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Posted

Here's the reality (to me). Kepler is most likely a proven mediocrity, but with excellent defense. Because of a combination of injuries, so-so production at the major league level and inconsistent playing time, none of Kirilloff, Wallner or Larnach is truly proven. Maybe i'm holding the bar too high, but after a supposedly sure-thing hitter (Miranda) has fizzled this year, can the Twins count on any of these young(ish) players to be a mainstay? Wallner played mostly when the season had slipped away last year and had a nice cameo last week. Kirlloff has been hounded by injuries and I think some fans and front office people want him to prove they hype before fully committing to him and Larnach has had good moments, bad moments and lot of injuries. The likelihood that one of these guys will be better than Kepler is pretty high. The chances that two will exceed what Max offers are more of an even money thing and having all three thrive is more of a wish than a future reality.

Having Larnach, Kirilloff, and Wallner mashing from the left side added to Lewis (again a projection, not reality), Buxton, Correa and Polanco (or Julien) makes for quite a potent offense. It just hasn't been put together and probably never will. 

Speaking of "never will" or at least I'll believe it when I see it, Max Kepler hasn't played center field in over a year and Byron Buxton hasn't been out there yet this year. Until someone announces that either of these things are on the table, I guess we'll see MAT and Castro as the center field options.

 

 

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Posted
23 minutes ago, Rik19753 said:

I think the value that Kepler holds is that he is a known commodity. We can pencil him in for a average-ish offensive season while providing solid defense. If 100 is an average player, we know he is going to be somewhere around 90~110. On the other hand, we don't know what Wallner will do over a full season. His range is something like 70~130. If you have a lineup full of proven players, I think you take the upside of Wallner. But in the Twins' case, we are relying far too heavily on high-variance players. We have no idea what guys like Kirilloff, Julien, Miranda, Wallner, Royce and Larnach are going to do. Heck, with the injury concerns with our star players, we can't even count on great seasons from Buxton, Correa and Polanco. Gallo is a huge question mark as well. So in this case, there is value to be had in having a guy like Kepler whose production you can pretty much pencil in before the season is even played.

Trust me, Kepler is far from being my favorite player. But we all complain about how inconsistent this offense is, and if we had more Wallners and less Keplers, the lineup would be even more inconsistent IMO.

Kepler himself is inconsistent too though. He routinely goes on stretches of providing nothing just like everyone loathes from players with Wallner's profile, except instead of striking out he's weakly grounding out to second base. 

The decision to do what they did is justifiable, it's easy to see why they did it. That being said, it stinks to see a prospect come up and show what he can do in an offense that desperately needs contributors and he gets sent down for someone who I think we're all certain at this point isn't an offensive game changer at all. We saw it yesterday with Kepler going 0-5 with 2 Ks and 3 groundouts with several opportunities to help us win that game squandered. Unfair to bash him for his first game back, but he's got plenty of similar games on tap.

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Posted
20 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Here's the reality (to me). Kepler is most likely a proven mediocrity, but with excellent defense. Because of a combination of injuries, so-so production at the major league level and inconsistent playing time, none of Kirilloff, Wallner or Larnach is truly proven. Maybe i'm holding the bar too high, but after a supposedly sure-thing hitter (Miranda) has fizzled this year, can the Twins count on any of these young(ish) players to be a mainstay? Wallner played mostly when the season had slipped away last year and had a nice cameo last week. Kirlloff has been hounded by injuries and I think some fans and front office people want him to prove they hype before fully committing to him and Larnach has had good moments, bad moments and lot of injuries. The likelihood that one of these guys will be better than Kepler is pretty high. The chances that two will exceed what Max offers are more of an even money thing and having all three thrive is more of a wish than a future reality.

Having Larnach, Kirilloff, and Wallner mashing from the left side added to Lewis (again a projection, not reality), Buxton, Correa and Polanco (or Julien) makes for quite a potent offense. It just hasn't been put together and probably never will. 

Speaking of "never will" or at least I'll believe it when I see it, Max Kepler hasn't played center field in over a year and Byron Buxton hasn't been out there yet this year. Until someone announces that either of these things are on the table, I guess we'll see MAT and Castro as the center field options.

