Is Baldelli the worst Manager in Twins/Senators history?

[TopTwinsFan]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Bone to pick: Rocco's worst managing job wasn't Saturday in KC.

Three weeks ago in Texas Rocco sat on his hands watching Jorge Alcala turn a 4-0 7th inning lead into a 5-4 deficit. With a three or so minute delay included while Texas ballpark security searched for Matt Wallner's glove over the left field fence. 

As bad as removing Ober was, that was worse. Way worse.

And if you believe in momentum, or anything like it, that's the point at which this current collapse started.

 

 

That was a huge moment. Another moment where Rocco's decision making defied all common sense. I'm sure some of the players went home that night wondering what he was doing.

On Saturday, if you didnt know any better you would think he was trying to lose.

Then he wouldn't address the media and apparently snapped at the team and blamed them when his incompetence was the shiny centerpiece of Saturday's debacle. 

[Aggies7]

7 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I don't think Rocco is extreme to that end. I hear quotes all the time about how the coaches are working with players on hitting, pitching, etc. They're working while they're at the ballpark. I wonder if they're always working on the right things. The prep work ahead of games is an area where I think Rocco does fine although the players may be spread too thin preparing to play multiple positions. There is only so much time in the day. You can't prep to play every position on the field.

I really hope they don't fire Rocco and promote Toby Gardenhire. The rookies have not been prepared to succeed in the field. That preparation should be happening in the minor leagues so they're ready for game situations when they get to the majors.

There is absolutely something wrong organizationally. Guys clearly lack the fundamentals of the game when they come up. But that may be something that is happening across the game starting when players are young. I think the explosion of travel ball and the obsession with numbers may have something to do with that too. Hey you threw it to the wrong base but at least your throw velo was outstanding

[TopTwinsFan]

4 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Eh, I disagree. I think Baldelli mostly does a good job of keeping guys motivated and running a clubhouse. I don't particularly care for his in-game decisions.

Tom Kelly won a World Series in 1991. By 1993, the Twins sucked and mostly continued to suck until the 2000s (aka. the rest of the 90s).

Those 90s teams were trash and absolutely a burden to watch. This team is frustrating, but still pretty good. I'll take the "pretty good" every time.

I just keep fantasizing about having a good team AND a good manager.

Preparing for the moment Baldellis does something you or I would never do in the 8th inning of a playoff game is no fun. 

We have seen his playoff managing in 2019, 2020 and last year. It was nice he didn't over manage those 2 wins he finally got us. But with the display of incompetence he has shown recently, I'm prepared for the worse.

[TopTwinsFan]

4 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

This is an absolutely ridiculous premise. The Senators had like 50 losing seasons in a row.

But they won it all 100 years ago!

And damn do I hope I am wrong , but Rocco will NEVER even take us to the World Series.

Its also possible he ruins our season like he ruined any chance to win Saturday or in the 'Alcala game' with incompetence unmatched in my Twins lifetime in a playoff game. 

Look at me as your Twins angel trying to save our season while we still can. 

Even if this team can crawl into the playoffs after this rough Baldiball induced stretch. Can you really trust him to make the right calls when it matters most? Of course not. 

That being said. I have been a Twins fan for 40 years. There is no chance to they would get a new manager to save the season. There is a better chance we don't make the playoffs and Rocco returns. 😞

[TopTwinsFan]

27 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Eh, I disagree. I think Baldelli mostly does a good job of keeping guys motivated and running a clubhouse. I don't particularly care for his in-game decisions.

Tom Kelly won a World Series in 1991. By 1993, the Twins sucked and mostly continued to suck until the 2000s (aka. the rest of the 90s).

Those 90s teams were trash and absolutely a burden to watch. This team is frustrating, but still pretty good. I'll take the "pretty good" every time.

If these Twins were as devoid of talent as the 90s Twins, it wouldn't matter if Rocco costs us 6 or 7 loses.

It matters when you are in playoff contention. And when you are (hopefully) in the playoffs. God help us then. Trying to win despite the manager is really hard. See Saturday. 

