Rocco Baldelli, Derek Falvey Will Return in Their Roles with Twins in 2025

[chpettit19]

22 minutes ago, mrcharlie said:

Re: Kelly.  He got the most out of his roster because he would put them in a position to succeed.  He got clutch performances out of Laudner and Bush, for instance while they struggled to hit consistently.  I believe they had confidence when it mattered as a result of Kelly not putting them in spots.  However, to see Rocco keep pinch-hitting with Margot and calling on Theilbar or others when their body language said,  "yipes!" 

He did, or those are the memories that have stuck with you?

Tim Laudner career quad slash: .225/.292/.391/.682
2 outs RISP: .209/.316/.373/.689
Late and close games: .181/.251/.321/.571

Randy Bush career quad slash: .251/.334/.413/.747
2 outs RISP: .231/.359/.344/.703
Late and close games: .254/.346/.401/.747

Laudner was worse in clutch situations while Bush was slightly worse or the same. And Randy Bush was platooned like crazy. Exactly how Rocco and this FO regime would've handled him. 3362 PAs against righties. 119 against lefties.

And, as @Mike Sixel and I have both pointed out, Tom Kelly had a losing record. He had 10 full seasons where he finished under .500 and only 5 where he finished over .500. That's him getting "the most out of his roster because he put them in a position to succeed?" Finishing below .500 while platooning the heck out of one of your examples and absolutely not getting the other one to perform in the clutch? That's your "leader of men."

[h2oface]

4 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

After the fact, I agree they weren't great, but there are still quite a few playing in the majors, heck one has just set the record for winning a batting title with three different teams and one just won 15 games as a rookie.

 I am talking about the time. Maybe ERod is always hurt, Jenkins flames out and Festa and Matthews never work out. I hope they all end of hall of famers, but to pretend saying a system that was ranked fairly high that failed is better, worse of even with the system that is still unproven is better is a fools errand.

Hey! But we got a somewhat erratic career (and this season) 4 ERA pitcher for the batting champ, Arraez (who won 2 more titles since). And they still tell us that Lopez is an ace, and give him Pablo Day every time he pitches at home and sell two different colors of jerseys to the suckers followers. That's some kind of keen maneuvering.

[h2oface]

13 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I agree, I don't enjoy this brand of baseball either, but if they were winning with it, the fans would put up with it. (It is like watching Lakeville South or Elk River play high school football, it is terrible to watch but if they are winning the fans will put up with it, but if they don't win, the fans will be calling for the coaches head)

Maybe. I never like or liked it. Even when they win. I absolutely hated the classless sausage and the selfies. Just like I don't like cheaters being heroes on our team. I never like bad umpiring, never ever, even if it goes in our teams favor. But yes, I have to put up with it. That's what you get when the new set of strangers are hired and in it for the personal reasons and to improve their career resume when you have been a fan since the Senators became the Twins and came to Minnesota in 1961. 

[DJL44]

11 hours ago, h2oface said:

Hey! But we got a somewhat erratic career (and this season) 4 ERA pitcher for the batting champ, Arraez (who won 2 more titles since). And they still tell us that Lopez is an ace, and give him Pablo Day every time he pitches at home and sell two different colors of jerseys to the suckers followers. That's some kind of keen maneuvering.

I'm thrilled they traded their no defense, no power, 1 WAR in 2024, batting champ for a top of the rotation pitcher like Pablo Lopez.

[chpettit19]

29 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I'm thrilled they traded their no defense, no power, 1 WAR in 2024, batting champ for a top of the rotation pitcher like Pablo Lopez.

I do really miss Luis, though. He's fun to watch, even if that was a good trade for the Twins.

[DJL44]

11 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I do really miss Luis, though. He's fun to watch, even if that was a good trade for the Twins.

I agree that he's fun to watch, even if he was a less valuable player than Carlos Santana this season.

[KirbyDome89]

21 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

I'm definitely not covering for him and I'm not claiming he's improved anything. I'm not even saying they should keep him. Just that he seems interested in changing what didn't work in prior seasons. Like in 2023 when the team swung for the fences but led the league in strikeouts. This year they did neither. Not really an upgrade, but a clear attempt to change things. Which is better than doing the same thing that fails over and over again.

From what I can tell, Levine still loves the zero ceiling player acquisitions and Baldelli has managed the team the same way he has since he got here.

If both cases are true, I don't understand why we'd assume those things aren't green lit from above. If Levine and Baldelli refuse to deviate from the path of destruction season after season, yet remain employed, I'd argue Falvey is just as guilty of doing the same thing that fails over and over again. 

