Guardians 5, Twins 4: New Look, Same Struggles as the Twins Lose Again in Cleveland

[sweetmusicviola16]

6 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Games are won & lost in the margins. You might have OK pitching, even OK offense, but have poor defense & poor fundamentals. If you don't develop bunting, don't expect your players to bunt. Keirsey should have been sent down to AAA a long time ago so he could have been called up at this time. After sitting for an awful long time & when he finally played, he miraculously had a good game & then he was benched. Why not let him ride his good fortune? Martin had a good game & he sits. Julien isn't a 2Bman & he's not hitting, why is he playing every day?

And I still believe that Martin has some of the same stuff that some of those 1982 guys had. Intangibles that can't be measured. He should be given the chance to prove it on a team that has nothing to lose by giving him a chance.

[NYCTK]

8 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I hope to hell they aren't actually tanking. The thought of actively trying to lose is loathsome in the Nth degree. Its literally cheating. Cheating of the WORST kind...actively trying to influence outcomes with other than honest attempts to win.

For those of you promoting this abomination, tell me how it works. The nuts and bolts. Is Rocco in on it? Falvey? Just Falvey? Ownership? The players?

Who is it and what are they doing?

By the way the Twins dont have to tank to get in the draft lottery. Just miss the playoffs. And if they manage to tank all the way to the worst record in MLB their chances of winning the lottery go all the way up to 16.5%. 

Whoopie!

And if they are I just wish they'd let me know! I can make some money off this. 

But seriously, I don't think anyone's TRYING to lose. There are legitimate organizational reasons to keep some players in the minors, whether it's go get more coaches looks at the new players like Bradley, or the manipulation of service time for compensatory picks with Keaschall. 

[sweetmusicviola16]

7 minutes ago, mrtwinsfan said:

How about Sabato at 1b -  hit 2 more homers today, and he is a  1b by trade,  And Luke at 2 b  could use some r.h. pop -  and get Abel and Bradley up here both should be in the rotation , if needed 6 man rotatiion    -Bullpen is worthless anyway-   Ryan- Matthews -Abel-Bradley- Ober- S.W.R. FOR NOW !!!Festa and  Pablo later ,   8 starters figure it out , 

More trades are coming this off-season. Think Ryan and Lopez. Ober quite possibly too.

[sweetmusicviola16]

1 minute ago, NYCTK said:

And if they are I just wish they'd let me know! I can make some money off this. 

But seriously, I don't think anyone's TRYING to lose. There are legitimate organizational reasons to keep some players in the minors, whether it's go get more coaches looks at the new players like Bradley, or the manipulation of service time for compensatory picks with Keaschall. 

Keeping Keaschell and Rodriguez down now is just how you have to play the game and it's the smart thing to do. Next opening day is a different story. If nothing changes between now and then both will be up. I'd like Jenkins then too personally, though he might more be the next season. Larnach's time is ending here and maybe Wallner too. This is a key two months for them as far as their MN futures go.

[NYCTK]

8 minutes ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

And I still believe that Martin has some of the same stuff that some of those 1982 guys had. Intangibles that can't be measured. He should be given the chance to prove it on a team that has nothing to lose by giving him a chance.

This was the opposite of my read on him last year. Despite his speed he seemed to be a low baseball IQ guy with deceptively bad defense. Could have just been a bad run, and I concur he should be playing every game essentially for the next two months, perhaps even 8.

[darin617]

Who taught Keirsey how to bunt? I thought he was going to lose a finger up there. I can't believe how a guy who is on the team because of his speed doesn't know how to bunt.

[sweetmusicviola16]

2 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

This was the opposite of my read on him last year. Despite his speed he seemed to be a low baseball IQ guy with deceptively bad defense. Could have just been a bad run, and I concur he should be playing every game essentially for the next two months, perhaps even 8.

And if he's nothing more than a body to fill a roster spot this season and next you find that out. But teams in rebuilds need bodies. In all fairness some of the guys on that 82 team were awful too. But the cream rose to the top and that's what the next year or two will show here as well.

[Aggies7]

32 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

Exactly.  The odds are incredibly flat in the MLB lottery.

And even if it were worth it, wouldn't playing young players that maybe aren't quite ready accomplish the same goal?

Also this isn’t the NFL where a draft pick is playing immediately. And like, yeah, Skenes is great for Pittsburgh but they still stink. There’s no point in tanking. The twins don’t even have to try to lose, I mean look at some of these guys playing.

[Aggies7]

21 minutes ago, darin617 said:

Who taught Keirsey how to bunt? I thought he was going to lose a finger up there. I can't believe how a guy who is on the team because of his speed doesn't know how to bunt.

Right? He looked like a power hitting first baseman trying to bunt. Who are the developmental coaches in this organization and can we fire them all? I mean it, all the way down to Cedar Rapids. Guys are coming up with very poor fundamentals and outside of Luke K they are often very overwhelmed.

[Nashvilletwin]

Kiersey trying to bunt today is a screaming example of the failures our organization.  How in the world can our fastest player literally have no idea how to lay down a bunt?  How does that player with that particular skill set get to the major leagues without developing the most obvious skill needed to maximum his speed.

