[Seth Stohs]

Per LaVelle... calm down on the Bautista rumors... 

 

 

 

Per Doogie - right now on 1500 ESPN... the Twins haven't had a meaningful discussion with Bautista's people, and probably won't. 

[jimmer]

 

Per LaVelle... calm down on the Bautista rumors... 

 

 

 

Per Doogie - right now on 1500 ESPN... the Twins haven't had a meaningful discussion with Bautista's people, and probably won't. 

I'd hope most people would have realized all this without Neal letting us know :-)

[gunnarthor]

 

Per LaVelle... calm down on the Bautista rumors... 

 

 

 

Per Doogie - right now on 1500 ESPN... the Twins haven't had a meaningful discussion with Bautista's people, and probably won't. 

http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/vader.jpg

[Thrylos]

 

I can only speak for myself, but this is what I believe:

- Leadership has been an important component in the success or failure of every team I've been on my entire life. In and out of sports. I can't conceive a reason why baseball should be different.

 

Concur.  

 

So, how do you feel about the Twins bringing back all the "leaders" from the 2016 103 L team, which is exactly what they are doing?

[USAFChief]

 

Concur.  

 

So, how do you feel about the Twins bringing back all the "leaders" from the 2016 103 L team, which is exactly what they are doing?

As I've stated previously, I'll be very disappointed if Castro is the only major roster change coming out of spring training.

 

 

[JustinCB]

 

Look at this
2007 Angels(pre Hunter) 94 wins, 2008 Angels (with Hunter) 100 wins
2012 Angels(with Hunter) 89 wins, 2013 Angels(w/o Hunter) 78 wins
2012 Tigers(pre hunter) 88 wins, 2013 Tigers (with Hunter) 93 wins
2014 Tigers(with Hunter) 90 wins, 2015 Tigers (w/o Hunter) 74 wins
2014 Twins 70 wins, 2016 Twins 59 wins, Sandwich 2015 with Hunter in there and there's 83 wins.

Torii Hunter, actually worth at the very worst worth 5 wins. How's that for "WAR"?
I'd pay that guy 15 mill if his leadership and clubhouse presence had us a game out for a playoff spot the final weekend again.

This is not a good argument.

[lukeduke1980]

 

Per LaVelle... calm down on the Bautista rumors... 

 

 

 

Per Doogie - right now on 1500 ESPN... the Twins haven't had a meaningful discussion with Bautista's people, and probably won't. 

Sorry but the Ryan Vogelsong signing isn't exactly fueling the hot stove...

[BuxtonBandwagon]

This is not a good argument.

It's just proof that teams he play for win with him and struggle without him. Leadership is huge in sports obviously and Torii hunter is one of the best leaders in baseball. Obviously there's many other factors that go into it but find me a player that has improved teams liked this.

[Mike Sixel]

Would people really trade Berrios for one year of a DH? Wow.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

2/3rds of a year of entertainment from Bautista for a 2nd round pick that could very well never be more of a prospect than the one we can get by flipping Jose.

 

Meh, why not. But only if we agree to stop calling him Joey Bats, ffs.

If the Twins didn't have the first pick, I'd agree.

 

But that second round pick is roughly the equivalent of the pick that got them Jose Berrios. It's not something you hand away without pause.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Would people really trade Berrios for one year of a DH? Wow.

Heh.

[USAFChief]

Would people really trade Berrios for one year of a DH? Wow.

Would people really not trade Tag Bozied for Jose Bautista? Wow.

[Mike Sixel]

Would people really not trade Tag Bozied for Jose Bautista? Wow.

So you don't trust the twins scouts? One year of a DH, on a 59 win team, In exchange for a chance at long term help? Pass

[Vanimal46]

 

So you don't trust the twins scouts? One year of a DH, on a 59 win team, In exchange for a chance at long term help? Pass

It's easy to talk yourself out of a deal when you put a name towards the draft pick.... That's part of the gamble. Will Bautista make more of an impact than the 2nd round pick? Absolutely. There's also the chance to flip him for a compatible prospect you could get in the 2nd round.... 

[Vanimal46]

 

Would people really not trade Tag Bozied for Jose Bautista? Wow.

Would they also not trade Jeff Kobemus for Bautista? You know, Jeff Kobemus? 2009 2-1 draft pick? 

Who could also forget Sammy Solis? 2010 2-1 draft pick. He's a guy I'd hold on to for sure.