 

 

Kepler being a proven mediocrity is exactly my point. Yeah he was a 2.0 Win player last season but he did it almost completely with his defense at an offensive premium position. That's probably the least impactful way of being a 2 win player. I also think when looking back on the Kepler decision, there are several considerations. Do you think any combo of Wallner/Larnach etc. can combine to produce 2.0 fWAR throughout a season? You could call it a stretch. Consider the value of however small of a return they could've gotten for Kepler in addition to his salary that could have been spent elsewhere. Those three add up to more than a defense first platoon outfielder with no impactful ceiling for me personally. I understand if not everyone agrees with that, but that's just how I look at it.

Twins Daily Contributor
Posted
33 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Cody, if you paused and used your imagination, I think you could come up with several corresponding moves that would have made more sense. The corresponding move does not have to be permanent, it only has to help make the team better for a short time until another move is needed.

 

 

The Twins clearly feel differently. Larnach was up for Kepler's injury, so when Larnach hit the IL, Wallner came up. Castro has been playing well and now has to be used in CF so they're not sending him down. They're also not going to DFA Solano or Kepler in May no matter how much fans call for it, so those aren't options that can seriously be argued. There isn't much else they could have done.

Posted
28 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Here's the reality (to me). Kepler is most likely a proven mediocrity, but with excellent defense. Because of a combination of injuries, so-so production at the major league level and inconsistent playing time, none of Kirilloff, Wallner or Larnach is truly proven. Maybe i'm holding the bar too high, but after a supposedly sure-thing hitter (Miranda) has fizzled this year, can the Twins count on any of these young(ish) players to be a mainstay? Wallner played mostly when the season had slipped away last year and had a nice cameo last week. Kirlloff has been hounded by injuries and I think some fans and front office people want him to prove they hype before fully committing to him and Larnach has had good moments, bad moments and lot of injuries. The likelihood that one of these guys will be better than Kepler is pretty high. The chances that two will exceed what Max offers are more of an even money thing and having all three thrive is more of a wish than a future reality.

Having Larnach, Kirilloff, and Wallner mashing from the left side added to Lewis (again a projection, not reality), Buxton, Correa and Polanco (or Julien) makes for quite a potent offense. It just hasn't been put together and probably never will. 

Speaking of "never will" or at least I'll believe it when I see it, Max Kepler hasn't played center field in over a year and Byron Buxton hasn't been out there yet this year. Until someone announces that either of these things are on the table, I guess we'll see MAT and Castro as the center field options.

 

 

Proven Mediocrity. 

That isn't a good thing. 

Posted
43 minutes ago, Cody Pirkl said:

How do you figure that? If Kepler weren't here it would have been more ABs for one of the many left handed options. It's not like Kepler is the barrier keeping Garlick from playing everyday.

I’m not suggesting that Garlick would have gotten all (or even most) of Kepler’s at bats.

And in a sense, I’m using Garlick metaphorically. My point is that they have already have had enough injuries that they needed to call up Garlick for a spell. Without Kepler, he gets called up one injury sooner. Taken a step further, if Garlick was called up an injury sooner, that means someone else had to be called up when Garlick got the call. Who is your preference, Mark Contreras or Ryan LaMarre? 

A lot of us have named that the strength of this roster is its depth, even if not everyone has played up to expectations. I just think the “problem” of having to send Wallner down for a time is better than the “problem” of having to call up AAAA players. I’ll say the same thing if Julien is the one sent down to make room for Polanco. 

Posted
18 minutes ago, Cody Pirkl said:

The Twins clearly feel differently. Larnach was up for Kepler's injury, so when Larnach hit the IL, Wallner came up. Castro has been playing well and now has to be used in CF so they're not sending him down. They're also not going to DFA Solano or Kepler in May no matter how much fans call for it, so those aren't options that can seriously be argued. There isn't much else they could have done.

Actually, with an off day coming on Thursday and a bullpen that is not overtaxed at the moment, I wondered about sending down Sands and going with a 12-man staff for a few days. 

Twins Daily Contributor
Posted
11 minutes ago, IndianaTwin said:

Actually, with an off day coming on Thursday and a bullpen that is not overtaxed at the moment, I wondered about sending down Sands and going with a 12-man staff for a few days. 

