4 Things That Went Wrong for the Twins in the Playoffs

[SAL]

#5    Rocco pulls starters too early..again

Considering Ryan's tendency to give up the long ball, Rocco pulling the struggling sophomore was understandable. 

However, pulling him AND his reasoning at the post-game press conference after the game was a confirmation he lacks any confidence in the young star. 

Rocco's post-game comments

[David Maro]

Pressly was traded because he had control issues. More often then not he looked like F Rodney. People seem to forget how many times he couldn't find the zone. He didn't become the closer he is for 2 or 3 seasons in Houston. This seems to becoming a Ortiz situation. Now the Jeffers or Vasquez thing. Jeffers was a deer in the headlights. Vasquez had been there done that guy and metrics and statistics shouldn't be the end all be all.

[Blyleven2011]

2 hours ago, laloesch said:

    

I'd really hate to see this team squander the time they keep this starting rotation together.  It's probably the best collection they've had since the 2006 rotation of Santana, Radke, Liriano, Boof, Baker, and Silva.  

Lopez

Ryan

Paddack

Gray (maybe)

Ober / Varland

That's not bad.

You forgot Kyle Lohse , wasn't a bad pitcher , probably  a #2 behind Santana  , he just didn't get along with management ...

[Blyleven2011]

I like Vasquez  defense  more than Jeffers  ( he still has some learning to do on moving his body and using his glove the right way  to stop balls in the dirt and preventing passed balls or wild pitches ) , he did improve  on throwing out runners this year and hitting was better to ...

We sign a guy for 13 million ( Vasquez ) and he has experience in the past in playoffs  and we don't play him at all , what did we sign him for  ???

It tells me that our FO  don't know how to evaluate younger players and don't trust them  ...

Just my opinion  , Jeffers had a good season  but I think it was alittle unfair not having Vasquez  play a game  , he played the whole season for opportunity in the playoffs ...

[BsuNemo]

Just about every third comment in here mentions us struggling against good pitching - we struggled against mediocre pitching because of our strikeouts. The three good to great pitchers we faced (Gausman, Verlander and Valdez) we hit well. We got shut down by two Astros pitchers that struggled all year. 

The best teams in the league are not three-outcome teams - yes Houston hits home runs but they also make contact which gives them a chance of getting singles doubles and triples. You don't win playoff series hoping for three walks and a dinger. It just doesn't happen. 

As negative as that sounds - Rocco changed his philosophy on his starter and bullpen usage from last year to this... I'm still not a fan but he looks to be showing growth. My hope is we fix the "it's okay to strikeout" philosophy next year and communicate a different thought process to our hitters. 

We are a really talented team, and we're young and we've got more guns coming up. I look forward to the off season and think we'll be back here next year with some less-than-major tweaks. 

[Mike Sixel]

5 hours ago, BsuNemo said:

Just about every third comment in here mentions us struggling against good pitching - we struggled against mediocre pitching because of our strikeouts. The three good to great pitchers we faced (Gausman, Verlander and Valdez) we hit well. We got shut down by two Astros pitchers that struggled all year. 

The best teams in the league are not three-outcome teams - yes Houston hits home runs but they also make contact which gives them a chance of getting singles doubles and triples. You don't win playoff series hoping for three walks and a dinger. It just doesn't happen. 

As negative as that sounds - Rocco changed his philosophy on his starter and bullpen usage from last year to this... I'm still not a fan but he looks to be showing growth. My hope is we fix the "it's okay to strikeout" philosophy next year and communicate a different thought process to our hitters. 

We are a really talented team, and we're young and we've got more guns coming up. I look forward to the off season and think we'll be back here next year with some less-than-major tweaks. 

Tenth in runs scored……thats Struggling ?

[wabene]

19 hours ago, Streif Lightning said:

You forgot the shadows, I blame the shadows!!!! Who constructed this place?!

We all did, you know, the taxpayers. I suppose we just have to blame ourselves. 

[Streif Lightning]

3 hours ago, wabene said:

We all did, you know, the taxpayers. I suppose we just have to blame ourselves. 

[twinfan]

Hey. At least we weren't the Braves, Dodgers or Orioles who were expected to win. In a short series against the teams best pitchers and manager decisions, anything can happen and usually does. If most things go south, you don't stand much of a chance. 

