Are Comments About the Twins' Culture More a Reflection of Correa, or Rocco's Clubhouse?

[Aggies7]

2 minutes ago, Dman said:

It seems like we have this discussion every year.  When the team is doing great the culture is great.  When they aren't the culture is toxic. Before the deadline I remember Bader hitting a home run and getting hugs from teammates and high fives etc.is that a show of an uninspired team?  They pan the camera to the dugout and guys are chatting with each other smiling etc.is that display of bad culture?Just a week ago Keaschall was saying how much energy all the young guys were bringing and that is was a fun atmosphere.

Talent wins baseball games period.,  Culture is a nice talking point, but in the end means very little.  These are pro ball players fighting to stay relevant in the game the have trained their entire lives for.  Culture's not the problem.

Culture means nothing til you have none and you trade off almost half your team 

[LA Vikes Fan]

One of the things you learn running an organization is that it's very difficult to have a successful organization without accountability. But accountability isn't just about measuring results because results can be random and dependent on outside forces. Accountability is about effort and the discipline to focus that effort on the things most likely to make you and by extension the organization successful. Also, to work accountability has to come from within the organization and within the person; it's not top down chewing people out if they don't perform. Effective accountability is actually the opposite -  it's celebrating and acknowledging the effort and focus regardless of result. 

When I read Pablo's comments I heard that he thinks the players (or some of them) are not holding themselves and others accountable for the effort they put in and the focus with which they work. Ask yourself - what did I do today, and yesterday, and last week, to improve my personal performance and/or put us in the best position to win today? If I made a mistake, did I acknowledge that mistake, take responsibility, and focus my efforts so that I don't make that mistake again?  Or, as many people do, did I make an excuse, decide that "it's all good", keep my head down and hope no one notices or calls me out, and just hope it doesn't happen again. Or even worse, did I just do today what I've always done and hope for better results? The first group are the people you want, the last two groups are the people who kill an organization. 

I think the culture issue is a lack of accountability and I read Pablo's comments as an effort by the remaining leaders to start enforcing accountability from within. I don't think Correa was a problem but I think he was miscast as a leader because he wasn't willing to call people out and he didn't always exemplify the effort he wanted from others. I think he's better as a complimentary clubhouse piece, but not the clubhouse leader. I frankly think Buxton may be the same, but all of this is just a guess based on what I see and what we don't see is more important. I don't know what goes on so I don't know if Rocco is part of the problem or the solution and none of the rest of us do either. I do blame the FO because I think we have too many scholarship players and are too slow to acknowledge evaluation mistakes. Regardless of all that, taking better accountability would be a huge step forward for this team at all levels, including ownership.      

[Woof Bronzer]

Just now, Dman said:

Talent wins baseball games period.,  Culture is a nice talking point, but in the end means very little.  These are pro ball players fighting to stay relevant in the game the have trained their entire lives for.  Culture's not the problem.

I think it's much more complicated than this.  If this were true the most talented team would win the Series every year and that simply isn't the case.  Think of 2 years ago, Rangers vs DBacks.  Were they the most talented teams in their respective leagues? 

 To your point, MLB is full of talented, highly trained players.  The worst teams still have pitchers throwing mid 90s and guy mashing homers.  Almost every team wins more than 60 games and less than 100 games each year.  Winning happens at the margins.  And having a good team culture and chemistry matters.  Ask anyone who has played the game.  I've been on less talented teams that overperformed because we all got along and had strong leaders; I've been on really talented teams that underperformed because the egos got in the way and nobody led.  

Of course talent matters.  But culture matters too.

[DJL44]

9 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I’m sure the dodgers would. Give me the guy who’s won the whole thing. Yes, with more talented guys. But he still had to manage the clubhouse, one with some of the highest paid players in the game and their egos.

Go look at Joe Torre's record as a manager before he got hired by the Yankees. Now look at how Dusty Baker did before he turned 50.

