BREAKING: Twins Trade Jhoan Duran to Philadelphia Phillies

[NYCTK]

5 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

We got none back.

Welcome to baseball trades. 

Abel very well might fail as a starter. But you know who else wasn't good enough to be a starter in the major leagues? Jhoan Duran. 

[Dman]

1 minute ago, bunsen82 said:

Raya gets shelled in AAA,  so far this year Abel has not.   I understand your points though.  There is risk with any move.  However his BB rate isn't that far off from players like Sonny Gray or even SWR as I mentioned earlier.  There is definitely a path where he can find more consistency.  He is only 23.  

Good point on age.  He is only 23 which is pretty young yet.  There is time.  I hope they give him lot's of chances this year to work on his stuff at the MLB level since he appears to have mastered AAA.  Experience is the best teacher.  Hopefully he finds what he needs to propel him forward.  I am rooting for him. Would love to have another mid rotation starter for next year

[Riverbrian]

57 minutes ago, bunsen82 said:

I feel ignorant is a fair statement when the claim was the front office has NEVER helped the big league team. As to the 2021 draft we still have Ohl and Debarge who still lives on from the Petty trade. 
 

My personal issue since they took the team is they have always tried to put a good product on the field. They have regularly stolen from the minors in trades to supplement the big league team and never did a proper tank. 
 

Honestly this morning I like the trade even more. Abel has 5 very good pitches. Really it comes down to control and sequencing. The Phillies seem to be very aggressive in moving up their prospects so leaving him at ASA seems like a very good idea to fine tune his repertoire and gain a little more confidence and control. As to Tait the bat is legit. The risk is staying behind the plate and my guess is the Twins feel he will or they wouldn’t have made the trade. These are the 2 best prospects traded. We still have risk they will perform but it seems like very good value for Duran. 

It's rarely fair. Probably only fair if they fire it off first because they were not being fair. We get where we are in our opinions from different paths. You can disagree and make your case without it. Without disagreement there isn't much to discuss. I just shut down the conversation when I get hit with it or sentiment of the like.

In this case... I'll assume that "Never" was a bit augmented because the front office has obviously made moves to improve the team in their 8 years and also made moves that didn't work like the other 29 organizations. No matter how we feel at the moment in the midst of this selling... the club has been competitive. Just not to the degree of the liking of some.  

In regards to the trade. This is what selling looks like. There are some smart posters that I respect on this website who were typing Sell Sell Sell and now they don't like the sale. Well... This is what selling looks like. You can't ask for rain and then not like the rain when it comes.  

I have no opinion on Abel or Tait or the young catcher from the Tigers. I'm not going to judge the deal today. and I'm not going to judge any deals to come today. I have my issues with this front office but I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they made their phone calls and didn't take a lesser deal on purpose. I'm going to assume that they believe that this was the best offer they could get and they took it.  

Judgement is for tomorrow because this trade will be won or lost based on how this organization develops the players acquired. I've never seen this Tait kid and I'm certainly not going to trust the opinion of some guy writing an opinion and then pass that opinion off as my own. I'm certainly not going to look at numbers produced as a 19 year old and think that he is frozen in time and this is what he will be as a 24 year old. All organizations have coaching who have jobs to improve players that make them major league ready. If the kid doesn't develop... they lost the trade. This is yet to be determined. Therefore, I don't understand the preemptive anger before the results are tallied.   

I did see Abel pitch in the majors for an inning or two and he looked real good. I certainly am not going to form an opinion on Abel based on those two innings. I'm just going to say that this is what selling looks like and I appreciate your efforts to represent the other side against an overwhelming opposition wind.    

In regards to the 2021 draft. We do have 2021 draftee Ohl (Future MLB Production and Value yet to be determined) and we have Festa who looks pretty good to me and someone I would place a bet on. DeBarge on the other hand was the 33rd overall pick in the 2024 draft... His future MLB Production and Value yet to be determined).  

