Royals 4, Twins 2: Bailey Ober's Brilliant Start Wasted by Bullpen Blow-Up

[DJL44]

5 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

This was the perfect set up for a complete game for Ober.  He has to be frustrated.  At 83 pitches he still had enough to keep rolling

They may have been able to get the 8th inning out of Ober but he wasn't going to pitch the 9th with >95 pitches on the night.

[Western SD Fan]

I could rehash all the comments about Rocco’s game management and how I agree that there are times where an Ouija board would provide a better result. A couple points of levity: At least I’m not a Vikings fan so I don’t have this level of angst on Sunday and I’m glad that JaguarGator (YouTube creator) and his dumb decisions channel segment doesn’t know about Rocco. He could have a channel dedicated to him and not run out of content.

[DJL44]

47 minutes ago, Parfigliano said:

Julien being PH for when he already had 2 hits was due to Rocco's analytics aversion to LH v. LHP.

Also wanted to get Castro's glove into the game for Julien which is entirely defensible with a 2 run lead.

[David Maro]

The last time I looked 2-0 wins the game.Ober was cruising and had not even broke a sweat.He wanted this one more than any other game.He should be telling the FO to trade me this off season.

Let's face it Rocco is not and will not ever be a manager.He doesn't pay attention to the way games are playing out.How can players get better and do better if being pulled as early as 3rd inning.

The best thing to happen to this team is to miss the playoffs.Because it will be short lived.

[DJL44]

4 minutes ago, David Maro said:

The best thing to happen to this team is to miss the playoffs.Because it will be short lived.

You really don't want that.

Joe Pohlad "We didn't make the playoffs and due to that we're going to have to make some cutbacks for the 2025 budget."

[USAFChief]

9 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Also wanted to get Castro's glove into the game for Julien which is entirely defensible with a 2 run lead.

That could have been done without pinch hitting.

And I don't have the numbers in front of me but isn't Castro something like 2 for his last 1 million batting RHed?

 

[thelanges5]

Offense is also back to April levels of production. 
 

KC is #2 in RISP on the season and was 4 for 5 last night. 

MN is #18 in RISP on the season and was 2 for 7 last night. 
 

It’s not too late to start to work on that for this season, but it is definitely something that needs to be addressed in the off-season.

[USAFChief]

5 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

You really don't want that.

Joe Pohlad "We didn't make the playoffs and due to that we're going to have to make some cutbacks for the 2025 budget."

How is that different from "we won a postseason game for the first time in forever...but we're chopping payroll"?

[thelanges5]

Twins in the last 3 weeks are hitting .236/.294/.379 (8th worst in MLB).

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, Blyleven2011 said:

A deflating gutless defeat  , the manager needs to find ways to win with the players he has , he is stubborn as a mule and won'tor can't improvise  ...

Using Duran in the 8th IS improvising. Waiting to use him until the 9th is going by the book. There is plenty to criticize Rocco about, but you can't fault him for "failing to improvise". If anything he's managing too much.

[Rufus]

Baldelli 's handling of the pitching staff is surely enough to cost him his job.  But last nights was probably the worst move since I have seen since Kevin Cash took Blake Snell out of that WS game against the Dodgers in 2020.  You could just see new life pumped back into the Royals. Analytics be damned Ober was totally dominating them, let good enough alone.  Duran has not been effective when coming in non save situations.  

Something also has to be done about the teaching  basics of the game to the young players on this team.  They look worse than a bunch of little leaguers.  A manager in todays game needs to use anayltics I agree.   But they also need to use their gut instincts and manage the old way too.  that wasn't all bad.  

The Twins need a new manager and they need a new system for teaching the basics of the game for the players as they come through the system.   Their devlopment of pitching seems to be on track right now,  they need to do the same for the hitters and fielders

[BillyBallLives]

I noticed it the box score, Duran was credited with his 6th HOLD of the year. 

 

I'm sure his agent will point that out during contract negotiations. 

[cmoss84]

8 hours ago, h2oface said:

Wasn't Andrew Miller that became the new thing, fireman, pitch 1 to 4 innings in any game wherever the game was turning? And put out the fire? Close, hold. or come in the 4th. 2016-17. ALCS MVP 2016 for Cleveland and reliever of year in 2017. So it can happen, and it did for those two years, and them was tried by other teams and others pitchers for a while. A lot of people (here and elsewhere) would never do that. But it was an amazing two years that was out of the box with great success. Miller wasn't that good before or after, but for those two years, it was sure amazing, and brave to implement. I am glad Francona messed with that.

Duran is getting lots of contact no matter when he pitches, now. Seems to be getting lucky more than lights out in his saves, to me.

Miller was awesome. But an entirely different role...and I agree with you...one that we need to fill. I guess Jax is ours. 

[cmoss84]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

What's different? Do closers do backflips before entering the game but 8th inning pitchers do cartwheels?

This is one of those areas where mental toughness actually does matter. If you can prepare for the inning when 9 is on the scoreboard but not when 8 is on the scoreboard and you lose all confidence and determination, then you aren't a mentally tough pitcher. Same goes for pitchers who can pitch when that number is an 8 but not when it is a 9.

