Rays 2, Twins 1: Lineup Mediocrity "Springs" Eternal

[Aggies7]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Seriously? This idea that medicine is easy and that guys are soft is ridiculous 

The idea that the twins bring guys back as cautiously as possible is absolutely not ridiculous.

And it was said at least a couple weeks ago that he was close to returning to action. Fact not opinion.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Vanimal46 said:

So we want to go back to the Gardenhire days of playing Jacque Jones and his .628 OPS against lefties every day?

No idea. But playing Farmer isn't working at the plate or in the field. 

[Riverbrian]

48 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Larnach’s got a .555 career OPS against lefties. Pretty clear he can’t hit them well. The problem is the lineup is so thin that Larnach is the best hitter we have at the moment. 

Larnach has gone from 90 AB's against lefties to 51 to 23 to 17 so far in his 4 year existence in the majors. He has spent his 4 year existence of bouncing between the majors, AAA and the IL because he hasn't grabbed a full time job with both hands. The platoon split is real... I don't argue this... but Larnach hasn't been able to grab a full time job with both hands to this point. 

This year he has more AB's in the majors than any other year.   

[Riverbrian]

10 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

So we want to go back to the Gardenhire days of playing Jacque Jones and his .628 OPS against lefties every day?

My argument is against the extreme response of just taking the lefties out every single time.

I wouldn't want to go extreme in the other direction either.  Most things in life have a middle ground that gets overlooked in a nuanced discussion. 

But if those are my only two choices. I'll take Jacque Jones and his .628 OPS against 25% of the pitchers while you staff the team for the 75% of the right handers.  

 

[Vanimal46]

7 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Larnach has gone from 90 AB's against lefties to 51 to 23 to 17 so far in his 4 year existence in the majors. He has spent his 4 year existence of bouncing between the majors, AAA and the IL because he hasn't grabbed a full time job with both hands. The platoon split is real... I don't argue this... but Larnach hasn't been able to grab a full time job with both hands to this point. 

This year he has more AB's in the majors than any other year.   

So what does that data tell you? My interpretation is they don’t want him to face LH pitchers because he’s not good at it. 

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, Vanimal46 said:

So what does that data tell you? My interpretation is they don’t want him to face LH pitchers because he’s not good at it. 

My suspicion is that if you asked Rocco why he platoons the way he does... His honest response would be that they are not good enough. 

My response to Rocco would be: They will never be good enough and you are making sure of that by decree. And the time will come that you are going to need them to be what you say they can't be because the roster only supports 13 position players and you are pinch hitting for players in the 4th inning. 

I don't believe for a second that Wallner can OPS 1,000 plus against right handers but his OPS against left handers will be locked at .516 in the basement with no chance of improvement. He only gets locked in the basement when Rocco locks him in the basement which is what he does.  

I know 24 PA's is a small sample size so I don't quote the following numbers as proof of anything because you and I both know the volatility of small samples. However his current OPS against lefties is .720 in those 24 PA's. 

That is higher than the following players who stand in the right side batters box. 

Lee

Castro

Farmer

Martin

Miranda

Vazquez

That's 6 players out of 13 spots. Yet... it's the crime of being left handed that dictates the lineup choices. 

The other thing is this: 

All teams will platoon... the platoon split is real. However only the Giants platoon as heavily as the Twins do and they are letting Yaz swing against lefties now with his .743 OPS against them and .754 against the RHP. 

 

 

 

[chpettit19]

32 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

They did give them chances all throughout the minors and both have shown to be bad at hitting lefties. Most LH hitters do. A fun fact: Kyle Farmer has a higher career OPS against lefties than Morneau and Thome  

They don’t have to give them opportunities at the MLB level. Aaron Gleeman wrote an article detailing why “give them a chance” doesn’t work. 

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5277693/2024/03/06/twins-platoon-left-handed-hitters/

Have you actually looked at Wallner's minor league numbers against lefties? 2022 in 185 PAs in the high minors he had a .911 OPS. He was .939 against righties. 2023 in 129 PAs in AAA he had an .848 OPS. He was .921 against righties. Not seeing where he showed he was bad at hitting lefties in the minors. In drastically more plate appearances he saw very little drop off in his numbers.

[cmoss84]

I'd like to see more data on what types of lefty pitching Wallner and Larnach hit better. For example, maybe they can't hit offspeed but hit fastballs decent. 

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, Vanimal46 said:

They did give them chances all throughout the minors and both have shown to be bad at hitting lefties. Most LH hitters do. A fun fact: Kyle Farmer has a higher career OPS against lefties than Morneau and Thome  

They don’t have to give them opportunities at the MLB level. Aaron Gleeman wrote an article detailing why “give them a chance” doesn’t work. 

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5277693/2024/03/06/twins-platoon-left-handed-hitters/

OK

But if you are going to sit Morneau and Thome so Farmer can play... I need you to promise me that you will never play Farmer against a right handed pitcher with his .649 career OPS against them.  