We agree and disagree at the same time when you state your personal issue. The Twins have been trying to put a decent product on the field, trying to win today. I agree and I do believe that that mindset has been a major factor that has led to the selling. 

Where we disagree is... I don't believe that it is necessary to do a "Proper Tank" to remain competitive. Your farm just has to produce and keep producing and that's where the Twins have fell short. The going for it every year is probably a big reason why. The Red Sox traded Devers and went on a winning streak. They have a lineup of 6 pre-arb players in their starting lineup. The Tigers are loaded with 18 pre-arb players... the Brewers have 18 pre-arb players. Cleveland is constantly loaded up with pre-arb players year after year. The Rays. None of them have done a proper tank they just keep producing and they keep bringing in more in trades just like the Duran trade that has everybody all worked up. 

None of this is shocking to me... I've been saying for quite some time now that a bill was going to come due for the constant parade of cheap one year vets and what is a lack of trust in their own farm system.

The proper tank that you speak of becomes necessary when a club has no other place to turn and I think the front office has painted themselves into a corner in that regard. They don't have the youth (That they routinely show trust in) to fill the spaces and they don't have the money to bring in players developed by other organizations. This is what it looks like when you hit that wall. 

They got to go to ownership and tell them that we need more money to keep doing what we have been doing and I don't have the impression that conversation will go well. We have never had a big boy budget. So... you become a crash dummy into that wall. 

On expiring contracts alone... we will have 7 roster spots to fill next year and Arb raises will eat up the majority of that available off-season money from the expiring contracts. Nobody should have the expectation that we are going to have approval for a massive budget increase (Even with new Owners). It makes it kind of obvious that the team is going to have move some higher dollar players either now or in the off season just to staff the club in 2026.

If it's not Duran now... It's Ryan now or Duran, Ryan or Lopez in the off-season because they need more money just to fill the spaces to remain competitive. The raise that Duran was going to get in Arb was probably a big one so by removing that Arb Raise and getting young prospects back... they have a little more money to fill the open spaces... still not enough while they go from 7 to 8 roster spots to fill with the loss of Duran.

We will probably see additional trades or even cuts rather than pay the Arb raise in the off-season to free up more money for 2026. None of this is shocking to me. This bill was always coming due... it was just a matter of time in how long the front office could McGyver things together with the Ty France types but this bill was unavoidable at some point in time. 

 

[tony&rodney]

3 minutes ago, bunsen82 said:

SWR  has a whip of 1.4  and BB9 of 3.9   ERA of 4.24  SWR has no elite pitches.  

Abel has  a whip of 1.36    BB9 of 3.2   ER of 5.04 (3.47 prior to last outing) - 1 elite pitch and 1 plus pitch,  3 others above average

I like SWR.  He is the definition of a pitcher.   He is not a thrower, he is a pitcher.   Even still Abel on raw stats in limited outings is just as good.  He has 2 better pitches, 1 being elite and yes he does have a much higher ceiling that SWR and would have a much higher value in any trade.   Yes he has some starter risk, but I don't think its near the risk some want to point out.   Sonny Gray has had a lifetime 3 BB per a 9.  Yes he needs to improve some control, but its not that far off.  

Hey I hope Mick Abel wins 20 games a year for the next 20 years, but right now there is zero argument. Sim is in the major leagues and Abel is in AAA. 

We can save the arguments for stuff, etc. SWR has thrown 224 IP, given up 213 H, and has a 1.34 WHIP pitching for among the worst defensive teams in all of baseball. Abel is less than one year younger, has thrown 25 IP, given up 25 H, and has a 1.36 WHIP.  There is no comparison at this time.

As far as MLB Pipeline grades, go look at 2021 grades for both Mick Abel and Simeon Woods Richardson.