[Aggies7]

3 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Go look at Joe Torre's record as a manager before he got hired by the Yankees. Now look at how Dusty Baker did before he turned 50.

Ok well if Rocco’s teams ever win anything of note, we can revisit this 

[Doctor Gast]

IMO, what adds to culture is keeping a winning core together, bringing up in-house players & give them a chance rather than giving that opportunity to a privileged outsider. During our 13-game winning streak, Keirsey got some walk-offs & his teammates were more excited than he was.

Nick, you mentioned accountability. How does that figure into team culture? Of course, players have to be accountable to each other, that everybody is doing their best before & during the game, players are accountable to the manager (trust the process), the manager is accountable to the FO, the FO is accountable to ownership & the owners are accountable to the fans. If there isn't accountability with the manager, FO, or owners, they become delusional & start making excuses (it's never their fault). It's never their bad philosophies, poor player evaluation, development, management or not able to initiate a viable trade. How I miss a FO being accountable, they take an honest evaluation of themselves & step down, saying I did my best, but my way didn't work. Not being delusional & say, the problem is I didn't have enough control.

I dislike the occultness of this regime, where you have no idea who is responsible for what or what is going on. It's tough to really know what Lopez really meant. IMO, Correa took his role of being the team leader very seriously; he wanted this team to be very competitive, he put in his work. His going to the Twins & suggested to be moved off SS during his foot problems is him being accountable. I also think he held Falvey accountable for his ability to field a competitive team, which probably caused friction between them. Correa's frustration was obvious that he probably took it out on less experienced players.

You look at many of the players that were traded away, and they're dominating. Because of the fire & chemistry of the team they ended up at. Duran was interviewed after one of his saves. The stadium was packed & wild, he stated, "I haven't felt like this since the '23 playoffs. Why aren't our stadium packed? Maybe because we aren't winning. Why aren't we winning? Is it because of Correa? He seems to be doing pretty well at HOU. IMO, it's because of the Pohlads, Falvey, Baldelli & Co. not being accountable (they get promoted & extended no matter what they do), which affects the team.

[Woof Bronzer]

For those dismissing culture as meaningless:  is Pablo an idiot?  If culture doesn't matter, why did he go out of his way to give an out of character interview claiming the opposite? We're not in the clubhouse; he is, and he thinks it's a problem.  Does his opinion matter?

Again, Pablo Lopez, a professional baseball player, gave an interview saying culture is important and needs to improve.  And posters here are essentially saying "Lol Pablo you rube, culture doesn't matter."  

Another TD classic.  

[Dman]

21 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

I think it's much more complicated than this.  If this were true the most talented team would win the Series every year and that simply isn't the case.  Think of 2 years ago, Rangers vs DBacks.  Were they the most talented teams in their respective leagues? 

 To your point, MLB is full of talented, highly trained players.  The worst teams still have pitchers throwing mid 90s and guy mashing homers.  Almost every team wins more than 60 games and less than 100 games each year.  Winning happens at the margins.  And having a good team culture and chemistry matters.  Ask anyone who has played the game.  I've been on less talented teams that overperformed because we all got along and had strong leaders; I've been on really talented teams that underperformed because the egos got in the way and nobody led.  

Of course talent matters.  But culture matters too.

But how bad is the culture on this team when the guys they traded didn't even want to leave?  Who are these bad apples affecting team chemistry?  I haven't seen or heard about any.  Keaschall just said the young players are energized to play well. To prove that they belong.

I've seen teams with great chemistry, but they didn't have much talent and didn't win much. Fun teams to be on, but not winning teams.  It would be one thing if there was just some huge divisive person or issue dividing the team, but I'm not aware of any. In the grand scheme chemistry just doesn't impact much. I would say the teams that I was on that were most successful were full of competitive guys that wanted to one up the other guy.  They wanted bragging rights.  I guess that's a form of chemistry if done right.  Competition or the iron sharpening iron approach is far more valuable than chemistry or accountability. 