They technically could but then he has to stay down for 15 days and it'd only be a temporary fix for Wallner staying up. Plus they're going to play Kepler everyday. Just an unfortunate reality. I don't think they want Wallner to stay up unless he's in the lineup near everyday.

Posted
54 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Here's the reality (to me). Kepler is most likely a proven mediocrity, but with excellent defense. Because of a combination of injuries, so-so production at the major league level and inconsistent playing time, none of Kirilloff, Wallner or Larnach is truly proven. Maybe i'm holding the bar too high, but after a supposedly sure-thing hitter (Miranda) has fizzled this year, can the Twins count on any of these young(ish) players to be a mainstay? Wallner played mostly when the season had slipped away last year and had a nice cameo last week. Kirlloff has been hounded by injuries and I think some fans and front office people want him to prove they hype before fully committing to him and Larnach has had good moments, bad moments and lot of injuries. The likelihood that one of these guys will be better than Kepler is pretty high. The chances that two will exceed what Max offers are more of an even money thing and having all three thrive is more of a wish than a future reality.

Having Larnach, Kirilloff, and Wallner mashing from the left side added to Lewis (again a projection, not reality), Buxton, Correa and Polanco (or Julien) makes for quite a potent offense. It just hasn't been put together and probably never will. 

Speaking of "never will" or at least I'll believe it when I see it, Max Kepler hasn't played center field in over a year and Byron Buxton hasn't been out there yet this year. Until someone announces that either of these things are on the table, I guess we'll see MAT and Castro as the center field options.

 

 

I give Kepler credit for being more than “proven mediocrity.” To me, league average hitter with excellent defense and excellent baserunning is more than “mediocre,” but I recognize that we’ll get about as much agreement on TD about the definition of “mediocre” as we do “ace.” :-)

But overall, I agree with your point. And as others have stated or implied, if Wallner (or Larnach) push their way in the door when they have opportunities (and they will, that’s life in a 162-game season), they will gradually take Kepler’s playing time. 

 

Posted
46 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Here's the reality (to me). Kepler is most likely a proven mediocrity, but with excellent defense. Because of a combination of injuries, so-so production at the major league level and inconsistent playing time, none of Kirilloff, Wallner or Larnach is truly proven. Maybe i'm holding the bar too high, but after a supposedly sure-thing hitter (Miranda) has fizzled this year, can the Twins count on any of these young(ish) players to be a mainstay? Wallner played mostly when the season had slipped away last year and had a nice cameo last week. Kirlloff has been hounded by injuries and I think some fans and front office people want him to prove they hype before fully committing to him and Larnach has had good moments, bad moments and lot of injuries. The likelihood that one of these guys will be better than Kepler is pretty high. The chances that two will exceed what Max offers are more of an even money thing and having all three thrive is more of a wish than a future reality.

This is basically what it comes down to.  Kepler being a known, very affordable piece, is insurance against the kids not being alright.  The cost is that we get to have threads like this.  The FO made the right play here even if its not exactly what most of us would have done.  It's not that they are holding the kids down, they are buying a few months to make sure they want to proceed.  It's a perfectly reasonable play.  Someone probably moves at the deadline, but don't be certain its Kepler.

Also, we are seeing the market for LH hitting corner outfielders isn't tremendous.  Every team has several and more are on the way.  I have no data but assume it lines up roughly with the start of the platoon era, 20-30 years ago.  It's the main reason I'm out on the 2 high school kids at the #5 pick.  While one might stick in center, I hate paying the highest price for an asset in the most loaded area.  They have to be generational talents to pay off.  Meanwhile, we can't do better than Garlick from the RH side of the plate.  Nobody cares how bad his defense is because he hits RH. 

Twins Daily Contributor
Posted
17 minutes ago, IndianaTwin said:

I’m not suggesting that Garlick would have gotten all (or even most) of Kepler’s at bats.

And in a sense, I’m using Garlick metaphorically. My point is that they have already have had enough injuries that they needed to call up Garlick for a spell. Without Kepler, he gets called up one injury sooner. Taken a step further, if Garlick was called up an injury sooner, that means someone else had to be called up when Garlick got the call. Who is your preference, Mark Contreras or Ryan LaMarre? 