[wabene]

17 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Chief, you are right.  I stand corrected.  Chalk it up to old age...

He learned me too. You have a lot of work ahead of you @USAFChief

[wabene]

56 minutes ago, Streif Lightning said:

It was a JOKE, settle down. I'm not upset about the funding of Target Field. Your sarcasm detection mechanism needs calibrating. 

[Streif Lightning]

3 minutes ago, wabene said:

It was a JOKE, settle down. I'm not upset about the funding of Target Field. Your sarcasm detection mechanism needs calibrating. 

MY sarcasm detection needs calibrating?!

[wabene]

8 minutes ago, Streif Lightning said:

MY sarcasm detection needs calibrating?!

Yes

[USAFChief]

47 minutes ago, wabene said:

It was a JOKE, settle down. I'm not upset about the funding of Target Field. Your sarcasm detection mechanism* needs calibrating. 

* "sarcasmeter"

sahr kaz mi ter

[ashbury]

4 hours ago, wabene said:

It was a JOKE, settle down. I'm not upset about the funding of Target Field. Your sarcasm detection mechanism needs calibrating. 

 

4 hours ago, Streif Lightning said:

MY sarcasm detection needs calibrating?!

[tarheeltwinsfan]

On 10/13/2023 at 10:58 AM, chpettit19 said:

These are professional athletes, they don't need to be apologized to for not playing when the other option was clearly the better player all season. Who cares if Houston was his former team? Why would that have any impact on Rocco's decision? 

In what world should any manager look at the numbers below and feel like they should play Vazquez?

Alternating them during the season worked better than allowing Jeffers to play every game in the playoffs.

[chpettit19]

3 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Alternating them during the season worked better than allowing Jeffers to play every game in the playoffs.

It was 6 games. Ryan Jeffers played 6 games in 9 days. The idea that him playing every game hurt his performance is absolute nonsense. He didn't perform well. It hurt the team and contributed to them losing the series. That's unfortunate. But playing the clearly, unquestionably lesser player wasn't a better choice. I can't believe we're even talking about this. Playing every other game in a 9 game regular season stretch would have 1 of their catchers playing 5 games in 9 days. He played 1 extra game in that time span. This debate is mind blowing.

Jeffers would've played games 1, 1, and 3, right? I assume you at least would've started him game 1. They won game 1 against Toronto, but you can't argue that his performance would've changed in that game anyways because he would've been playing in either scenario. They lost the 2nd game 1 in which he went 2 for 4 with a run scored and 1 K. Is it your belief that he would've performed better than that and they would've won that game had he had 3 days rest instead of 2 before it? They lost game 3, and he went 0-3 with a K. Is it your belief he would've done better in that game had he had 2 days rest instead of 1 before it? Would he have done so much better that it would've made up for the 9-1 margin the game ended in?

Vazquez would've started games 2, 2, and 4. The Twins won both game 2s, and lost the game 4. Would they have won the game 2s by more? Is that the goal there? Would Vazquez had suddenly turned into a good hitter for game 4 and been the boost they needed to get over the 1 run hump they lost by?

What is the honest argument here? They went 2-1 in the games Vazquez would've started if they'd stuck strictly to the every other game scenario people are suggesting they should've done. That would've had Jeffers playing game 1, sitting for 3 days before playing the next game 1. Then sitting for 2 days before game 3. That's what people think they should've done? They should've sat the unquestionably better player for 3 of 6 games while giving him 5 days off mixed in between those 3 starts? That was the key to the Twins winning that series? Come on. That can't really be what people think should've happened.

[rv78]

