When do you fire a manager?

[nicksaviking]

 

I think Molitor probably needs to go but I don't see a point in doing it right now.

 

The goal should be to get two new front office voices - president and GM - and let them make the decision about Molitor.

 

Normally I'd agree as I can't see the next GM keeping any of the current group so a move would be pointless.

 

But Gene Glynn seems like he would be a legit managerial candidate (just not here) and a very respected man. If I knew a house cleaning was coming and I didn't pin any of the current disaster on Glynn, I might let Molitor go just so Glynn could audition for future jobs around the league.

 

This is based on courtesy clearly, not strategy.

[Rosterman]

 

Possible, not plausible imo. In some respects, firing Mollie at this stage might allow some players the excuse of "see, it was him, not us".

There is just sooooooo much going wrong.

 

As a young player, you have to fit into the team structure, which is the lineup, bench, bullpen or rotation. Players feed off of each other. The construction of the playing roster in consultation with the contruction of the overall roster with the G.M. is on the head of the manager. The coaches are there to spot problems and work with players and sit down and review film and answer questions and then seek out advice from others for the players, bringing it all together...under the guidance of the field manager.

 

I was looking at the bullpen. We have no long guys. And a couple being overworked (Tonkin, Pressly). Even the other day where Kintzler ended the 8th, pitched the 9th, then started the 10th -- because there was no one else to pitch...all bodies had been destroyed in the Jays series. Where is the guy that can take a hit for 3-4 innings (think Swarzak, or even Johann when he was first called up).

 

Can someone explain to me why the guy hitting 30 homers is batting leadoff?

 

If we are only getting a couple of innings out of Dean and Albers (and Duffey) then, when he comes back, we might as well have May start starting.

 

We seem to be producing decent overall results in the minors with the different minor league managers and coaches. But something happens when the players come to the majors. Our Rochester team has been fabulous the past seasons, and any rookies get the exposure of playing with guys who have had small stints in the majors and know the clubhouse atmosphere that must be a part of things. Players are sent down to the minors and seem to flourish (except Arcia last year, and Murphy this year).

 

And you do see results. Players like Rosario and Kepler seem to be working harder than ever to meet the challenges that major league ball brings to a player. they have downs and ups and downs again. That is something you like to see. Even Danny Santana, the man without a position who plays everyday, seems to be working hard. Can't wait to see what happens when Vargas returns, a guy who needs to continue to produce because he does have a major league roster spot waiting for him next season with the Twins or is made valuable as a trading piece, yet if he fails he becomes...Chris Parmelee.

 

Wait until the off-season to make a change?

 

Nay, Nay. If it is going to happen, do it now. Elevate Gene Glynn for the moment. When the minor league season ends, bring up a couple of the coaches who have worked with the newbees (Allen, Watkins, Cliburn, Artega) and see if they can keep the action going positive rather than negative.

 

And please, please, please...even if not using them as regulars, bring up any and all 40-man guys and possible players to fit into the mix not in the playoffs or going to Arizona. Major league money opens eyes. Just riding the bench opens eyes. And it isn't like we need to give playing time to some guys who won't be on the 40-man come November, or even a minor league player in 2017.

 

Looks like we will have Plouffe back, though, in 2017. Considering that he will be a free agent in 2018...would you sign him longterm?

[ashbury]

Moderator's note: I have removed from view several posts that were no longer about the topic at hand and merely were sniping at other posters. Debunk and rebut what you think is incorrect, or move on.

[twinsnorth49]

I'm not sure your scenario of Molitor sticking it out another 30 games and then walking away is any different in this regard.

 

/ edit - in any case, firing Molitor at this stage is completely moot. Rob Antony is the acting GM and he would not have his boss's backing to make such a move.

I don't think Molitor resigning gives the players the same excuse.

 

My hope is that after the season a decision is made quickly and a whole lot of players feel very uncomfortable about their futures with new management coming in after this gong show of a season.

[dxpavelka]

 

It's hard to tell how much of it is the manager when we're giving up 10 runs a game.

One of  the best arms on the team is injured, quite possibly from a second season toiling as a reliever on a team without 5 better starters.  That IS on the manager.