[cHawk]

59 minutes ago, TopTwinsFan said:

Baldellis lifetime record is far superior to Kelly's. Doesn't anyone think that makes Rocco a better manager?

Do you think either of the guys I mentioned in my previous reply are better than Baldelli?

[TopTwinsFan]

I'm self diagnosing:

PTBD

Post Traumatic Baldelli Disorder.

Enjoying baseball when someone who is supposed to help your team has hurt it one too many times. 

I was so traumatized by what Baldelli did to my beloved team on Saturday that I haven't been able to watch since. That's a first for me. He gave me a disorder.

[TopTwinsFan]

6 minutes ago, cHawk said:

Do you think either of the guys I mentioned in my previous reply are better than Baldelli?

For some reason I don't see it. Which guys?

[cHawk]

1 minute ago, TopTwinsFan said:

For some reason I don't see it. Which guys?

Patsy Donovan and Malachi Kittridge.

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

Rocco's jumped the shark.

He's been their friend. He's been a corpse in the dugout. As a last resort, he tried to be a hard ass and the Twins responded with one of their worst losses of the season considering the opponent and the importance for the wild card race.

Somewhat in his defense, 6 years is a long-ish time for a manager or coach in professional sports. He's being tuned out. And it shows. What happens after this season is up to the Pohlad's.

[JADBP]

Rocco is NOT the head coach to be their best friend.  
 

But, again, I repeat:  it’s very hard to be consistent when the coaching is so inconsistent! 

[TheLeviathan]

Observations:

1. We have so many of these threads going right now.  How many places do people who are irrationally upset with Rocco do we need?  

2.  Yes....it is irrational.  A rational person could disagree with Rocco at times (perhaps even most of the time), but also appreciate what he does well.  Clearly he isn't always right any more than he is always wrong.  Yet the prominent posters we have here (and in the other eleventy threads like this) are never posting about good moves made.  No recognition that perhaps Jax is this good because of his usage.  Or a successful pinch hit.  Or the fact that this team had a sterling record for months when leading late.  Do we see any of that acknowledged?  Do we even see thoughtful criticism?  The answer is quite plainly...no.  It's just the same tripe shoveled out again and again.  Irrational hate is the only apt description at this point. 

3. Yet these folks who have completely abandoned reason want (demand) others engage with their completely ridiculous arguments.  When those brave souls do try to point out facts about real-time meltdowns, manager-front office synergy, or reasonable ideas why the decision was made....there is no thoughtful discussion.  When @ashbury does a frame by frame breakdown to refute an asinine suggestion for Royce Lewis...is there acknowledgement?  Nope.  Just banging the same drum.  This toxic bunch of trolls wants nothing to do with discussion.  They want to spew venom, get some thumbs up, and then rally and harass any counterpoints.  @chpettit19is doing a fantastic job in the other thread.  @Brock Beauchamphere.  What are they getting for their efforts?  Good discussion?  Nope.

4.  Contrary to the beliefs of these trolls...it is possible to disagree with Rocco while also doing so fairly.  I would've left Ober in the other night.  At the same time...we're talking a pitcher that didn't even start in the rotation last year for workload concerns.  And he was taken out for the closer.  I'm sorry, but I can never blame the manager when the closer comes in and melts down.  Would I have done it differently?  Probably.  Does it make Rocco's choice worthy of meltdowns?  Absolutely not.  He went from his best starter to a plan for his two best relievers to come in.  If that plan results in a loss...it ain't on the manager even if I would've gone a different route.  At the very least, it isn't an unjustifiable path.

5. Rocco has a thinned out roster with exactly two good starters and two (ish?) relievers and a precipitous drop off after them.  Including many of the other spots going to rookies.  He has a lineup full of guys we either weren't counting on to be starters, abandoned at some point, or are here by sheer desperation.  The only regulars in the lineup at this point are Santana, Lewis, and Jeffers.  That's it.  Yet we're leading in the wildcard.  He may have cost us games, but he clearly is doing some things right to weather that kind of a storm and still have us in contention.