Maybe there could be some accountability issue's but if you're a pro player and having those kinds of issues how long will you be in the league?  Likely not long.  These articles only come up when the team is losing I think that is the correlation for poor accountability and chemistry issues.  In general they seem to be some sort of scape goat for players poor performance.  If you don't think these guys aren't trying as hard as they possibly can to be successful I don't know what to tell you.  Some have the talent to make it some don't no matter how hard they try and team chemistry and accountability have little to do with it.

 

[USAFChief]

54 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

True, but there's also not that much difference between managers at the professional level. 

Well thats just like, your opinion man.

 

[AceWrigley]

3 hours ago, The Great Hambino said:

If you're not able to control the clubhouse culture, and you're not a master tactician, and you're not known for player development ... what exactly is it you do here?  

Rocco is overdue for his meeting with the Bobs

 

[Aggies7]

19 minutes ago, Dman said:

But how bad is the culture on this team when the guys they traded didn't even want to leave?  Who are these bad apples affecting team chemistry?  I haven't seen or heard about any.  Keaschall just said the young players are energized to play well. To prove that they belong.

I've seen teams with great chemistry, but they didn't have much talent and didn't win much. Fun teams to be on, but not winning teams.  It would be one thing if there was just some huge divisive person or issue dividing the team, but I'm not aware of any. In the grand scheme chemistry just doesn't impact much. I would say the teams that I was on that were most successful were full of competitive guys that wanted to one up the other guy.  They wanted bragging rights.  I guess that's a form of chemistry if done right.  Competition or the iron sharpening iron approach is far more valuable than chemistry or accountability. 

Maybe there could be some accountability issue's but if you're a pro player and having those kinds of issues how long will you be in the league?  Likely not long.  These articles only come up when the team is losing I think that is the correlation for poor accountability and chemistry issues.  In general they seem to be some sort of scape goat for players poor performance.  If you don't think these guys aren't trying as hard as they possibly can to be successful I don't know what to tell you.  Some have the talent to make it some don't no matter how hard they try and team chemistry and accountability have little to do with it.

 

Who didn’t want to leave? Varland is the only one was seemed disappointed, probably because he’s a hometown kid. Everyone else couldn’t wait to GTFO. Duran is a celebrity in a baseball crazy city, only pitching in save situations for a team going to the playoffs. You think he’d rather be back with Rocco, inexplicably pitching mop up duty on a team going nowhere? Several of the guys have made unflattering comments, which is rare.

[DJL44]

33 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Why aren't our stadium packed? 

Because they're charging $30 for the "cheap seats" on weekends in the summer. This is simple supply and demand.

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Who didn’t want to leave? Varland is the only one was seemed disappointed, probably because he’s a hometown kid. Everyone else couldn’t wait to GTFO. Duran is a celebrity in a baseball crazy city, only pitching in save situations, you think he’d rather be back with Rocco, inexplicably pitching mop up duty on a team going nowhere?

Jhoan Duran on trade rumors: "That'd be hard. I got a couple years here, and I feel like here is my family, so if that happens, that's maybe breaking my heart a little bit." Not exactly a guy begging to get out of town. You're just making stuff up. Correa agreed to be traded to 1 team after the Twins told him they were blowing it up and Jax asked to be traded after the Twins had already blown it up. Nobody else asked out. 

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, The Great Hambino said:

I believe a team's talent level is the main driver of a team's success,  and a manager's influence is more in the margins.  

Of course. Managers dont turn 60 win teams into 90 win teams. Or vice versa.

Talent level ultimately matters most.

But I believe managers have the biggest single influence on whether a team under or over achieves that talent level. Not just "marginal" either.

Turning an 85 win team into a 92 win team, or a 78 win team, seems to me totally reasonable. 

I would say Baldelli has been at least that bad. Lots of little things add up.