Rocco was too clever by half last night. He wouldn't be getting roasted here if Duran had fallen apart in the 9th instead of the 8th. We won't know but it's entirely possible that the Royals were ready for Duran and would have blown him up in the 9th if Ober or Jax pitches a scoreless 8th inning.

Closing ballgames is an art, my friend. Very few humans on the planet do it well...especially for a long period of time.

But last night was about Rocco/Ober. I'd left the stadium if I was Ober. Uber.

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, 1985Fan said:

I thought there was hope for Rocco when lately he has let Wallner, Julien, and Larnach hit against LHP. But no, he has to do something to pull defeat from the jaws of victory. His late inning management is terrible, I don’t care what the stats say. 
If the heavens somehow aligned and miracles (it would take multiple miracles) happened to get the Twins into game 7 of the WS, there is no way a complete 10-inning game 7 happens. Think about the decision Tom Kelly made there and that is the difference between a great manager and Baldelli. 
 

Come on. MLB is different now. There's no team that's letting a guy go 10 innings in game 7 now. 0. None. Not one. Oh, and Matt Harvey was allowed to pitch the 9th inning of a shutout in game 5 in 2015. The manager was clearly going to take him out, but Harvey talked his way into going out for the 9th. Manager "followed his gut" and Harvey imploded and the Mets lost the game and the series. 1991 was great. Best game 7 in the history of sports. But can we please stop pointing to that game like it's something that should be expected or something any team in baseball would do in 2024? It's not. And they don't always work out so well.

[DJL44]

11 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

Closing ballgames is an art, my friend. Very few humans on the planet do it well...especially for a long period of time.

Very few relief pitchers do it consistently well. The ones who can do it consistently well are turned into closers. This is selection bias at work.

[Jeff K]

12 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

I count 4 candidates for loss of the year in the last 3 weeks.

The numbers do not bear out using Jax as the closer and Duran as set up. Each has excelled in their usual role and struggled how they were used tonight. I don’t understand swapping them. 
 

But regardless, I’ll take the guy who set down 15 in a row with 84 pitches. It’s madness to argue he should have been removed from the game.

I'm not in the anti-Baldelli club, but pulling Bailey was inexplicably nuts.

[BillyBallLives]

Ober in a Uber...🤣

[chinmusic]

12 hours ago, cheeseheadgophfan said:

can anyone please defend pulling Ober after 7??

Nah. It's indefensible. Rocco appeared to be obsessively making moves. I don't think he should have pulled Julien for Castro either, even though Lynch is a southpaw. The Ober thing was just unfathomable.

They've got to be a dispirited bunch. Anyone care to predict the outcome of today's game?

[Aggies7]

40 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

Closing ballgames is an art, my friend. Very few humans on the planet do it well...especially for a long period of time.

But last night was about Rocco/Ober. I'd left the stadium if I was Ober. Uber.

Anyone who’s ever pitched, especially in relief, will tell you that the 9th inning is different. “The last 3 outs are the hardest to get” is said over and over again. It’s the pressure of knowing that if you blow it, especially on the road, the game is over and you lose. It’s a mentality that some guys have and thrive with and some don’t. Maybe Duran struggles outside of that situation because he doesn’t have that adrenaline going. And that’s not rocco’s fault, to be fair, but he needs to recognize the pattern that we all see.

It’s laughable to suggest that any pitcher can be a successful 9th inning guy. Look at Jax in particular. He’s had an outstanding season and you can make an argument that he’s overall the best reliever we have. But his numbers closing games are not good over the last two years. He’s had more blown saves than duran with far fewer chances. He even technically got one last night though it wasn’t his fault.

I just don’t understand why you would mess with guys who have shown they are better in certain situations. It’s like using a speedy running back on 3rd and short instead of your big bruiser. It’s overthinking a simple situation.

[Pat]

i would imagine that it is possible to mismanage a game more than this one but I really don't see how.

[insagt1]

Can't you just see Ober being Dennis Lemieux in Slapshot...on the phone with management and asking what do I say?  "Say..trade me right....well you all remember what he said.

Twins are playing themselves out of a playoff spot...seriously. Taking Ober out was in microcosm what has happened to MLB . Suddenly a pitcher can't pitch a complete game even if he has a no hitter or he was outstanding like last night. For decades at the very least if a guy had only thrown 83 pitches and allowed 1 hit he goes back out until he gives up a hit or a walk. Watching these games is very frustrating for me because it's not the MLB game I have enjoyed for so many decades. But that horse left the barn and I have to deal with what's left.

Anyway last night's loss could have sealed Twins fate unless things turn around quickly.

 

.

[insagt1]

1 minute ago, insagt1 said:

Can't you just see Ober being Dennis Lemieux in Slapshot...on the phone with his agent.  and asking what do I say?  "Say..trade me right....well you all remember what he said.