6.  Constant focus on Rocco detracts from the real villains of this year: the Pohlads.

7. To pretend that he's a terrible manager of the clubhouse despite direct evidence to the contrary is the definition of trolling.  You have zero evidence for your suggestion, yet you claim it as if it's true. 

It isn't possible to engage rationally with opinions that possess no rationality and attempt none.  You are griping.  Not discussing.  Not criticizing.  Griping.

[Squirrel]

2 hours ago, TopTwinsFan said:

The Twins were horrendous most of the nineties, but in my opinion more fun to watch. A manager who gets the most out of his players like Kelly who puts their players in a position to win and succeed is so much more fun than the opposite - Baldiball. 

You do have options if the team is simply not fun to watch ... don't watch. Seriously. I'm as much a fan as anyone here, but I am not giving the team my money or my viewership if I don't like it. doesn't mean I don't keep up with things, I do. But, my time is more valuable and I do have other things to do. For me, and I've said this before, when ownership cut payroll, that was the absolute worst travesty of the off-season, and set a tone of things to come ... which, imo, is far worse than any of yours or others' complaints about the manager.

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, cHawk said:

Patsy Donovan and Malachi Kittridge.

Donovan always left his starters in too long and had a bad haircut.

Kittridge I don't remember. 

[Squirrel]

2 hours ago, TopTwinsFan said:

No, if a team has playoff caliber talent, I want them to get the most out of it. You know like winning a world series as Kelly did- twice.

Does anyone really think Baldelli is getting the most out of this club?

The team holds a playoff spot despite him, not because of him. 

I actually think he is, mostly. And that isn't me defending anything because I've made my opinions clear on just how much I think the manager brings to the team in terms of wins and losses on any given day. This team is mediocre, maybe slightly above average. The pitching depth, both starting and BP are sparse, and with your best players spending big chunks of time on the IL, yes, he's managing with 2nd, 3rd, and 4th string players. And a few of those some wondered why they were there to begin with. (Farmer anyone?) But, oh, payroll. So behind the few good players we did have, is mediocre. Because we 'can't afford' more. This has never been a great team. Potential maybe, if the cards fell right, but I guess I never expected them to be where they are now. Hoped for better, thought the potential could be there, but was also guarded.

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, TopTwinsFan said:

That was a huge moment. Another moment where Rocco's decision making defied all common sense. I'm sure some of the players went home that night wondering what he was doing.

On Saturday, if you didnt know any better you would think he was trying to lose.

Then he wouldn't address the media and apparently snapped at the team and blamed them when his incompetence was the shiny centerpiece of Saturday's debacle. 

Bringing in his 2 best relievers is "trying to lose?" If bringing in Jhoan Duran and Griffin Jax to a 2 run game in the 8th or 9th inning is "trying to lose" I'm not sure what any manager could possibly do to show they're trying to win.

I didn't like pulling Ober. I would've left him in. But let's have a little perspective here. He didn't put Okert or Richards in there. He went to 2 guys who are supposed to be amongst the very best in all of baseball. He over managed that game, but let's be realistic about what he did. It's pretty easily defensible decision even if it's not the one many of us would've made.

[TopTwinsFan]

4 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Nonconcur. 

A MLB manager has time to warm up a pitcher in the space of the 3 batter minimum if he chooses to do so. It happens all the time. One sauntering trip to the mound is enough. 

And in this case, THERE WAS A LENGTHY DELAY while they searched for Wallner's glove after the FIRST dinger.

In any case, a MLB manager who can't figure out how to slow the game enough to allow for a reliever to warm, which doesn't take that long, deserves to be fired fir that alone. 

He sat on his *** by his own choosing, not because events prevented anything else.

The Twins are not an organization that allows much discourse. However, I remember seeing Maki beg Baldelli to take Alcala out after he had given up 3 or 4 runs. Baldelli, in his infinite lack of wisdom refused.