A lot of us have named that the strength of this roster is its depth, even if not everyone has played up to expectations. I just think the “problem” of having to send Wallner down for a time is better than the “problem” of having to call up AAAA players. I’ll say the same thing if Julien is the one sent down to make room for Polanco. 

The broader point of the entire piece though is that the Twins are struggling offensively and Wallner has been a positive at least for a few days. Ideally they give Wallner room to keep playing and see what happens, but they've set themselves up for that to be impossible and the big payoff is getting Max kepler back in the lineup. I'd just argue they don't have good enough players to leave zero opportunity for prospects to earn jobs without injury. In Kepler's case it feels like he could miss 2 months and have Wallner, Larnach or whoever put up all star numbers and they'd still send them right back down to get their best buddy Max back in the mix.

Twins Daily Contributor
Posted
4 minutes ago, IndianaTwin said:

I give Kepler credit for being more than “proven mediocrity.” To me, league average hitter with excellent defense and excellent baserunning is more than “mediocre,” but I recognize that we’ll get about as much agreement on TD about the definition of “mediocre” as we do “ace.” :-)

But overall, I agree with your point. And as others have stated or implied, if Wallner (or Larnach) push their way in the door when they have opportunities (and they will, that’s life in a 162-game season), they will gradually take Kepler’s playing time. 

 

Max Kepler is the 41st ranked right fielder in baseball by wRC+ minimum 550 plate appearances. 20th in fWAR during that time. That's pretty darn mediocre if you ask me. There's a level of diminishing returns in right field when almost all of the value comes from defense. 

Posted
4 minutes ago, Cody Pirkl said:

They technically could but then he has to stay down for 15 days and it'd only be a temporary fix for Wallner staying up. Plus they're going to play Kepler everyday. Just an unfortunate reality. I don't think they want Wallner to stay up unless he's in the lineup near everyday.

I generally think you’re right, and yes, it would be a temporary thing (hopefully, which means assuming no other injuries), if for no other reason than that they will soon want to get back to 13 pitchers. I also offer this suggestion not knowing the situation on Pagan after getting hit. They may already feel they will be playing a day or two with a 12-man staff. 

I’m not overly concerned on the part about Sands staying down, in that they have a workaround if the transaction involves putting someone on the IL. Alternatively, I’m already suspecting that if Sands gets a long relief outing, they’d put him on the St. Paul Shuffle, so there may already be someone else who could take the 13th slot if needed.  

Posted
1 hour ago, Blyleven2011 said:

An organizational favorite  , not sure that is right , at least since 2019 , great defense  though ....

An organizational favorite  was actually traded and I keep missing him more each day when the veterans can't hit consistently on a daily basis  , hit it where they ain't  ...

Everyone liked arraez's approach at the plate and his defense at first was worthy   ...

He played the game  with a passion , played wherever you asked him to and brought excitement to the game ...

I'd take 9 batters in the lineup if they could all hit like arreaz  and we'd win more games this way than waiting and waiting and waiting for a game changing homerun ...

We are not a homerun hitting team especially in the clutch with runners on base ...

First, the Twins ARE a homerun hitting team - among 30 MLB teams, they have the 7th most home runs.  By contrast, they are 14th in runs scored.

As for Arraez, he had lots of endearing qualities, but statistically he does just one thing really well - get on first base. Of his 68 hits, 55 are singles, 11 doubles, 1 triple, 1 HR. As a result, even with a .376 BA, his OPS is .897. That's very good, but it's not other-worldly.

Even more concerning is the fact with all those times on base, he's only scored 19 runs - that is far fewer than the 31 Byron Buxton has scored for the Twins. The fact is it's a lot tougher to score from first than the other hits, and he also doesn't run particularly well. Sure, it would be nice to have his OBP in the lineup (although I suspect the average will fall as the year goes on), but it's really hard to score a lot of runs with primarily singles hitters. 

Twins Daily Contributor
Posted
2 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

An organizational favorite  , not sure that is right , at least since 2019 , great defense  though ....

An organizational favorite  was actually traded and I keep missing him more each day when the veterans can't hit consistently on a daily basis  , hit it where they ain't  ...

Everyone liked arraez's approach at the plate and his defense at first was worthy   ...

He played the game  with a passion , played wherever you asked him to and brought excitement to the game ...