It’s simply mind boggling. That’s 100% on the coaching staff. 

[KirbyDome89]

6 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

whether it's go get more coaches looks at the new players like Bradley

What magic are AAA pitching coaches working that Maki & co are incapable of?

[Aggies7]

6 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Kiersey trying to bunt today is a screaming example of the failures our organization.  How in the world can our fastest player literally have no idea how to lay down a bunt?  How does that player with that particular skill set get to the major leagues without developing the most obvious skill needed to maximum his speed.

It’s simply mind boggling. That’s 100% on the coaching staff. 

It’s fair to ask though, what’s being emphasized in the minor leagues instead of fundamentals? It’s obvious something(s) else is being taught by the coaches, but what’s the directive being given and who is it coming from? Is it sitting in front of an iPad analyzing 47 angles or a guy’s swing, or are they out there doing stuff before BP, like fielding, PFP and bunting? And I’m not suggesting the twins are the only organization with that approach, but they’re really bad at it.

[NYCTK]

5 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

What magic are AAA pitching coaches working that Maki & co are incapable of?

If your deadline is years in the future, what's the harm in getting more of your team to view a project? 

[Parfigliano]

39 minutes ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

Keeping Keaschell and Rodriguez down now is just how you have to play the game and it's the smart thing to do. Next opening day is a different story. If nothing changes between now and then both will be up. I'd like Jenkins then too personally, though he might more be the next season. Larnach's time is ending here and maybe Wallner too. This is a key two months for them as far as their MN futures go.

They both really need to start hitting like the projections said they could.

[Parfigliano]

38 minutes ago, darin617 said:

Who taught Keirsey how to bunt? I thought he was going to lose a finger up there. I can't believe how a guy who is on the team because of his speed doesn't know how to bunt.

It was ridiculous.  Damn near had his hand completely around the barrel trying to bunt pitches shoulder high.  Guy has been playing baseball since he's 6 years old and is totally clueless on how to bunt.  

[sweetmusicviola16]

3 minutes ago, Parfigliano said:

They both really need to start hitting like the projections said they could.

Wallner might be back because he'll be cheap and rebuilders need bodies, but he needs to start hitting yes. Larnach's time here is very short. He's likely a 4 mil player next season so not so cheap. He's gone one way or another imo.

[rv78]

So Friday night Gasper isn't asked to bunt because he doesn't know how. Today Kiersey fails at bunting and looks completely lost at trying to do it. Obviously bunting isn't being taught at any level in the minor leagues. Go back to last season and the struggles Austin Martin had. Then remember why he had those struggles. It was because the Twins brass tried to make him into a power hitter. Could it be with Kiersey they wanted the same thing. That would explain the lack of situational hitting and bunting ability by most every young player on the Twins. They wanted a forever chain of players replicating the "Bomba Squad" that swings for the fences instead of contact first and situational hitting albeit hit and run, bunting or taking the ball to the opposite field. My guess is all the hitting coaches are telling all the players to swing as hard as you can everytime you swing. Setting the record for the most strikeouts in a season last year and seeing how bad they are at making contact again this year would suggest they haven't changed their approach on offense even if some of the players have changed.

[Parfigliano]

1 minute ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

Wallner might be back because he'll be cheap and rebuilders need bodies, but he needs to start hitting yes. Larnach's time here is very short. He's likely a 4 mil player next season so not so cheap. He's gone one way or another imo.

TC is not paying anywhere near $4 mil for what Larnach is now.  More likely no one is.

[sweetmusicviola16]

10 minutes ago, Parfigliano said:

TC is not paying anywhere near $4 mil for what Larnach is now.  More likely no one is.

yep I agree. Problem for Trevor is he's going into 2nd year of arb  and making 2.1 this year so arb will dictate a decent raise. MN will likely want to non tender and yeah probably won't be too many lookers out there. Sometimes arb prices don't work in a players favor.

[bunsen82]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

 Not gonna name names but it rhymes with Munson.

 

I like Abel and yes other than less control as I said in that post, I think they are pretty close in ability.  You seem to think Falvey failed in not getting Painter when the values don’t match up.  Even though the Phillies said in no uncertain terms they weren’t not trading him.  See I can understand that mlb, organizations, or front offices have different valuations and more information.  It doesn’t mean as a fan I can’t make assumptions like thinking Arreaz was criminally underrated and valued.  The guy could just hit.   
 

As to tanking, it has happened, is currently happening and will happen in the future. You can’t look at the lineup we put out there today and say we put out the best bullpen or lineup we could (we just traded 40% of them). We have a player that almost wins the game on his own the previous day and he sits the bench.  We are not trying to win, and from perceptions actually trying to lose. In most cases it’s the general manager giving a coach a roster that has no chance of winning. Sometimes it also includes the coach.  
 

as to the draft yes it’s a lottery. Chances are if you are bottom 3 record you will get a top 5 pick.  It’s not the same as when Baltimore or Houston did it, but it doesn’t mean teams still won’t do it, even if there are a few more barriers. You can continue to dislike every post of mine, you can call me out personally.  Even still I know I may not know everything, but like my hunch on Arreaz I’m pretty sure I am right.  