Alcala hasnt been the same since and the Twins have only won a couple or so games since that day. We will never know how the Twins would have reacted if they had a good manager that night. Or what would have happened if we had a good manager Saturday. The Twins are still seeing the reverberations of his crushing- manager guided- loss Saturday now. And one way or another, it could reverberate through the rest of the season. 

 

[TopTwinsFan]

Baldelli couldn't explain to the press or the fans why he made his stunningly horrendous decisions on Saturday night. Obviously.

However, has he had to explain to anyone why Ober was taken out after 83 pitches or why his closer who is an excellent closer but struggles in non-close situations was brought in. When your manager makes decisions that delight the opponent, well, that Baldi ball.

Some markets wouldnt stand for getting no answer to why Rocco made these choices. Why? because some fans like me who are extremly emotionally invested like to be invested for a reason. Not just a mindless member of the Twins cult. Or pretending like the last of these horrendous decisions is just around the corner as long as Rocco is still manager.

Here, were just supposed to forget about it and buy tickets for tonights game. Like forced amnesia.

Mark Rosen was on Common show earlier and in his gentle, easy going way said the Twins are unwatchable. 

i agree. Baldiball.

[TopTwinsFan]

1 hour ago, JADBP said:

Rocco is NOT the head coach to be their best friend.  
 

But, again, I repeat:  it’s very hard to be consistent when the coaching is so inconsistent! 

And when you do pitch like a complete Stud- Thank you Bailey Ober- you have to look over your shoulder to see if your manager will try to ruin it again.

Guys like that who pitch their a** off make baseball so fun to watch. I love the individual competion. But its a team sport and the manager has a knack for hurting our team.

[TopTwinsFan]

Maybe time to go back to the 70's and have Correa as player/manager. 

-Correa couldnt put together worse lineups. Guessing soon the lineups would have a regular, comfortable feel to the, not something that looks like it came out of a computer program.

He is emotionally far more engaging than Rocco

-The guys would play their a** off for him. 

-I would be shocked if he managed the bullpen as poorly (ive never seen a manager manage the starters removal and bullpen entrance/usage worse than Rocco)

[TheLeviathan]

3 minutes ago, TopTwinsFan said:

Maybe time to go back to the 70's and have Correa as player/manager. 

-Correa couldnt put together worse lineups. Guessing soon the lineups would have a regular, comfortable feel to the, not something that looks like it came out of a computer program.

He is emotionally far more engaging than Rocco

-The guys would play their a** off for him. 

-I would be shocked if he managed the bullpen as poorly (ive never seen a manager manage the starters removal and bullpen entrance/usage worse than Rocco)

At some point, I'm just going to assume this is satire and ask you to continue to perform your act in your head.  

Then again, this is what the troll horde has wrought.

[TopTwinsFan]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

I actually think he is, mostly. And that isn't me defending anything because I've made my opinions clear on just how much I think the manager brings to the team in terms of wins and losses on any given day. This team is mediocre, maybe slightly above average. The pitching depth, both starting and BP are sparse, and with your best players spending big chunks of time on the IL, yes, he's managing with 2nd, 3rd, and 4th string players. And a few of those some wondered why they were there to begin with. (Farmer anyone?) But, oh, payroll. So behind the few good players we did have, is mediocre. Because we 'can't afford' more. This has never been a great team. Potential maybe, if the cards fell right, but I guess I never expected them to be where they are now. Hoped for better, thought the potential could be there, but was also guarded.

Unlike you, I think the manager is an exremely important part of the game. At least if he is truly allowed to manage, which the very carefully protected Twins front office says he is (i can only guess if thats true).

A great manager can help a good or very good team, which this Twins team could be this yeare, to win a Championship.

A manager with a poor skill set like Rocco can keep his team from making the playoffs or kill a playoff run before its started, or during.

Great leaders make a difference.

Horrendous managers make a difference.

[TopTwinsFan]

2 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

At some point, I'm just going to assume this is satire and ask you to continue to perform your act in your head.  