[Dman]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

Who didn’t want to leave? Varland is the only one was seemed disappointed, probably because he’s a hometown kid. Everyone else couldn’t wait to GTFO. Duran is a celebrity in a baseball crazy city, only pitching in save situations, you think he’d rather be back with Rocco, inexplicably pitching mop up duty on a team going nowhere?

Correa said he would only wave his no trade clause to go to Houston if things were so bad  wouldn't he say I'll go anywhere just get me the heck out.  He wanted to stay in Minnesota if things didn't work in Houston. That doesn't seem to point to bad culture, chemistry accountability issues IMO.

Duran didn't think he would be traded and there was an article where it intimated he\his family were sad about leaving Minnesota. Yeah I think he would come back in a heartbeat.  Most of his teammates and friends are here.

Jax said he didn't want to leave until that odd sequence of events and after they traded Correa.

Ryan's on the record as saying he would prefer to  stay in Minnesota. 

Varland didn't want to leave.

Guys know it is a business and all, but beyond Jax are you aware of anyone that desperately wanted to leave? and specifically leave because chemistry\culture issues?

They looked like a band of brothers until the trade deadline, but even with all that great chemistry they still lost a ton of games.

[Aggies7]

2 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Jhoan Duran on trade rumors: "That'd be hard. I got a couple years here, and I feel like here is my family, so if that happens, that's maybe breaking my heart a little bit." Not exactly a guy begging to get out of town. You're just making stuff up. Correa agreed to be traded to 1 team after the Twins told him they were blowing it up and Jax asked to be traded after the Twins had already blown it up. Nobody else asked out. 

Paddack wasn’t in Detroit for a day and he was bad mouthing the organization. You don’t mention the Jax and Rocco interaction the day before he was traded. You have guys still on the team saying it’s not good. Cmon be serious here. None of these guys wish they were still with the twins. They’re on contending teams, Except varland for the obvious reason.

[Aggies7]

3 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Of course. Managers dont turn 60 win teams into 90 win teams. Or vice versa.

Talent level ultimately matters most.

But I believe managers have the biggest single influence on whether a team under or over achieves that talent level. Not just "marginal" either.

Turning an 85 win team into a 92 win team, or a 78 win team, seems to me totally reasonable. 

I would say Baldelli has been at least that bad. Lots of little things add up.

This is correct. Perhaps “good culture” is not overrated. But “bad culture” is not. 

[Aggies7]

4 minutes ago, Dman said:

Correa said he would only wave his no trade clause to go to Houston if things were so bad  wouldn't he say I'll go anywhere just get me the heck out.  He wanted to stay in Minnesota if things didn't work in Houston. That doesn't seem to point to bad culture, chemistry accountability issues IMO.

Duran didn't think he would be traded and there was an article where it intimated he\his family were sad about leaving Minnesota. Yeah I think he would come back in a heartbeat.  Most of his teammates and friends are here.

Jax said he didn't want to leave until that odd sequence of events and after they traded Correa.

Ryan's on the record as saying he would prefer to  stay in Minnesota. 

Varland didn't want to leave.

Guys know it is a business and all, but beyond Jax are you aware of anyone that desperately wanted to leave? and specifically leave because chemistry\culture issues?

They looked like a band of brothers until the trade deadline, but even with all that great chemistry they still lost a ton of games.

Correa didn’t want to be in Minnesota to begin with, or he wouldn’t have been turned down by two other teams before coming back. I don’t particularly like the guy, but I guarantee you there isn’t one ounce of him that wants to be back in Minnesota, whether it was with Houston or someone else. People that have enjoyed the pinnacle of success in their profession can generally determine when they’re in a bad situation, whether that’s business or baseball. This is the same guy who said he wanted to raise his kids in MN. See how fast that changed.

[Wedman13]

13 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Who didn’t want to leave? Varland is the only one was seemed disappointed, probably because he’s a hometown kid. Everyone else couldn’t wait to GTFO. Duran is a celebrity in a baseball crazy city, only pitching in save situations for a team going to the playoffs. You think he’d rather be back with Rocco, inexplicably pitching mop up duty on a team going nowhere? Several of the guys have made unflattering comments, which is rare.