You are relatively new to Twins Daily. Welcome. In the past TD has had followers of other teams push excessive numbers on readers to promote or defend trades. I have no idea if you are a lifelong Twins fans or a Phillies fan. I don't know if you watch minor league baseball or have ever seen these players. Jesuit High School, where Abel graduated from high school, is a fine school that also has good athletics. Some of us go back pretty far on some players. Some of us have seen these players play on numerous occasions both live and via Milb.com. The Twins fans among us, which may be you too, are totally hoping that Abel (and several years from now, Tait) has a great run with the Twins. It just doesn't work to say a prospect is better now or discuss ceilings of a prospect to a current major league player. By those definitions, Andrew Painter is better than Tarik Skubel. Let's just agree that there is hope for Abel to succeed as a pitcher for the Twins.

[bunsen82]

9 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

It's rarely fair. Probably only fair if they fire it off first because they were not being fair. We get where we are in our opinions from different paths. You can disagree and make your case without it. Without disagreement there isn't much to discuss. I just shut down the conversation when I get hit with it or sentiment of the like.

In this case... I'll assume that "Never" was a bit augmented because the front office has obviously made moves to improve the team in their 8 years and also made moves that didn't work like the other 29 organizations. No matter how we feel at the moment in the midst of this selling... the club has been competitive. Just not to the degree of the liking of some.  

Judgement is for tomorrow because this trade will be won or lost based on how this organization develops the players acquired. I've never seen this Tait kid and I'm certainly not going to trust the opinion of some guy writing an opinion and then pass that opinion off as my own. I'm certainly not going to look at numbers produced as a 19 year old and think that he is frozen in time and this is what he will be as a 24 year old. All organizations have coaching who have jobs to improve players that make them major league ready. If the kid doesn't develop... they lost the trade. This is yet to be determined. Therefore, I don't understand the preemptive anger before the results are tallied.   

I did see Abel pitch in the majors for an inning or two and he looked real good. I certainly am not going to form an opinion on Abel based on those two innings. I'm just going to say that this is what selling looks like and I appreciate your efforts to represent the other side against an overwhelming opposition wind.    

In regards to the 2021 draft. We do have 2021 draftee Ohl (Future MLB Production and Value yet to be determined) and we have Festa who looks pretty good to me and someone I would place a bet on. DeBarge on the other hand was the 33rd overall pick in the 2024 draft... His future MLB Production and Value yet to be determined).  

We agree and disagree at the same time when you state your personal issue. The Twins have been trying to put a decent product on the field, trying to win today. I agree and I do believe that that mindset has been a major factor that has led to the selling. 

Where we disagree is... I don't believe that it is necessary to do a "Proper Tank" to remain competitive. Your farm just has to produce and keep producing and that's where the Twins have fell short. The going for it every year is probably a big reason why. The Red Sox traded Devers and went on a winning streak. They have a lineup of 6 pre-arb players in their starting lineup. The Tigers are loaded with 18 pre-arb players... the Brewers have 18 pre-arb players. Cleveland is constantly loaded up with pre-arb players year after year. The Rays. None of them have done a proper tank they just keep producing and they keep bringing in more in trades just like the Duran trade that has everybody all worked up. 

 

 

That specific poster has not looked at anything logically in the last 24 hours.  His statements and opinions have been very clear.  

We have a system that is loaded,  we have a front office that is completely restricted by ownership.  Meaning in the next 1-2 years,  I don't see us getting the financial support to actually put a winning team on the field.  So Rebuild is the best answer.  I still don't think its the way they go,  unless the payouts are so great even those here on Twinsdaily think we won decisively.  The only other option is you trade for replacements in the offseason and try to keep your prospect capital ahead, and or achieve more years of controlability.  

[chopper0080]

Mason Miller return making Twins deal look rougher

[bunsen82]

3 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

 

You are relatively new to Twins Daily. Welcome. 

Been around for a while,  had to create a new account because old email went away and couldn't remember the password LOL.   Changed to this because my old name was Bean Counter which had just minor differences from my dads screen name so thought it would be good to avoid the confusion.  LOL  

[Mike Sixel]

8 minutes ago, chopper0080 said:

Mason Miller return making Twins deal look rougher

There is another pitcher in the deal, and Miller has two more years of control, and costs a lot less in salary.. I'm not sure how comparable the deals are. 