[Guest]

 

I was looking at the bullpen. We have no long guys. And a couple being overworked (Tonkin, Pressly). Even the other day where Kintzler ended the 8th, pitched the 9th, then started the 10th -- because there was no one else to pitch...all bodies had been destroyed in the Jays series. Where is the guy that can take a hit for 3-4 innings (think Swarzak, or even Johann when he was first called up).

 

Can someone explain to me why the guy hitting 30 homers is batting leadoff?

Going to defend Molitor a little.

 

Paragraph 1: the long guys should be Dean and Albers. Other than Wimmers, who else would it be? For whatever reason, they are now 2/5 of the starting rotation. Maybe Milone will be a long guy in September. Also, although I did not like the amount of pitches Kintzler threw, the reason is within your paragraph. It's hard to rip Molitor for not doing the impossible.

 

Paragraph 2: this is a trend among forward-thinking managers, which analytics recommends. Another team doing this is Toronto, where Bautista bats #1 and Donaldson bats #2. It's way better than the Gardy era, when someone with "bat control" would bat second, because that's what tradition said to do, even though the person would be a bad hitter.

[Guest]

One of  the best arms on the team is injured, quite possibly from a second season toiling as a reliever on a team without 5 better starters.  That IS on the manager.

Actually, it's on the former GM, who went from "dear" and "beloved" to "dearly beloved" in just a few months.

 

Also, although I like May and agree that he could be better than most of the pitchers getting starts this year, my guess is that his head wasn't into relieving this year long before he got injured, and he never demonstrated that he deserved to be considered a good pitcher this year. Again, not Molitor.

 

For clarity: I believe Molitor should be done sometime within the next 40 days. It just seems that some of the rips should be directed elsewhere or are events where it appears he's going to be blamed no matter what he does.

[dxpavelka]

 

Actually, it's on the former GM, who went from "dear" and "beloved" to "dearly beloved" in just a few months.

Also, although I like May and agree that he could be better than most of the pitchers getting starts this year, my guess is that his head wasn't into relieving this year long before he got injured, and he never demonstrated that he deserved to be considered a good pitcher this year. Again, not Molitor.

For clarity: I believe Molitor should be done sometime within the next 40 days. It just seems that some of the rips should be directed elsewhere or are events where it appears he's going to be blamed no matter what he does.

Ryan should have been fired for the two decisions of moving Sano to RF and May to the bullpen alone.  If Molitor was complicit in those decisions and not just following orders he should already have been fired as well.

[Guest]

Ryan should have been fired for the two decisions of moving Sano to RF and May to the bullpen alone.  If Molitor was complicit in those decisions and not just following orders he should already have been fired as well.

You might be right about Ryan; those were head-scratchers at the time (Pelfrey in the rotation instead of May?) and did not work out well.

 

On a related note, I've been wondering lately whether Billy Beane has done a worse job. At least Ryan didn't trade Josh Donaldson and Addison Russell.

[jimmer]

Every FO makes bad calls here and there.  None of them get it right 100% of the time.  Is letting Ortiz go for nothing better or worse than the Oakland FO trading Donaldson? 

 

P.S., I picked Donaldson to be AL MVP prior to the 2015 season starting :-)

[jimmer]

This just in, Carlos Correa is still awesome!

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

This just in, Carlos Correa is still awesome!

 

Idiots, passing on Buxton and signing those others......remember that conversation? 

[jimmer]

 

Idiots, passing on Buxton and signing those others......remember that conversation? 

I remember thinking Buxton played against weak competition in high school and I was burnt out on us drafting toolsy high school CFs.

[wsnydes]

 

Well,  you should probably not hire someone to be a manager who has zero experience in the first place......

 

My issues with Molitor are these:

 

1. The fundamentals are brutal. If he and the coaches can't improve that, then why bother having coaches at all?

2. The bullpen usage seems off to me.

3. Sacrifice bunting before inning 8......just plain bad strategy.

4. His love of Danny Santana, who plays more than any other 25th man in the history of the game.

4a. His apparent disdain for other young players in their first taste of the majors.