[AceWrigley]

1 hour ago, mrtwinsfan said:

How about Sabato at 1b -  hit 2 more homers today, and he is a  1b by trade,  And Luke at 2 b  could use some r.h. pop -  and get Abel and Bradley up here both should be in the rotation , if needed 6 man rotatiion    -Bullpen is worthless anyway-   Ryan- Matthews -Abel-Bradley- Ober- S.W.R. FOR NOW !!!Festa and  Pablo later ,   8 starters figure it out , 

I was just considering the current lineups.

[rv78]

2 hours ago, AceWrigley said:

Ohl pitched pretty good. The left hand batters hit pretty bad as they can't lay off the diving curveballs at their feet. The toughest out last night was Austin Martin and he went 3-5. So Rocco sat him today, wasted him as a pinch runner and we had to endure Kiersey trying to do anything but have to swing at a major league pitch. And defensively Clemens should be at 2B and Julien at 1B.

This is just Rocco doing his usual top-notch managing. A guy goes 3 for 5 and is rewarded with bench duty the next day. Even if his replacement is hitting .115 for the season. Playing time decisions like this is exactly why Rocco needs to go. 

[bunsen82]

1 hour ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

More trades are coming this off-season. Think Ryan and Lopez. Ober quite possibly too.

I think Ryan is a guarantee in the offseason. Especially if he ends the season strong.    I am starting to think we keep Lopez and Ober and see if they can go on a hot streak and get more value. I may be wrong and new management wants to come in and compete right away.  I just think the timeline is moved to 2027-2028. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

2 hours ago, NYCTK said:

This was discussed in a different thread but there is some negative incentives to bring up players that you perceive as your future too. For example Luke Keaschall is better served to stay in AAA through this month for one reason - if he retains rookie status and makes the opening day roster next year and stays on the major league roster the Twins get an additional pick between the 1st and 2nd rounds. That's true for the likes of Rodriguez and any other prospect that hasn't met rookie minimums yet. 

Are you referring to the Prospect Promotion Incentive? It appears Keaschall has lost eligibility already due to his time on the MLB IL. Rodríguez would be eligible, but in addition to making the opening day roster with rookie eligibility next year, he would either need to win the Rookie of the Year award, or have a top-3 league MVP finish within his first 3 seasons, in order for the Twins to get an extra draft pick.

[NYCTK]

4 minutes ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

Are you referring to the Prospect Promotion Incentive? It appears Keaschall has lost eligibility already due to his time on the MLB IL. Rodríguez would be eligible, but in addition to making the opening day roster with rookie eligibility next year, he would either need to win the Rookie of the Year award, or have a top-3 league MVP finish within his first 3 seasons, in order for the Twins to get an extra draft pick.

Good corrections. Thanks man. So, pretty unlikely and no idea if that's at all part of the calculus. 

[Nashvilletwin]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

It’s fair to ask though, what’s being emphasized in the minor leagues instead of fundamentals? It’s obvious something(s) else is being taught by the coaches, but what’s the directive being given and who is it coming from? Is it sitting in front of an iPad analyzing 47 angles or a guy’s swing, or are they out there doing stuff before BP, like fielding, PFP and bunting? And I’m not suggesting the twins are the only organization with that approach, but they’re really bad at it.

For whatever reason I imagine TK or Gardy making Kiersey take 100 bunt reps per day until he was more than proficient.  I also imagine both of them fining Kiersey $200 for not getting the bunt down - followed by several hundred more reps the next day.

Heck, I’d do that (not the fine part) with my little leaguers or juniors. 

[mrtwinsfan]

18 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Good corrections. Thanks man. So, pretty unlikely and no idea if that's at all part of the calculus. 

so luke get up here -!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bunsen82]

1 hour ago, The Great Hambino said:

Exactly.  The odds are incredibly flat in the MLB lottery.

And even if it were worth it, wouldn't playing young players that maybe aren't quite ready accomplish the same goal?

If you have a bottom 2 record you still have a 70% chance at a top 5 pick.  Plus there are 4 teams that can’t compete in the lottery that will affect the odds quite a but this year. 

[KirbyDome89]

1 hour ago, NYCTK said:

If your deadline is years in the future, what's the harm in getting more of your team to view a project? 

Inferior coaching in an inferior environment. You're wasting valuable audition time. They aren't getting more of the view to view the project, they're procrastinating. 

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, rv78 said:

So Friday night Gasper isn't asked to bunt because he doesn't know how. Today Kiersey fails at bunting and looks completely lost at trying to do it. Obviously bunting isn't being taught at any level in the minor leagues.

With Gasper, he's barely spent a season in the Twins organization, which means the Yankees and Red Sox also don't teach bunting at any level in the minor leagues.

I listened to the Cleveland broadcast on Sirius XM and their announcer (Hamilton?) was shocked at how bad Keirsey is at bunting.

I thought Ohl did a pretty good job coming through when Rocco decided to have a slow hook for the first time in his managerial career. That may be part of the "Ohl is a 3-inning pitcher" directive from the front office.