I trust this to be true, just have not seen the comments.  Who said what?  I suppose I could google but if u've got off the top of your head I'd love to hear.  Thanks

[AceWrigley]

Hey Rocco, what do you think about all of this?

 

[chpettit19]

Just now, Aggies7 said:

Paddack wasn’t in Detroit for a day and he was bad mouthing the organization. You don’t mention the Jax and Rocco interaction the day before he was traded. You have guys still on the team saying it’s not good. Cmon be serious here. None of these guys wish they were still with the twins. They’re on contending teams, Except varland for the obvious reason.

He was bad mouthing their kitchen. That's what you're concerned about? The Twins haven't updated their kitchen? No, I didn't mention that interaction. Why would I? He didn't demand a trade after that. We know exactly when he demanded a trade because he's said when he did. If you think that's the only disagreement between a player and manager in MLB this season you are sadly mistaken.

You not liking things about the Twins doesn't mean all the players hate everything about the Twins. I want every non-player gone from the top (Pohlads) to the bottom. Start all over. Clean sweep. But suggesting every player who's put a Twins jersey on this season wanted or wants out is nonsense. Yes, they're on contending teams. Buxton sure doesn't want out; he couldn't be any clearer. And Nolan Arenado used his NTC to stay on the Cardinals instead of going to the Astros. And Eduardo Rodriguez used his to stay with the Tigers instead of going to the Dodgers last year when the Tigers were 52-57 at the deadline. So, apparently that isn't such a huge thing and you're just making stuff up.

[Rod Carews Birthday]

57 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

I think it's much more complicated than this.  If this were true the most talented team would win the Series every year and that simply isn't the case.  Think of 2 years ago, Rangers vs DBacks.  Were they the most talented teams in their respective leagues? 

 To your point, MLB is full of talented, highly trained players.  The worst teams still have pitchers throwing mid 90s and guy mashing homers.  Almost every team wins more than 60 games and less than 100 games each year.  Winning happens at the margins.  And having a good team culture and chemistry matters.  Ask anyone who has played the game.  I've been on less talented teams that overperformed because we all got along and had strong leaders; I've been on really talented teams that underperformed because the egos got in the way and nobody led.  

Of course talent matters.  But culture matters too.

I think you're right on point with this.  I think culture can help make an 80 win team "overachieve" into an 85 win team or can be the difference in a playoff series.  The best teams do have the best players, but it's not quite that simple because they don't always win.  

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

He was bad mouthing their kitchen. That's what you're concerned about? The Twins haven't updated their kitchen? No, I didn't mention that interaction. Why would I? He didn't demand a trade after that. We know exactly when he demanded a trade because he's said when he did. If you think that's the only disagreement between a player and manager in MLB this season you are sadly mistaken.

You not liking things about the Twins doesn't mean all the players hate everything about the Twins. I want every non-player gone from the top (Pohlads) to the bottom. Start all over. Clean sweep. But suggesting every player who's put a Twins jersey on this season wanted or wants out is nonsense. Yes, they're on contending teams. Buxton sure doesn't want out; he couldn't be any clearer. And Nolan Arenado used his NTC to stay on the Cardinals instead of going to the Astros. And Eduardo Rodriguez used his to stay with the Tigers instead of going to the Dodgers last year when the Tigers were 52-57 at the deadline. So, apparently that isn't such a huge thing and you're just making stuff up.

“"My life got twisted upside down in a matter of 24 hours," Paddack said. I've been traded before, but never at the deadline. It's going to take some time getting used to. Everybody has been awesome so far. These facilities here, all the coaching staff, nutritionists, the kitchen - it's amazing what they have compared to what we had over at the Twins."

kind of disingenuous to leave that out, no?