5. I don't see growth. All of the issues you see that you didn't like last year? They are still there this year.

Reasons 1,2, and 5 are the top 3 reasons for why this team is where it is, IMHO.  It has less to do with what he was given than what he's done with what he was given to work with.  A manager can only control that much.  The fact that the fundamentals started off bad and seemed to actually regress isn't a good sign.  The fact that few of the young guys come up and succeed isn't a good sign.  That doesn't even take into account that many aren't even given chances to play, let alone succeed initially.  Buxton and Berrios are past the point where AAA should be helpful, yet they flounder at the big league level.  There's a disconnect there other than it's simply better competition.  That has me looking at how they're being coached up and prepared at the major league level.  The handling of the bullpen is questionable at best.  It's no wonder so many of them go on the DL or burn out in the 2nd half of these seasons.  Yes, it has some to do with the starters inability to go deeper into games, but Molitor leans on guys too much too often.

[goulik]

I wouldn't consider firing Molitor unless we go on an extended losing streak and it seems like the young guys on the team are nose diving at the end of the season instead of making progress

[jimmer]

 

I wouldn't consider firing Molitor unless we go on an extended losing streak and it seems like the young guys on the team are nose diving at the end of the season instead of making progress

Check and um, check ;-)

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Every FO makes bad calls here and there.  None of them get it right 100% of the time.  Is letting Ortiz go for nothing better or worse than the Oakland FO trading Donaldson? 

The Donaldson trade was by no means good, but Graveman has been a competent SP and Franklin Barretto appears to be an asset.  #46 prospect at MLB, although he's slipped a bit from his preseason #23 rank.

 

Of course, Donaldson was a lot better at the time of the trade than Ortiz when he was let go, so...

[d-mac]

 

I wouldn't consider firing Molitor unless we go on an extended losing streak and it seems like the young guys on the team are nose diving at the end of the season instead of making progress

 

You mean like now?

[Pardon My Dinger]

On a Friday. 

 

[d-mac]

At this point I don't think it matters much when to fire Molitor. To be perfectly honest I hope it happens sooner rather than later. I think much of the major league coaching staff is detrimental to a lot of the younger players. 

[Rosterman]

 

Every FO makes bad calls here and there.  None of them get it right 100% of the time.  Is letting Ortiz go for nothing better or worse than the Oakland FO trading Donaldson? 

 

P.S., I picked Donaldson to be AL MVP prior to the 2015 season starting :-)

With Beane, it is all about getting future pieces to replace soon to be expensive pieces. It's a gamble he takes and often does well. Knowing when you part with someone who may become a superstar to building your team for consistent play. Which is strange why he still stays in a marketplace with tighter purse strings. Would be curious to see if he would shine in a major major market, although his style (like Ryan's) may be passe now. 

 

He tries to put a competitive team on the field every year (which the Twins do) and although he pays lip service to winning, if it happens it is because of a factor of prospects hitting correctly at the same time, or someone obtained having the year of their life, and the team functioning as a whole. I do wonder about being a part of the A's clubhouse where it seems you might be traded on...a whim, so to speak.

 

In some ways, the Twins were the closest to a Beane team. It seemed, on the whole, we were happy to be competitive and in the hunt. We can complain all we want about being bridesmaids and keep and kep bringing up we have two world championships to some teams not having any. We have a streak of winning seasons and playoff attempts. Some players shine and move on when they want to try and be superstars, others are content to play the game well (or the Twins Way). 

 

The killer is four of the last five seasons, now. Joe Mauer and the Twins brings abck memories of, say, Ernie Banks and the Cubs. And even that personality glimmer is fading.

 

Our minor league teams do seem to be competitive against other minor league teams. Players do excel. But there is sometihng here not right. We have (had) a strong rotation...maybe no Jack Morris or Bert Blyleven, but guys who should know their stuff and give us innings. We have a decent offense, but do we have too much of something (strikeouts) and not enough of something else (moving runners, ball in play, walks). That's on the current field staff, not the minors. And that's on upper management for going after and getting players that don't give the field staff a way to truly play baseball.

 

Just go back and cringe at how bad Guardado, Hawkins, Perkins and others were when they first came up. Look at Morneau at age 22, then again at age 24 where we wondered. Youth needs to play, to experience, be tweaked, and at some point ALL the guys come together for one brief magic season, and if you play your players right you might get a decent run, especially if you have lots of great drafts (looks at the Braves and their nice run after some bad seasons).

 

Can anyone share the magic they saw from our field staff last season, what went right to put the team a tad above .500 play that isn't happening this year? I didn't expect the total falldown of this season after last season, but I didn't expect us to be at the total top (or I saw a division that was pretty equal, maybe ten games separating top from bottom). But what derailled from 2015 in 2016.