[T.O.]

1 hour ago, NYCTK said:

And no one here is mentioning the risk they are selling. 

RP often burn bright and quick and then fade away. Duran's K-rate is down, his velo is down (slightly) and he's been suspiciously healthy for 4 seasons now. There's nothing to say he's not a prime candidate to explode and become another footnote in the annals of "elite" closers. 

My two years of posting on this forum I've stuck to stating my opinion rather than directly go after others opinions. So I'll just say now I'm speechless. 

[LA Vikes Fan]

7 minutes ago, chopper0080 said:

Mason Miller return making Twins deal look rougher

Not sure I agree. As gave up Miller and a decent starter in J.P. Sears (think A little better than Paddack). They got a really good prospect in Leo De Vries plus 3 unnamed pitchers, probably lottery tickets or AA guys that project as middle relievers. SD has no good pitching prospects. DeVries is 18, is a better prospect than the 19 year old Tait and both have the 3 years away kind of problem. Our second player in Abel is likely much better than any of the pitching prospects going with DeVries. Duran and Mason are close in value and the As threw in a 4th starter type. I would say the returns are similar at least adn the Twins might have gotten a little more. 

 

[jorgenswest]

The A’s outplayed the Twins. After Clase dropped out there were two closers left. The A’s got the number 3 prospect. If the Twins stand steady with their demands they would get a better return.

As @Mike Sixel suggests I don’t think they get the number 3 prospect. Can they get Salas though who is the #2 catcher and should be ready next year? If the Padres are willing to give up the number three prospect I think they are willing to give up the prospects behind him. If that Padres Miller deal happen and Duran is the only one left do the Phillies give up Painter?

I don’t see how this an be viewed as any thing but a failure. Maybe the Twins are smarter than everyone and Abel is ready to join Ryan and Lopez as playoff caliber starters next year while Tait is ready to start in 2027.

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

The A’s outplayed the Twins. After Clase dropped out there were two closers left. The A’s got the number 3 prospect. If the Twins stand steady with their demands they would get a better return.

 

As @Mike Sixel suggests I don’t think they get the number 3 prospect. Can they get Salas though who is the #2 catcher and should be ready next year? If the Padres are willing to give up the number three prospect I think they are willing to give up the prospects behind him. If that Padres Miller deal happen and Duran is the only one left do the Phillies give up Painter?

I don’t see how this an be viewed as any thing but a failure. Maybe the Twins are smarter than everyone and Abel is ready to join Ryan and Lopez as playoff caliber starters next year while Tait is ready to start in 2027.

I didn't think the As did any better than Minnesota. Maybe worse even. 

[Riverbrian]

9 minutes ago, bunsen82 said:

That specific poster has not looked at anything logically in the last 24 hours.  His statements and opinions have been very clear.  

We have a system that is loaded,  we have a front office that is completely restricted by ownership.  Meaning in the next 1-2 years,  I don't see us getting the financial support to actually put a winning team on the field.  So Rebuild is the best answer.  I still don't think its the way they go,  unless the payouts are so great even those here on Twinsdaily think we won decisively.  The only other option is you trade for replacements in the offseason and try to keep your prospect capital ahead, and or achieve more years of controlability.  

I read the rankings, I read the reports... Their interesting and they can give you hope for the future if you believe them to be accurate. They may be accurate... they may not be... they may be somewhere in between but those rankings don't mean a thing, if the these top ten ranked farm systems are not graduating sufficient numbers to keep the budget flexible. I've read the rankings, the reports, we've had a top ten farm system for many years now and we stand here today with the minimum amount of product from that farm in 2025. I don't why... we have low numbers... but we have low numbers and whatever the reason... it isn't good. 