I'd take 9 batters in the lineup if they could all hit like arreaz  and we'd win more games this way than waiting and waiting and waiting for a game changing homerun ...

We are not a homerun hitting team especially in the clutch with runners on base ...

Max Kepler is the worst qualified player in baseball against left handed pitching since his debut and still gets semi regular starts against left handed pitching. He has a below league average batting line since 2019 in large part because he continues to get these matchups and yet he's an everyday player for the Twins. They've come right out and said they think he's better offensively than his results indicate, which have been below average in every season but 2019 and the shortened 2020. If he were on any other team he'd be in a strict platoon, but the Twins love him too much to make that decision. He's absolutely an organizational favorite. Another team would have cut bait for whatever value he had years ago.

Posted
1 hour ago, Cody Pirkl said:

There isn't much else they could have done.

  1. Leave Kepler on the IL for longer
  2. Option Julien, play Solano at 2B
  3. cut De Leon
  4. Pagan to IL to keep a spot for Wallner

These are the top four obvious moves to me, but there may be others they could have done.

Twins Daily Contributor
Posted
10 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:
  1. Leave Kepler on the IL for longer
  2. Option Julien, play Solano at 2B
  3. cut De Leon
  4. Pagan to IL to keep a spot for Wallner

These are the top four obvious moves to me, but there may be others they could have done.

1. They could have sent Kepler on a rehab stint but they're not just going to keep him on the IL if he's healthy and that would have created a couple more days for Wallner is all

2. They don't want Solano playing 2B and this wouldn't open up any ABs for Wallner

3 and 4. optioning a reliever opens  roster spot for Wallner but not any at bats.

Posted
1 hour ago, IndianaTwin said:

Actually, with an off day coming on Thursday 

I believe Cleveland is on the schedule for Thursday June 1 at Target Field. 

Pablo Lopez vs. Tanner Bibee to kick off a 4 game series. 

The first 10,000 fans get a Twins Water Bottle.  

Posted
1 hour ago, Cody Pirkl said:

1. They could have sent Kepler on a rehab stint but they're not just going to keep him on the IL if he's healthy and that would have created a couple more days for Wallner is all

2. They don't want Solano playing 2B and this wouldn't open up any ABs for Wallner

3 and 4. optioning a reliever opens  roster spot for Wallner but not any at bats.

1. that happens a lot; a few more days to see if Wallner stayed hot, is all we were asking for

2. Solano played 2B for the Giants in 2021. If the Twins don't want Solano playing second base, or getting any at bats, then what should they do with him? I think there's your solution.

3 and 4 - all depends on who is writing the line up card! Maybe all these lineups and transactions are being spit out by a spreadsheet after all... 🙂

Posted

Two sides to this debate:

SIDE A: With all due respect and years of previous fan support, Kepler is an excellent defensive OF and a great overall athlete but is, at best, an average offensive player. And his OPS has been declining for 3 straight seasons. He is what he is, and he isn't getting better. Do you know what Wallner is going to bring? Do we know how he's going to develop and end up? Nope. But he's young, talented, somewhat projectible, and isn't a 29-30yo veteran on the decline with no room for improvement. This all applies to Larnach as well. And while I believe it's generally true it can take a few weeks, even months, for any prospect to rise and fall before begining to "find" themselves and hopefully begin to produce at a more even keel level, how are they supposed to ever do that sitting in AAA behind a "mediocre" veteran who isn't part of the future, and doesn't seem to be helping the present much either?

SIDE B: Larnach, and Krilloff were both coming back from injuries to begin this season. Wallner had about a half season of AAA, even though he looks pretty damn good, he still only had a half year above AA. Was Gordon's 2nd half in 2022 for real? And for a team believing they had a real contending ballclub, it sure makes sense to bring in Gallo to nudge the offense, and to keep the old standby in Kepler for another year. Did we really want to see AAAA guys filling up the OF as they did the last couple of months in 2022? Or were we better off with a little "too much depth" to give injuries and kids time to heal and mature?

Both sides can be right. And IMPO, they are. Gallo will probably be gone after thus season, very possiblybwirh a QO attached to him. And Kepler should also be gone, making room for the "kids" and freeing up a roster spot and $. 