[nicksaviking]

11 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

If both cases are true, I don't understand why we'd assume those things aren't green lit from above. If Levine and Baldelli refuse to deviate from the path of destruction season after season, yet remain employed, I'd argue Falvey is just as guilty of doing the same thing that fails over and over again. 

For sure, if he's the one dragging his feet about those changes. keeping them is on him. We'll see about Levine, I suspect he's gone, whether he's a scapegoat or deserved (probably both). Paying a second manager is likely a Joe Pohald thing, because in these situations the manager is almost always the scapegoat. Not that we'll ever know.

[Dave Borton]

Love to see Levine get his own CBO/GM chance. Giants?

[Markdumont25]

I'm not among those that think Rocco is an impassible manager. I think he has his strengths and weaknesses but is probably decent overall. However, after a collapse of this magnitude where we found the most depressingly creative ways to lose, many of which included a complete breakdown of the fundamentals, I think that needs to fall on Roccos shoulders. Since ownership won't fire themselves and their desire for marginal profit gains over serving their community and fielding a team serious about competing, then Rocco should have been the one to go.

[Riverbrian]

16 hours ago, Dave Borton said:

Love to see Levine get his own CBO/GM chance. Giants?

Sounds like they have already appointed Buster Posey.

Pulled Buster out of a board of directors chair... which is interesting because the board of directors are 6 individuals who have most likely made Farhan Zaidi squirm for the past 6 years. Now Posey can feel the heat he once provided. 

I'm going to guess that the Giants will go a completely different direction under Posey since the other direction required a change. 

If the job was still open and the search on going. Lavine replacing Zaidi would be like Mary Kate Olsen replacing Ashley.

The Twins and Giants have been very similar in approach. The Giants having much more money available being the primary difference. 

Lavine would have to convince the Giants in the interview that it's a good thing that he did the same thing in Minnesota because it didn't work here either. 

 

[h2oface]

23 hours ago, DJL44 said:

I'm thrilled they traded their no defense, no power, 1 WAR in 2024, batting champ for a top of the rotation pitcher like Pablo Lopez.

Well, I know what I like. These days, WAR lovers will be WAR lovers, I guess, and define worth through those special WAR glasses.. I do hope that a top of the rotation pitcher standard for all Twins fans will become better than a 4 career ( and this season) ERA pitcher. This season, again, of course, it wasn’t. 

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Sounds like they have already appointed Buster Posey.

Pulled Buster out of a board of directors chair... which is interesting because the board of directors are 6 individuals who have most likely made Farhan Zaidi squirm for the past 6 years. Now Posey can feel the heat he once provided. 

I'm going to guess that the Giants will go a completely different direction under Posey since the other direction required a change. 

If the job was still open and the search on going. Lavine replacing Zaidi would be like Mary Kate Olsen replacing Ashley.

The Twins and Giants have been very similar in approach. The Giants having much more money available being the primary difference. 

Lavine would have to convince the Giants in the interview that it's a good thing that he did the same thing in Minnesota because it didn't work here either. 

 

I like this quote from Posey:

"Today’s game is so much about meshing what your eyes see and instincts are with what the data is telling you.”

 

Yes!

You don't have to remove Matthews just because Durhan is coming up for the third time.  You don't have to PH Manny Margot simply because 150 years of baseball history says LH hitters don't hit LH pitching as well as RH hitters do.

 

 

[Dave Borton]

3 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I like this quote from Posey:

"Today’s game is so much about meshing what your eyes see and instincts are with what the data is telling you.”

 

 

Same approach he employed in calling his games for 12 yrs. Bright guy who can bring a crisp set of skills, honed on the field, to the FO.

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I like this quote from Posey:

"Today’s game is so much about meshing what your eyes see and instincts are with what the data is telling you.”

 

Yes!

You don't have to remove Matthews just because Durhan is coming up for the third time.  You don't have to PH Manny Margot simply because 150 years of baseball history says LH hitters don't hit LH pitching as well as RH hitters do.

 

 

Margot 0 for 30 as a pinch hitter kinda shoots a hole in the value of the data alone approach.   

 

[Linus]

Yea I think there is another level of understanding still out there regarding analytics. I don’t have the answer but perhaps is a combination of data and human judgement or maybe it’s a greater understanding about the analytics themselves. 

[mrcharlie]

On 9/30/2024 at 6:06 PM, chpettit19 said:

He did, or those are the memories that have stuck with you?