Vazquez had his worst year since 2018. Did his approach at the plate change? Was he asked to become a different hitter than he was in the past? Did he just have an off-year? His strikeout rate definitely went up. Maybe he was told to swing for the fences. We don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. Seems like every other hitter on the Twins does just that with reckless abandon at the risk of striking out to the tune of another major league record. Is the Twins philosophy, hitting HR's aka 2019? Did the hitting coaches, Rudy Hernandez and David Popkins mess him up? Whatever the reason he didn't earn playing time over Jeffers, no matter how bad Jeffers played in the playoffs. There were off days for Jeffers to get a break. That is one platoon that didn't need to happen, unlike many that Rocco overdoes by not playing his best players as much as he should, throwing games away, somehow thinking that is best for the team. I don't care what anyone here thinks about throwing games away. It's wrong, it sends the wrong message to your players and your fans, that each game is NOT important, that it is alright to lose. If you send that message that a game isn't important then it doesn't take long for players to sense that 1 at bat here or there isn't important and all of the sudden players don't play up to their potential. They flail away at pitches they shouldn't be swinging at, they don't bother to foul off pitches to keep an at bat alive, They stand there and watch strike 3 go right down the middle. They just give in thinking, I'll get 'em the next time. Here we are as fans thinking, there's always next year. Same difference. Next year has been a long time since 1991. How many next years will it take? Many of you think this team is on the right course to win a Championship. But a lot has to change starting with the HR philosophy that has lead this team into being strikeout kings. The FO needs to stop wasting money on players that can't hit anything but HRs. Players that are always injured should be replaced permanently. You can't count on them when you need them. Veterans that are worse than the new young guys coming up need to be replaced permanently. They had their chance to produce and they continue to fail. Why keep giving them chances they don't deserve. A total youth movement needs to take place in 2024 to see what they've got. Otherwise it's likely they will just be spinning their wheels again come playoff time depending on guys like Kepler, Buxton, Polanco, Taylor, Correa, Farmer, Solano, Vazquez, Gallo, that either aren't even available to play or just simply can't get the job done.

[Nine of twelve]

On 10/13/2023 at 7:03 AM, Streif Lightning said:

You forgot the shadows, I blame the shadows!!!! Who constructed this place?!

This is not just a joke. From home plate to straightaway center field is almost exactly west to east. It would have been better from a baseball perspective to put home plate where the left field corner is. But that would have been less than ideal for that site. I think this is the only gripe I have about an otherwise beautiful baseball stadium. 

[Nine of twelve]

On 10/13/2023 at 7:23 AM, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Shadows and cold weather and rain and snow would not have been a problem if the stadium had been built with a retractable roof. Just open the roof during the beautiful Minnesota summer days and close it during the uncomfortable for baseball, cold and wet Minnesota days. 

This was never possible. 

[MGM4706]

Odd. You forgot the biggest mistake of the series. Julien getting picked off 2nd with no outs. Lewis hits HR on next pitch an Julien's run would have eventually tied the score at 3-3! Frustrating part is it is a habit with Julien that has not been corrected. His head is not in the game when running. He got picked off first multiple times. Over slid 2nd twice. And ran on a fly out with one out getting doubled off. You can't give away runs like that in an elimination game and expect to win. He should be sent to Winter Ball to work on his fielding and his running. See if he can learn to take it more seriously!!

[RpR]

46 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

This was never possible. 

Thank God.

[KirbyDome89]

14 hours ago, Nine of twelve said:

This is not just a joke. From home plate to straightaway center field is almost exactly west to east. It would have been better from a baseball perspective to put home plate where the left field corner is. But that would have been less than ideal for that site. I think this is the only gripe I have about an otherwise beautiful baseball stadium. 

Idk why 3:00 pm October starts would've been a consideration during planning. That's such a niche "issue."

[Nine of twelve]

15 hours ago, MGM4706 said:

Odd. You forgot the biggest mistake of the series. Julien getting picked off 2nd with no outs. Lewis hits HR on next pitch an Julien's run would have eventually tied the score at 3-3! Frustrating part is it is a habit with Julien that has not been corrected. His head is not in the game when running. He got picked off first multiple times. Over slid 2nd twice. And ran on a fly out with one out getting doubled off. You can't give away runs like that in an elimination game and expect to win. He should be sent to Winter Ball to work on his fielding and his running. See if he can learn to take it more seriously!!

This particular play was not a mistake by Julien. And it was not a pickoff. This double play would have been impossible for almost every baserunner to avoid. It was simply bad baseball luck. Had the ball been hit in a different direction or had the shortstop been positioned differently, even by just a foot, Julien would not have been doubled off.

[BsuNemo]

On 10/14/2023 at 12:40 AM, Mike Sixel said:

Tenth in runs scored……thats Struggling ?

Second fewest runs scored out of the playoff teams - second worst team batting average with runners in scoring position - most strikeouts in the history of the league.  But my point was that we struggle against mediocre pitching and we had some success against the good pitchers we faced.