[DJL44]

One thing that helps a platoon player get into the lineup against same-handed pitchers is good defense. That's one reason why Jacque Jones and Max Kepler get to face lefties. It's also a reason why Wallner should stay in the game instead of Manny Margot or Austin Martin - his fielding is better. It makes no sense to downgrade future at-bats AND the outfield defense for the rest of the game to get one at-bat with the platoon advantage in the 4th inning.

[Craig Arko]

The obvious solution is that all players need to learn to switch-hit. :)

They could learn from Aaron Hicks.

[JD-TWINS]

52 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

My argument is against the extreme response of just taking the lefties out every single time.

I wouldn't want to go extreme in the other direction either.  Most things in life have a middle ground that gets overlooked in a nuanced discussion. 

But if those are my only two choices. I'll take Jacque Jones and his .628 OPS against 25% of the pitchers while you staff the team for the 75% of the right handers.  

 

So, Larnach & Wallner pinch hit for RH hitters during the game and did nothing……….the pendulum has to swing both ways, can’t cover your eyes when they (LH bats) do nothing at the plate.

[Major League Ready]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

By playing.. 

How does the team get better by putting players in the lineup that are 50% below league average?  This simply defies logic.  If you want to argue they would eventually get better against LHP I would say that's certainly possible.  I would even understand the investment in the future.  However, as of this moment they have established they are far below average against LHP and therefore a liability against LHP.   

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

There have been no less than three games lost in the last two weeks directly because of terrible defensive play in the outfield. While Byron takes his sweet old time coming back from what I can only assume is the worst hip injury since my grandma fell down the stairs some years ago. I know we aren’t allowed to question injuries but dude come on. Dude hasn’t played for almost 4 weeks at this point and his absence is killing us. He was “close” to coming back two weeks ago. Someone isn’t being honest with us.

This is loser stuff.

[USAFChief]

24 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

 However, as of this moment they have established they are far below average against LHP and therefore a liability against LHP.   

Wallner has 88 career MLB PAs against LH pitching, spread across 3 seasons.

Larnach 181.

Neither has "established" anything. 

Y'know who DOES have an established track record? Manny Margot.

[Riverbrian]

27 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

So, Larnach & Wallner pinch hit for RH hitters during the game and did nothing……….the pendulum has to swing both ways, can’t cover your eyes when they (LH bats) do nothing at the plate.

I literally point to middle ground in a post and you quote it with this response. It's pretty disappointing. 

Are you under the impression that I don't understand OBP.

The OBP of Correa is .377 that means failure to reach base is .643. 

I can literally type... the very first sentence that I type in this thread.

"There is no gaurentee of performance no matter what move is made". 

You even quoted that post. 

And you throw "Can't cover your eyes when they (LH bats) do nothing at the plate" at me. 

If you think that is what I'm doing or capable of... Don't respond to my posts. You won't be worth my time. 

 

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

2 hours ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

I am also very frustrated with not letting same side batters bat against same side pitchers especially if they are considered long-term players with potential like Larnach.  Look at Kepler.  They always let him bat against LH pitchers (although not early in his career) and he has improved over the years where they do not need to PH for him hardly ever.  Same for Miranda.  He actually is hitting better against RH pitchers than LH pitchers.  If you don't ever give these guys a chance to improve, how can they ever hope to improve.  If we continue this approach, we will either need the rosters expanded or we will be caught off guard by opposing managers and be left with nothing at the end of the game like this one.

Something's gotta change.

RHB are not platooned as much as LHB because there's a much less severe dropoff for them facing same-handed pitchers. Platooning is really a lefty thing, and it's been done since Earl Weaver and Tom Kelly. 

Max Kepler has a career OPS against LHP of .655. Nick Punto had a career OPS of .654 against LHP. He's had some good years (2019 is a big outlier), and some very bad years. 

[cmoss84]

29 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Wallner has 88 career MLB PAs against LH pitching, spread across 3 seasons.

Larnach 181.

Neither has "established" anything. 

Y'know who DOES have an established track record? Manny Margot.

In 63 games, (178 PA), Larnach has a .721 OPS versus lefty starters.

In 35 games (93 PA), Wallner has a .396 OPS versus lefty starters.

Larnach definitely has the edge, but SSS for each of them. Definitely worth seeing more, especially when the platoon mates are terrible. 

[USAFChief]

2 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

In 63 games, (178 PA), Larnach has a .721 OPS versus lefty starters.

In 35 games (93 PA), Wallner has a .396 OPS versus left starters.

Larnach definitely has the edge, but SSS for each of them. Definitely worth seeing more, especially when the platoon mates are terrible. 

Those platoon splits make no sense...they show Wallner with more PAs against LH starters than LH pitching in total. 

What up, BBRef?

[Aggies7]

54 minutes ago, CCHOF5yearstoolate said:

This is loser stuff.

Really? I’m a loser for questioning a guy who’s played more than 92 games exactly once in his entire career? 
 

Some guys play when they aren’t 100%. You can’t keep them off the field. Correa played through stuff last year. Athletes in other sports do it all the time. But we can’t question a ball player or you’re a loser. We’re in the middle of a tight playoff race and we’re losing games because Austin Martin is in the outfield and Byron’s rehab started only yesterday even though he was said to be close weeks ago. It's fair to question. I’m not calling him a bad guy or something.
 