Tim Laudner career quad slash: .225/.292/.391/.682
2 outs RISP: .209/.316/.373/.689
Late and close games: .181/.251/.321/.571

Randy Bush career quad slash: .251/.334/.413/.747
2 outs RISP: .231/.359/.344/.703
Late and close games: .254/.346/.401/.747

Laudner was worse in clutch situations while Bush was slightly worse or the same. And Randy Bush was platooned like crazy. Exactly how Rocco and this FO regime would've handled him. 3362 PAs against righties. 119 against lefties.

And, as @Mike Sixel and I have both pointed out, Tom Kelly had a losing record. He had 10 full seasons where he finished under .500 and only 5 where he finished over .500. That's him getting "the most out of his roster because he put them in a position to succeed?" Finishing below .500 while platooning the heck out of one of your examples and absolutely not getting the other one to perform in the clutch? That's your "leader of men."

Yes. I have my memories.   Kelly and McPhail worked well together to get the must out of marginal players that were brought in to round out the roster.  Shane Mack may be a better example for your decerning stat line.  I will submit this... Kelly got more out of his troops with less talent that Rocco. Period.  

[chpettit19]

17 minutes ago, mrcharlie said:

Yes. I have my memories.   Kelly and McPhail worked well together to get the must out of marginal players that were brought in to round out the roster.  Shane Mack may be a better example for your decerning stat line.  I will submit this... Kelly got more out of his troops with less talent that Rocco. Period.  

Shane Mack played his prime years in Minnesota and his numbers were slightly better than his career numbers, but not significantly so.

I'm sorry if your memories don't match the actual results. I'm never going to convince you that Kelly wasn't some amazing manager. I gave you his career managerial numbers. If having 10 of 15 seasons be losing seasons is him getting "more out of his troops with less talent" it's hard to image the incredible lack of talent those teams had. If getting more still leads to a losing season they must have had basically no talent. Maybe that's true. But probably shouldn't praise McPhail if that's the case. Can't have it both ways. Either they lacked talent and that's why they lost even though Kelly was maximizing them which means McPhail was not good at building rosters or Kelly wasn't anything special and he didn't really improve "marginal players" like you claim.

Enjoy your memories. The 91 World Series were some of my earliest life memories. It was awesome. But your memories aren't more accurate than the actual results. I'm sorry that the actual results don't match your memories.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, mrcharlie said:

Yes. I have my memories.   Kelly and McPhail worked well together to get the must out of marginal players that were brought in to round out the roster.  Shane Mack may be a better example for your decerning stat line.  I will submit this... Kelly got more out of his troops with less talent that Rocco. Period.  

Kelly had a losing record. Rocco has the highest winning percentage of any manager of the Twins. I'm not here to defend Rocco, but I'm not sure how to make those statements add up. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

On 10/1/2024 at 8:52 AM, DJL44 said:

I'm thrilled they traded their no defense, no power, 1 WAR in 2024, batting champ for a top of the rotation pitcher like Pablo Lopez.

“Thrilled”.. You also called Jose Salas a stud. 

Anyway, the incompetence of the Pohlads would be easier to digest if we had smarter people running this team. 

[DJL44]

18 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

“Thrilled”.. You also called Jose Salas a stud. 

Somebody is digging deep in the archives. It's easy to be wrong about prospects. Most people are, including major league front offices. I am very happy with how the Lopez/Arraez trade worked out even though Salas has not turned into anything at all. Arraez has turned into a DH who only hits singles. If he was still on the Twins they would non-tender him this offseason.

[ashbury]

48 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

If he was still on the Twins they would non-tender him this offseason.

False.  They would trade him to some other team for pitching, because you can always find someone who overvalues empty batting average.  😀

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

Somebody is digging deep in the archives.

Not even close. You were very vocal about it. 

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

It's easy to be wrong about prospects. Most people are, including major league front offices.

Also not even close.

Just because you can’t do or see something doesn’t mean no one else can.

“Easy to be wrong” is not the right way to explain it. 

44 minutes ago, ashbury said:

empty batting average

It’s a shame that base hits and table setters are overrated in today’s game. 

It would be nice to know what the Twins saw in Margot and Julien as leadoff batters this year. Any ideas? 

[ashbury]

3 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

It’s a shame that base hits and table setters are overrated in today’s game.

For all his table setting, he tied for 39th in the majors in runs scored this year, playing for an above-average offense most of the year.  Indeed the 88 he scored while still a Twin remains his high-water mark. After a while it stops being a fluke.

And of course setting the table is only half the job of scoring runs.  He does pretty much diddly squat at the other half, driving them in.

I don't hate the guy - he was a lot of fun to have as a Twin - but as a run-scoring force he remains overrated.

[Hubie29]

It's as simple as Kelly "knew how to manage". Rocco is completely on the opposite side of that spectrum. He doesn't have a clue.