Front office supported by ownership? Maybe... I'm sure there are times when the wallet didn't open but this didn't sneak up on them. It may have been made worse by the RSN debacle but if the front office expected the budget to be able to forgo development... I don't know how to respond to that. I've been a Twins fan since the Hoover administration... Money is something that has never been available to the front offices of my team and I've stopped screaming about it and I'm pretty sure that money won't be available after the team is sold to the new owner because our revenue is going to remain in the same group of teams who have budgets similiar to what we operate under. The Twins can't staff to compete like the Phillies do but they basically have taken the same vet approach to field a competitive team. They don't have the Phillies money... they have Brewers money. Actually more money than the Brewers have. The Twins have the potential to be the Brewers with more money than they do.

Development was always the key and development got lost along the way. I think you are right... it's the constant going for it. You can tell me about the loaded system that we have waiting in the wings. I sure hope you are right but I see no evidence of our past loaded systems production on July 31, 2025.      

I don't disagree that rebuild may be the best answer... but I'm very hesitant to trust this front office with the rebuild because rebuilding requires development and at the very least... thus far... this front office has chosen to limit the numbers of farm raised talent. 

I've often said that I will judge this front office on development. I may not be ready to judge this trade but I am ready to judge the development. It hasn't been good.     

[bunsen82]

Just now, Riverbrian said:

I read the rankings, I read the reports... Their interesting and they can give you hope for the future if you believe them to be accurate. They may be accurate... they may not be... they may be somewhere in between but those rankings don't mean a thing, if the these top ten ranked farm systems are not graduating sufficient numbers to keep the budget flexible. I've read the rankings, the reports, we've had a top ten farm system for many years now and we stand here today with the minimum amount of product from that farm in 2025. I don't why... we have low numbers... but we have low numbers and whatever the reason... it isn't good. 

Front office supported by ownership? Maybe... I'm sure there are times when the wallet didn't open but this didn't sneak up on them. It may have been made worse by the RSN debacle but if the front office expected the budget to be able to forgo development... I don't know how to respond to that. I've been a Twins fan since the Hoover administration... Money is something that has never been available to the front offices of my team and I've stopped screaming about it and I'm pretty sure that money won't be available after the team is sold to the new owner because our revenue is going to remain in the same group of teams who have budgets similiar to what we operate under. The Twins can't staff to compete like the Phillies do but they basically have taken the same vet approach to field a competitive team. They don't have the Phillies money... they have Brewers money. Actually more money than the Brewers have. The Twins have the potential to be the Brewers with more money than they do.

Development was always the key and development got lost along the way. I think you are right... it's the constant going for it. You can tell me about the loaded system that we have waiting in the wings. I sure hope you are right but I see no evidence of our past loaded systems production on July 31, 2025.      

I don't disagree that rebuild may be the best answer... but I'm very hesitant to trust this front office with the rebuild because rebuilding requires development and at the very least... thus far... this front office has chosen to limit the numbers of farm raised talent. 

I've often said that I will judge this front office on development. I may not be ready to judge this trade but I am ready to judge the development. It hasn't been good.     

Our Farm system has consistently been one of the worst until last year.  Other than Lewis, Lee, and now Jenkins.  The difference is we really have some pitchers with some high extremely high ceilings.  You need to find that elite starter.  Its the hardest thing to find in baseball.  We are finally taking some swings to try to find one.  

[LA Vikes Fan]

Here's something interesting. If you survey the current landscape after the trades so far, who is the best relief pitcher on the market? I think number one is Griffin Jax, and Brock Stewart and Danny Cloumbe are also in the top 10 available and maybe the top 5.  There are some teams still looking for relief help and I would have to think they are burning up the phone lines to Minnesota to see if they can get Jax and/or Coloumbe, with Stewart as a fallback. There may be an opportunity to really sell high on these guys.