 

 

[mdonaghue]

The folks who are writing that the President gets hired, then a GM, then a Manager have it right.  That President-GM team need to define club strategic vision, then put the management team in place to execute it.

 

What most of the comments are missing is what should be done in the minors.  It is surprising how many top young players come up and look completely lost when they make it.  Is part of the problem what they are doing down on the farm?  Or is part of the problem bouncing them back and forth or shifting them between positions?

[goulik]

 

The folks who are writing that the President gets hired, then a GM, then a Manager have it right.  That President-GM team need to define club strategic vision, then put the management team in place to execute it.

 

What most of the comments are missing is what should be done in the minors.  It is surprising how many top young players come up and look completely lost when they make it.  Is part of the problem what they are doing down on the farm?  Or is part of the problem bouncing them back and forth or shifting them between positions?

It takes more than one part to make a whole so, Yes. Part of the problem may be the farm system but there are parts of that farm system that are consistently good too.  I believe when players get to AA, AAA, and MLB, we should already have a REALLY good handle on who these players are and where they should be playing. I do not understand the moving the pieces around at the higher levels after success at lower levels philosophy that has occurred too much the past few seasons. But that is just my amatuer, never played in the minors or majors view.

[wsnydes]

 

On a Friday. 

We've found it's best to let people go on a Friday.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Every FO makes bad calls here and there.  None of them get it right 100% of the time.  Is letting Ortiz go for nothing better or worse than the Oakland FO trading Donaldson?

I'd say neither is really better or worse but one of them happened 15 years ago while the other happened less than two years ago.

 

This board would be losing its **** - and rightly so - had Ryan traded Miguel Sano and he was posting MVP numbers somewhere else.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'd say neither is really better or worse but one of them happened 15 years ago while the other happened less than two years ago.

 

This board would be losing its **** - and rightly so - had Ryan traded Miguel Sano and he was posting MVP numbers somewhere else.

 

Agreed and people should go back and read that Donaldson thread.  There are some whoppers in there.  As in, you should change your avatar to someone with a paper bag over their head bad.

 

Some of the criticism here on the GM and the manager is based on perception.  We hammer people we've already decided aren't good enough at their job and not on the merit of the move or the totality of the situation.  And, likewise, we defer to the wisdom of people like Beane no matter what the deal itself looks like.  That should be something we endeavor to avoid.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Agreed and people should go back and read that Donaldson thread.  There are some whoppers in there.  As in, you should change your avatar to someone with a paper bag over their head bad.

 

Some of the criticism here on the GM and the manager is based on perception.  We hammer people we've already decided aren't good enough at their job and not on the merit of the move or the totality of the situation.  And, likewise, we defer to the wisdom of people like Beane no matter what the deal itself looks like.  That should be something we endeavor to avoid.

I just found and read the Donaldson thread.

 

It was painful.

 

 

[HitInAPinch]

This is what happens when your team consists of young players, has beens and never was's.

 

Damn, there was a quote similar to that, in Bull Durham and I can't find it.  I'll use this one:

 

Annie Savoy: There's never been a ballplayer slept with me who didn't have the best year of his career.

 

Annie Savoy for new Twins Manager !!!

[Teflon]

There have been 54 in-season managerial changes in the Major Leagues since the year 2000. The average number of games managed by the initial managers is 81 and their average winning percentage at the time they were replaced was .401. (1880 wins, 2511 losses)

 

The manager replaced the earliest in a season since 2000 was Phil Garner who was replaced 6 games into the 2002 season by the TIgers after starting 0-6. (The TIgers GM, Randy Smith was also fired) Garner had managed the Tigers in 2000 and 2001. You can read more about that here.

 

The manager replaced the latest in a season since 2000 was Larry Bowa of the Phillies who was fired with only 2 games remaining in the season in 2004 despite the team having an 85-75 record and being in 2nd place in the NL East. Reports were that the Phillies players pretty much hated Bowa. Good article on that here.

 

On average, the Twins have done their in-season managerial replacements 76 games in and at .427 winning percentages. The earlies in-season replacement was Johnny Goryl after 37 games in 1981 (11-25) while the latest change in a season was Ray Miller went 59-80 in 139 games in 1986.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I just found and read the Donaldson thread.

 

It was painful.

 

How stupid was I?