Then again, this is what the troll horde has wrought.

Its not satire and I am not a troll.

I am a HUGE Twins fan.

I know, its not easy to hear that the emperor has no clothes, but he doesnt. All you have to do is look to see how naked he is.

Disliking me or calling me names wont make Baldelli a good manager.

[TopTwinsFan]

53 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Bringing in his 2 best relievers is "trying to lose?" If bringing in Jhoan Duran and Griffin Jax to a 2 run game in the 8th or 9th inning is "trying to lose" I'm not sure what any manager could possibly do to show they're trying to win.

I didn't like pulling Ober. I would've left him in. But let's have a little perspective here. He didn't put Okert or Richards in there. He went to 2 guys who are supposed to be amongst the very best in all of baseball. He over managed that game, but let's be realistic about what he did. It's pretty easily defensible decision even if it's not the one many of us would've made.

SInce i save myself the agony of watching Baldi ball tonight, i have a minute to answer:

Duran has said that he prefers closing. The Twins have created a huge marketing campaign/show surrounding his closing abilities and statistically he is far superior as a closer. ERA of just over 1 as a closer. ERA of over 5 in no save roles.

Jax has been the setup man and been overall very good in THAT role.

So you take Ober out- stupid. Then you dont put Jax in- stupid. Then when Duran has predictibly been less sccessful than if you had put him in in the 9th to save the game- you put in Jax. 

Its sort of the defninition of wasting good pitching.

I could type more but my fingers are getting sore.

[TopTwinsFan]

I remember when the Vikings had their worst coach in my lifetime, Leslie Frazier, that I was calling for a new coach towards the end of his regime and many Vikings fans felt similar to the Rocco lovers on here. Many of them would still have Frazier as the coach regardless of how the team did in the meantime

And they hated me for pointing out that the franchise was being hurt by his poor coaching.

The good news for the VIkes was that he was a terrible coach of a terrible team so it didnt really matter if the VIkings were 3-13 or 5-11.

However, with the current baseball playoff format and fact that you just need to get in, be well managed and play well and you can win it all, we are forfeiting our chance to win a Championship with the worst Twins manager I have ever seen. And for you trolls out there, i have watched nearly every Twins game for 40 years. so I know a bad manager when I see one. I have never seen a manager comparably bad in my lifetime. Its why i started this thread. 

Seeing some of the Pro-Rocco side on here has also shown me how emotional engament and complicity become one thing for some fans.

[karcherd]

Even before leaving Alcala in too long in Texas, he shouldn't have been in the game to begin with.  It was his fourth appearance in five days.  And it was a four run game, use a low leverage guy and have Alcala warm and ready to go if needed.  

[TheLeviathan]

58 minutes ago, TopTwinsFan said:

Its not satire and I am not a troll.

I am a HUGE Twins fan.

I know, its not easy to hear that the emperor has no clothes, but he doesnt. All you have to do is look to see how naked he is.

Disliking me or calling me names wont make Baldelli a good manager.

You know what else doesn't?  Spamming a message board with griping.

[Mike Sixel]

Go ahead, construct a winning lineup with this roster. Show me what you'd do.

[Craig Arko]

11 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Go ahead, construct a winning lineup with this roster. Show me what you'd do.

Start with spiking the opposition’s Gatorade.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

6 hours ago, TopTwinsFan said:

No, if a team has playoff caliber talent, I want them to get the most out of it. You know like winning a world series as Kelly did- twice.

Does anyone really think Baldelli is getting the most out of this club?

The team holds a playoff spot despite him, not because of him. 

In context of other managers…

I don’t remember Gene Mauch or Billy Gardner specifically. I watched the team, but was too young to follow that close.

both of Miller’s teams gave up by the ASG

9 of TK’s teams were so bad I couldn’t tell if they were actually trying or not.

Those last 4 years of Gardy all gave up before the ASG

Half of Molitor’s teams gave up in the first month.

this is the first Baldelli team where it feels like the team is giving up. 1/6…