Maybe that was the brilliant strategy all along. Sell Duran early, which panics teams like the Mets and Padres to make their deals early, and then leaves the Twins holding the best available relief assets for the teams left without a chair. The Dodgers, Cubs, Tigers, Yankees, Mariners, Rangers, and Blue Jays are all still looking for relief help. Maybe we can get that blocked first baseman or outfielder from Chicago, Long or Cassie, or maybe even Harry Ford plus from Seattle for Jax +1 of the other two. Hey, if were going to do a rebuild we may as well go for it.

I think Coloumbe is a lock to be traded today, and the odds on Jax or Stewart going is about 65%. I think the chances that all three are traded are at least 50-50. Could be an interesting day 

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, bunsen82 said:

Our Farm system has consistently been one of the worst until last year.  Other than Lewis, Lee, and now Jenkins.  The difference is we really have some pitchers with some high extremely high ceilings.  You need to find that elite starter.  Its the hardest thing to find in baseball.  We are finally taking some swings to try to find one.  

Not by the rankings. They've been middle of the pack since Ryan left. Mostly driven by lots of depth of good prospects, not great ones. Consolidating decent to good prospects into one good player with control would have been a good idea....

[Battle ur tail off]

I don't like this trade. You have a guy that's a hammer and throws the ball harder than most if not all pitchers in MLB. He needs to bring back a 100% sure thing with 2.5 years of control left. Period. There should be no maybes when you are trading a guy like this with that much control. Just keep him if you don't get a killer!

#4 starters are worth nothing. Zero. Grab any decent pitcher in your own system and they can be #4-5 guys. You don't trade for these guys unless they are coming back as return for expiring contract guys. 

It must be the catcher I guess, but at 19 years old, man it's a risk.  

Giving up studs for non-studs is a great way to be a terrible baseball team. I obviously don't know how these 2 will pan out, but what I do know is that arms like Duran don't come around all the time...

[Riverbrian]

12 minutes ago, bunsen82 said:

Our Farm system has consistently been one of the worst until last year.  Other than Lewis, Lee, and now Jenkins.  The difference is we really have some pitchers with some high extremely high ceilings.  You need to find that elite starter.  Its the hardest thing to find in baseball.  We are finally taking some swings to try to find one.  

It depends on the source. Some will say 7th ranked while another says 21st. Highly Ranked... Low Ranked. Doesn't matter to me. Sufficient numbers are not getting through in comparison to their peers and I'm not ready to declare Jenkins developed and contributing until he is developed and contributing and Jenkins will not be enough. 

I have no opinion on the loadedness of our players currently in the farm system.

I have an opinion on what the farm system has produced overall over the past 8 years of time. 

I agree that we have had some pitching development success. We have finally stopped patching holes with the Bundy types.

I believe that the offensive side of the development ledger has been woeful. I don't know why but it has been.  

 

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, chopper0080 said:

Mason Miller return making Twins deal look rougher

Yeah... but you have to consider the possibility that the Padres didn't offer DeVries to the Twins for Duran.

You have to consider the possibility that the Padres liked Sears and we didn't have a Sears equivalent. 

This is what selling looks like. You make your phone calls, you answer the phone calls and you choose the best deal offered. Trades always take two to tango... it's not like walking into the supermarket aisle and grabbing a can of soup. The owner of the soup and you will have to negotiate the price.   

[USAFChief]

7 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

 

I believe that the offensive side of the development ledger has been woeful. I don't know why but it has been.  

 

Concur

[mickster]

1 hour ago, chopper0080 said:

Mason Miller return making Twins deal look rougher

Miller has twice the amount of team control - should bring back more

 

[jorgenswest]

33 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I didn't think the As did any better than Minnesota. Maybe worse even. 

I really believe there is a huge difference between a #3 prospect and number #56. The #56 is closer to the #300 than number in value. Players with that elite prospect status rarely get traded. Elite players with three or more years of service time rarely get traded.the A’s and Padres found that match.

[USAFChief]

1 minute ago, Riverbrian said:

This is what selling looks like. You make your phone calls, you answer the phone calls and you choose the best deal offered. 