The desire to defend pro athletes/coaches at all costs that some of you have is so weird 

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

14 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Really? I’m a loser for questioning a guy who’s played more than 92 games exactly once in his entire career? 
 

Some guys play when they aren’t 100%. You can’t keep them off the field. Correa played through stuff last year. Athletes in other sports do it all the time. But we can’t question a ball player or you’re a loser. We’re in the middle of a tight playoff race and we’re losing games because Austin Martin is in the outfield and Byron’s rehab started only yesterday. It's fair to question.
 

The desire to defend pro athletes/coaches at all costs that some of you have is so weird 

Yes, that kind of "asking questions" is loser stuff. Particularly so if you're questioning the desire of Byron Buxton to play the game of baseball. If you seriously believe what you wrote, it sure seems like you haven't paid attention to his career at all, other than looking at the 'games played' section of his baseball reference. 

Injuries happen, it sucks. When it happens every year it f***ing sucks. I guarantee you that Byron is 1000x more unhappy than you are that he's not out there. How much has rushing back to the field helped him in the past? 

What you are doing is toddler-esque, loser behavior, plain and simple.

What's pretty weird to me is taking it personally when an athlete gets injured and making it out to be some kind of moral failing when you (obviously) don't know any of the details on the why he's not back playing yet. 

[Aggies7]

Just now, CCHOF5yearstoolate said:

Yes, that kind of "asking questions" is loser stuff. Particularly so if you're questioning the desire of Byron Buxton to play the game of baseball. If you seriously believe what you wrote, it sure seems like you haven't paid attention to his career at all, other than looking at the 'games played' section of his baseball reference. 

Injuries happen, it sucks. When it happens every year it f***ing sucks. I guarantee you that Byron is 1000x more unhappy than you are that he's not out there. How much has rushing back to the field helped him in the past? 

What you are doing is toddler-esque, loser behavior, plain and simple.

Lol ok man. I hope he sees this.

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

Just now, Aggies7 said:

Lol ok man. I hope he sees this.

Why would you believe that Twins players would ever read the comments on this site? Weird to think that. 

[Aggies7]

10 minutes ago, CCHOF5yearstoolate said:

Why would you believe that Twins players would ever read the comments on this site? Weird to think that. 

I don’t, which makes it weirder you’re so offended that I’m questioning a player who only once has played more than 56% of games in a season. Most guys with that track record of availability would probably be out of the league if they didn’t have his skill sets.

But no one should be allowed to question it or you’ll call them a loser.

[jorgenswest]

29 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Those platoon splits make no sense...they show Wallner with more PAs against LH starters than LH pitching in total. 

What up, BBRef?

They are their splits in games started by a left handed pitcher. They probably get a few at bats against a right handed pitcher in those games that are part of that record.

I appreciate the split. Catchers usually play the full game so this split can be telling for them. Ryan Jeffers for his career has an OPS 70 points greater in games started by a right handed pitcher. He isn’t a better hitter against right handed pitching. He must be feasting on those at bats against lefty relievers later in the game when the right handed pitcher is pulled after two times through the line up.

In this era of starters pitching half the game it would seem the wise line up would be put out your best 9 as often as possible. Jeffers is not suffering starting against all those righties.

[BillyBallLives]

Saw a video on ESPN..two guys talking American Central....one says: Twins have the best players, but they are never healthy so it will be KC or CLE. 

This is a national opinion! No home boys. 

I don't mind hearing fans vent about this issue. 

[Aggies7]

5 minutes ago, BillyBallLives said:

Saw a video on ESPN..two guys talking American Central....one says: Twins have the best players, but they are never healthy so it will be KC or CLE. 

This is a national opinion! No home boys. 

I don't mind hearing fans vent about this issue. 

I don’t know why it ruffles so many feathers to be frustrated by it. I remember a few weeks ago when they gave an update on Byron, the twins were on the road and he was supposed to (according to the report) get some on field work. But there was a concert at target field so he just…didn’t. The AAA team is across the river, but he didn’t go there. Struck me as very odd considering the time of year and considering his replacements have not been good. I’d have thought the urgency would be through the roof. Its not like I’m not saying he’s a bad fella but my god you should be able to be frustrated about it when you watch make-able plays not be made and winnable games be lost!

 

”The best ability is AVAILABILITY!”

[cmoss84]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Those platoon splits make no sense...they show Wallner with more PAs against LH starters than LH pitching in total. 

What up, BBRef?

good catch. that is strange. 

[Craig Arko]

16 minutes ago, BillyBallLives said:

Saw a video on ESPN..two guys talking American Central....one says: Twins have the best players, but they are never healthy so it will be KC or CLE. 

This is a national opinion! No home boys. 

I don't mind hearing fans vent about this issue. 

And we care about what they say on ESPN why, exactly?

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

Some guys play when they aren’t 100%. You can’t keep them off the field. Correa played through stuff last year.

Buxton played hurt ALL of 2023. He didn't have a single day of good health.