Have the Twins Been Getting Beaten by Cheaters?

I was talking to a guy that knows a bit about this, he was a catcher in the minor leagues, and he thinks stealing signs the traditional way is part of the game, but electronic sign stealing is a bridge too far.

Which I agree with.

Probably mostly bitterness, but during our latest Yankees humiliation I thought many times the Yankees knew what was coming. Watching them spit on good 2 strike pitches an inch off the zone over and over is enough to drive a guy nuts.

I assume the Twins were being reasonably cautious and switching up signs all the time, but has anyone gone back and checked?

Is stealing signs the old fashioned way, ie, a runner on second signals the hitter, legal?  I would think it should be. 

But doing it with video/technology must be eliminated from the game.  This type of severe penalty should be a big step towards doing that.  Not only will the loss of two top draft picks hurt the Astros, but will help every other team as two players who would have been gone when they pick in every round after the second will now be available.

So Beltran and other players who participated will not be punished. Boston, other than Cora, nothing. Crane's Asstros lose 4 draft picks and 5 mil. That's an easy incentive to cheat. This destroys the integrity of the game. Personally this could signal my walking away from this game.

Is stealing signs the old fashioned way, ie, a runner on second signals the hitter, legal?  I would think it should be. 

 

But doing it with video/technology must be eliminated from the game.  This type of severe penalty should be a big step towards doing that.  Not only will the loss of two top draft picks hurt the Astros, but will help every other team as two players who would have been gone when they pick in every round after the second will now be available.

I believe there has been an explicit ban on electronic sign stealing for quite a while, which I believe factored into the harsh penalties levied against Houston.

In looking at Logan Morrison's accusation, meh.

If the teams listed were using electronics to pick up signs, I'm not sure I care, because it doesn't appear it was being used in real time, unlike what Houston was doing.

Sports Illustrated had this tidbit indicating that at least 8 teams might have been guilty of this.

In the kind of informational archeology reminiscent of The Steroid Era, baseball is learning what happens when “gaining an edge” pushes into new frontiers. Two sources familiar with the investigation, which lasted three months and included more than 70,000 e-mails and 60 interviews, said various Astros personnel told MLB investigators about eight other teams who used technology to steal signs in 2017 or 2018–such was the culture of the time.

This reminds me of the Pineda pine tar incident where it was so painfully obvious that the league had no choice but to oppose it.  They were probably telling him couldn't you just put it in your glove like everyone else.

I absolutely believe this cheating on par with PEDs. To know what pitch is coming is a huge advantage

So Beltran and other players who participated will not be punished. Boston, other than Cora, nothing. Crane's Asstros lose 4 draft picks and 5 mil. That's an easy incentive to cheat. This destroys the integrity of the game. Personally this could signal my walking away from this game.

Well, that shoe may be yet to drop, but in light of the evidence given so far, Cora and Beltran both need to be spanked- hard. And both of them Mlb managers? No way those slimy dudes should walk, or get a slap on the wrist. We'll see.

At least, we know the Twins didn’t cheat. Because Minnesota teams always get caught when they cheat (Joe Smith, Tice tickets, Gophers everything . . .)

So Beltran and other players who participated will not be punished. Boston, other than Cora, nothing. Crane's Asstros lose 4 draft picks and 5 mil. That's an easy incentive to cheat. This destroys the integrity of the game. Personally this could signal my walking away from this game.

We probably need to let the investigations play out further for the Red Sox.  I agree with your allusion to the light punishment.  If Morrison is correct that this has been going on since 2014, then Luhnow should be receiving more than one year.  Looking at the staff, the only holdovers from 2014 to 2017 were Luhnow and then a couple of pitching coaches: Brent Strom and Craig Bjornson.

Maybe the league can get Bo Porter to shed a little light on this mess.  He was kicked to the curb just before the org started towards winning. Maybe there's a little vendetta there.

Porter was fired on Monday, September 1, 2014.

(less to do with the team's 59-79 record than the need for "new direction" and a "united message throughout the entire organization.)

I'm injecting, but perhaps Porter wasn't a fan of the "message" and wasn't willing to comply.  It seems Hinch wasn't a fan either, but he was willing to comply with the "united message".

It seems the Twins set the all time MLB HR record el natural....... Give them a banner to hang, what an accomplishment..... for the hitters. 

BTW, love the photo, Nick.

Maybe those 2017 rings should be "taken back".

No.

 

PED use was widespread, and lasted for more than a decade.

Let me clarify. I was referring to the advantage gained not how pervasive it is.

By the way, it still astounds me that knowing what pitch is coming is that much of an advantage for a hitter.

At least, we know the Twins didn’t cheat. Because Minnesota teams always get caught when they cheat (Joe Smith, Tice tickets, Gophers everything . . .)

Maybe the Twins are figuring out how to cheat more effectively than any other MN team. By having Rosario hitting 4th, swinging at everything, no one would assume the Twins are relaying signs to hitters. That is where Houston went wrong, you need to have at least one free swinger in the lineup to prevent suspicion.

(2) 1sts and (2) 2nds, 5 mil, GM & Mgr 1 yr suspensions for a World Series.

1. Above is a very light penalty.

2. $50 million penalty to the owner sends a signal to fix the cheat at all costs mentality.

3. Fine players caught in scandal. How about 50% of their salary?

4. Take away WS rings and team WS trophy.

5. Besides draft picks, no international signings over 100k for two years.

6. Two years suspensions for GM & Mgr

Did the Astros and Red Sox not know right from wrong?

You can cheat, get caught, and then keep your title? What? Like the 1997 Final Four Gophers, they should have their post-season appearances and any titles eliminated and struck from the record.

The 2017 Championship Astros banners (and possibly the 2018 Red Sox banners) should be taken down from the stadium and the titles should be vacated.

It's the quintessential Minnesota thing to assume that the reason your teams lose is because something unfair happened during the game/season...and that your team is never guilty of anything. As a life-long Minnesotan I can attest that there's nothing more Minnesotan than that. It's the way we remain so proud of all those division titles and playoff "appearances".

Would I rather finish 2nd honestly than in 1st dishonestly. 100%. But, let's not lose track of the fact that the Twins primary challenge over the last decade-plus has been both lack of commitment and lack of execution. Not external factors.