Agreed, with the caveat I dont have to agree this was the best deal available, nor that if it was, there was some imperative still in place to sell Duran. 

It'd be malpractice not to sell expiring contracts this deadline. On a massive scale. Sell, sell, sell. Sell at a discount, if necessary. 

But that's not Duran. Or Jax. Or Stewart. Ryan. 

Sell sell sell those guys only at a profit. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, jorgenswest said:

I really believe there is a huge difference between a #3 prospect and number #56. The #56 is closer to the #300 than number in value. Players with that elite prospect status rarely get traded. Elite players with three or more years of service time rarely get traded.the A’s and Padres found that match.

The A's included another pitcher in the deal.....this isn't one pitcher for one prospect or two. The A's RP has 2 more years of control, and costs A LOT less in salary for the next couple years. 

[USAFChief]

5 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

I really believe there is a huge difference between a #3 prospect and number #56. 

Agree, with the caveat someone in A ball or lower really has no business being ranked as the #3 prospect in baseball. 

I mean, its all just opinion, and IMO prospects in general are wildly overvalued, but ranking an 18 or 19 year old in A ball is just too difficult to have much meaning. If they're really the 3rd best player in the minors they should be playing in the majors. 

[Riverbrian]

21 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Agreed, with the caveat I dont have to agree this was the best deal available, nor that if it was, there was some imperative still in place to sell Duran. 

It'd be malpractice not to sell expiring contracts this deadline. On a massive scale. Sell, sell, sell. Sell at a discount, if necessary. 

But that's not Duran. Or Jax. Or Stewart. Ryan. 

Sell sell sell those guys only at a profit. 

 I agree that all expiring contracts should be sold and those who are not due to diminshed value or interest should be cut to clear space. 

And I agree that the Twins do not have to move anybody who is under team control. To be or not to be in regards to Duran, Jax, Stewart or Ryan was and is a legitimate consideration in these debates.  

And I agree that you don't have to like the deal based on whatever path you took to get you to that opinion. I assume you came by that opinion honestly much like the front office did. 

I'm just saying that this is what selling looks like.

You can say sell and many including I will agree with you but this is what it looks like. The Degree, size and scope of the sale is undetermined and debatable, the prices paid for each sale is undetermined and debatable before the sell mode conclusion is drawn by any of us. When you ask for rain, you might get too little, the right amount or the valley is flooded and you are sopping up the basement. 

Or no rain at all and only cacti growing in your Tucson back yard.  

I'm comfortable in my neutral-ness while I wait the future results of development necessary to make these deals definitely good or bad.  

[Mike Sixel]

I'm at the following space:

I like both prospects.

I don't like the trade given where the TWins are right now competively.

I don't like all the risk taken on.

I would have wanted one more prospect (a good one) back to mitigate more of the risk.

I'm 100% certain salary played a huge role in this decision. 

[Irishman]

6 hours ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

I need Falvey to give me a reason to renew my season package. So far, not good

So, why come to watch lousy team?    They are not that good team.  I won't come to watch until Pohlad family sell the team.  

[Woof Bronzer]

2 hours ago, bunsen82 said:

we have a front office that is completely restricted by ownership.  Meaning in the next 1-2 years,  I don't see us getting the financial support to actually put a winning team on the field.  

Twins have the highest payroll in the division.  Higher too than the Brewers, who have the best record in ball.  Ownership sucks but the problems go deeper.  

[twinstalker]

7 hours ago, wabene said:

Did anyone on this board have a clue about what the Twins had gotten when they acquired Joe Ryan?

Yes, I had drafted Ryan in many of my leagues in spring to summer 2021.  He was good but scouting reports were nervous.  What he is now, though, is a product of Twins development along with his positive traits that made it happen.  But I liked him a lot, and what he immediately (first few years) was with the Twins is something I expected.  The growth from there with new pitches is not really something you predict.  But yeah, I was head over heels with that trade.