[chpettit19]

Just now, Aggies7 said:

“"My life got twisted upside down in a matter of 24 hours," Paddack said. I've been traded before, but never at the deadline. It's going to take some time getting used to. Everybody has been awesome so far. These facilities here, all the coaching staff, nutritionists, the kitchen - it's amazing what they have compared to what we had over at the Twins."

kind of disingenuous to leave that out, no?

No, not disingenuous at all. That dash before the last part is important. It's the inflection and nonverbal part of speech that helps us understand the meaning of what was said. The facilities and kitchen are what he was saying is "amazing" compared to what the Twins have.

[USAFChief]

8 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

No, not disingenuous at all. That dash before the last part is important. It's the inflection and nonverbal part of speech that helps us understand the meaning of what was said. The facilities and kitchen are what he was saying is "amazing" compared to what the Twins have.

You got the inflection and nonverbal part from reading it?

 

[Aggies7]

7 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

You got the inflection and nonverbal part from reading it?

 

It’s funny, the tigers own site edited out his comments about the twins:

https://www.mlb.com/tigers/video/chris-paddack-on-his-first-start-with-the-tigers
 

sounds to me like a guy who wishes he was still in Minnesota and I’m making stuff up 

[Dman]

12 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

You got the inflection and nonverbal part from reading it?

 

I think he is saying the  "-" means he was referring to the kitchen not the coaching staff and nutritionists.  In the Yahoo sprots article they add the following which seems to indicate what @chpettit19 was saying.

"But, while Paddack expressed how this change of scenery is something he's still trying to manage, he also took a jab at the Twins. He essentially called out the Twins for their facilities by praising the Tigers' versions, and showing amazement at the difference."

 

[chpettit19]

9 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

You got the inflection and nonverbal part from reading it?

 

I mean, yes, that is how English works. A dash is how you represent a pause and change in inflection and tone in spoken word when writing. Also, I watched the interview. So, I got it both ways. But knowing how the written English language works was the primary way I got it and that shouldn't be a crazy thing.

[chpettit19]

13 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

It’s funny, the tigers own site edited out his comments about the twins:

https://www.mlb.com/tigers/video/chris-paddack-on-his-first-start-with-the-tigers
 

sounds to me like a guy who wishes he was still in Minnesota and I’m making stuff up 

Yes, he took a jab at the Twins for their kitchen/facilities in comparing them to the Twins. It's not weird that MLB wouldn't want that on their site. 

You said "Who didn't want out?...Everyone else couldn’t wait to GTFO." That is a statement about players actively wanting out before the trade deadline. As in, they were all hoping to be traded. That is based on nothing. Nothing at all. You can keep claiming it all you want because that's how this great country of ours works, but it will continue to be you making stuff up. You're now trying to move the goalposts to "wishes he was still in Minnesota" which is an after the fact thing. And that's fine. This conversation isn't going to go anywhere. You feel that no players want to be in MN and everyone not named Varland who was traded is happy to have been traded. Cool. Believe what you will.

[Aggies7]

6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Yes, he took a jab at the Twins for their kitchen/facilities in comparing them to the Twins. It's not weird that MLB wouldn't want that on their site. 

You said "Who didn't want out?...Everyone else couldn’t wait to GTFO." That is a statement about players actively wanting out before the trade deadline. As in, they were all hoping to be traded. That is based on nothing. Nothing at all. You can keep claiming it all you want because that's how this great country of ours works, but it will continue to be you making stuff up. You're now trying to move the goalposts to "wishes he was still in Minnesota" which is an after the fact thing. And that's fine. This conversation isn't going to go anywhere. You feel that no players want to be in MN and everyone not named Varland who was traded is happy to have been traded. Cool. Believe what you will.

He even mentioned the nutritionist! Yes, I will believe exactly that based on the comments I’ve heard over the last few years and that most professional athletes don’t want to waste their minimal playing years with a directionless organization with poor management. Even players still with the team are saying concerning things. The Twins are not an attractive organization to play for right now and that shouldn’t be a controversial statement.