Twins are playing themselves out of a playoff spot...seriously. Taking Ober out was in microcosm what has happened to MLB . Suddenly a pitcher can't pitch a complete game even if he has a no hitter or he was outstanding like last night. For decades at the very least if a guy had only thrown 83 pitches and allowed 1 hit he goes back out until he gives up a hit or a walk. Watching these games is very frustrating for me because it's not the MLB game I have enjoyed for so many decades. But that horse left the barn and I have to deal with what's left.

Anyway last night's loss could have sealed Twins fate unless things turn around quickly.

 

.

 

[Aggies7]

9 minutes ago, insagt1 said:

Can't you just see Ober being Dennis Lemieux in Slapshot...on the phone with management and asking what do I say?  "Say..trade me right....well you all remember what he said.

Twins are playing themselves out of a playoff spot...seriously. Taking Ober out was in microcosm what has happened to MLB . Suddenly a pitcher can't pitch a complete game even if he has a no hitter or he was outstanding like last night. For decades at the very least if a guy had only thrown 83 pitches and allowed 1 hit he goes back out until he gives up a hit or a walk. Watching these games is very frustrating for me because it's not the MLB game I have enjoyed for so many decades. But that horse left the barn and I have to deal with what's left.

Anyway last night's loss could have sealed Twins fate unless things turn around quickly.

 

.

It’s not just that the game has changed so much, it’s that it’s changed so much so quickly. It really was not that long ago that removing a guy performing as well as Ober did last night was unthinkable. How many years since this became a thing? 10? 15? A lot baseball fans over the age of say 35 can’t comprehend this sort of mindset and don’t like it. But this is how pitchers are handled now from an early age, so I’m not sure what will change it. Maybe if MLB implements the 6 inning minimum for starters? But SPs throughout the entire system will have to adjust. What was the thing I heard with Festa, he hadn’t pitched past the 5th inning in the minors? That’s insanity, unless I just completely made it up 😂

[David Maro]

If you look at the roster for next year,you have no Santana and no Kepler.Those spots will be filled by players under team control.Another player gone will be Farmer who has been a absolute bust this year.With those 3 gone it cuts payroll by 25 million and that doesn't even count the money in the BP that will be gone.

Now everyone who thinks it would be a good thing to make the playoffs just to be one home game and be eliminated.I guess you're OK with giving your hard earned money to the Polhad's for a one and done.

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

 

While I understand Rocco’s reasoning to try and protect Duran after he got lit up by the Top of the K.C. order not long ago..

 

 

 

Can you share with us when that was?

Duran has 5 appearances against KC this season.

He earned a save in all three appearances against KC May 27, 28, and 30. No earned runs allowed. Pitched the 9th in all three games.

He gave up an earned run on August 14, pitching the 7th inning, in a 4-1 loss.

And finally last night. 

This stuff can be looked up.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=duranjh01&t=p&year=2024

[USAFChief]

27 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

What was the thing I heard with Festa, he hadn’t pitched past the 5th inning in the minors? That’s insanity, unless I just completely made it up 😂

I believe that's Matthews.

Unless I completely made that up.

Edit: I completely made that up.

Matthews has gone as many as 7 IP this season, twice in fact, in the minors.

Edit 2: Festa went 6 IP twice this season for St Paul.

However, MiLB workloads are insanely light. 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

10 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Bringing in Duran for the 8th is the decision I really can't see a defense for

I'm not going to defend nor assail Rocco. 

This morning when looking the Twins results over. 

This was my only question. 

Why Duran in the 8th to face 6, 7 and 8 in the order. 

Actually one more question. How quickly did Jax get up and warmed. 

Out, Single, HBP Single and Duran is out? 

When would you even start thinking about pulling Duran.

After the 1st out? No

After the Fermin Single? No

After the HBP.? Maybe but probably No

After the Isbel Single... Most likely you start thinking about getting someone warmed up at this point. But for some reason Jax was already ready to go. J

My Guess... Rocco already wanted Jax over Duran to face the top of the order and that's why Duran in the 8th. 

Just some guessing from someone who didn't watch the game because I was watching North Dakota come from behind to beat Montana. 

 

 

[mnfireman]

55 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Can you share with us when that was?

Duran has 5 appearances against KC this season.

He earned a save in all three appearances against KC May 27, 28, and 30. No earned runs allowed. Pitched the 9th in all three games.

He gave up an earned run on August 14, pitching the 7th inning, in a 4-1 loss.

And finally last night. 

This stuff can be looked up.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=duranjh01&t=p&year=2024

I believe he is referring to 7-28-23. Duran went Manfred man at 2B, K, (SB), BB, (SB), BB and WO GS by Witt Jr. This was also referenced by Rosenthal during the game and several TD posters on the game thread.

[Aggies7]

Just now, mnfireman said:

I believe he is referring to 7-28-23. Duran went Manfred man at 2b, K, (SB), BB, (SB), BB and WO GS by Witt Jr. This was also referenced by Rosenthal during the game and several TD posters on the game thread.

I would really hope decisions weren’t made due to what happened a year ago in one game