Me personally? Despite appreciating the want to error on the side of depth and caution for 2023, I would have rolled the dice and moved Kepler in the offseason and rolled through the younger players to provide opportunity for immediate and future results. 

Posted
3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I believe Cleveland is on the schedule for Thursday June 1 at Target Field. 

Pablo Lopez vs. Tanner Bibee to kick off a 4 game series. 

The first 10,000 fans get a Twins Water Bottle.  

My bad. Perhaps a little brain fog from feeling a bit dehydrated. 

Verified Member
Posted

They could leave Kepler on the bench as the 4th outfielder. I don't think he has ever been an average hitter for right field. To me in his 8 year career he has only been above average once. Which means he was below average the other 7 seasons. Right field has always been a spot for an excellent hitting, average fielding outfielder. Not a 202 hitting outfielder, who has only average less than 2 put outs per game for his career.

Posted
5 hours ago, Cody Pirkl said:

Max Kepler is the worst qualified player in baseball against left handed pitching since his debut and still gets semi regular starts against left handed pitching. He has a below league average batting line since 2019 in large part because he continues to get these matchups and yet he's an everyday player for the Twins. They've come right out and said they think he's better offensively than his results indicate, which have been below average in every season but 2019 and the shortened 2020. If he were on any other team he'd be in a strict platoon, but the Twins love him too much to make that decision. He's absolutely an organizational favorite. Another team would have cut bait for whatever value he had years ago.

Okay I get the drift now , he's an organizational favorite  but not as much a fan favorite  ...

Arreaz was a fan favorite and not a organizational favorite   ...

Posted

The Guardians have fallen apart.  The Tigers are doing it with smoke and mirrors.  The White Sox have embraced dysfunction.  The Royals are AWOL.  

The Twins of 2023 are going to be able to lollygag around their roster construction in June and July before trading for whatever pieces they may need in the playoffs. 

Relax and enjoy the view of the forest.  The trees will be sorted out eventually!

Posted
7 hours ago, gman said:

They could leave Kepler on the bench as the 4th outfielder. I don't think he has ever been an average hitter for right field. To me in his 8 year career he has only been above average once. Which means he was below average the other 7 seasons. Right field has always been a spot for an excellent hitting, average fielding outfielder. Not a 202 hitting outfielder, who has only average less than 2 put outs per game for his career.

If he's healthy he starts.  I'd like to see more platoon use for him but without any RH hitting outfielders truly in the mix it is was it is.  He will not be benched as, yes, an organizational favorite and well respected veteran but as a solid player that can be counted on.  Would we like more? Sure, but we need all the stability we can get.

Besides, if you bench him his trade value is tanked.  It's low enough as everyone else knows what we have waiting too. 

Posted
12 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

This is basically what it comes down to.  Kepler being a known, very affordable piece, is insurance against the kids not being alright.  The cost is that we get to have threads like this.  The FO made the right play here even if its not exactly what most of us would have done.  It's not that they are holding the kids down, they are buying a few months to make sure they want to proceed.  It's a perfectly reasonable play.  Someone probably moves at the deadline, but don't be certain its Kepler.

Also, we are seeing the market for LH hitting corner outfielders isn't tremendous.  Every team has several and more are on the way.  I have no data but assume it lines up roughly with the start of the platoon era, 20-30 years ago.  It's the main reason I'm out on the 2 high school kids at the #5 pick.  While one might stick in center, I hate paying the highest price for an asset in the most loaded area.  They have to be generational talents to pay off.  Meanwhile, we can't do better than Garlick from the RH side of the plate.  Nobody cares how bad his defense is because he hits RH. 

They kind of are holding Wallner down if they're prioritizing Kepler right now. I'd stop short of saying that penciling in his 700ish OPS next to MAT in CF is the right play at this point. What (positive) change occurs with Kepler in a few months, and if they're not moving him because the LH corner OF market is down, why are the Twins entertaining the idea of selling low on Larnach or Wallner? 

Posted

Right now, Kirilloff and Gallo both need to play every day. I'd also like Larnach and Wallner to have an opportunity to compete for one corner outfield spot. That doesn't leave much room for Kepler. I'm hoping that this is his last chance to keep his spot and if he doesn't get on track fairly soon, he will be moved (going 0-9 with 4 SO since he came back is not going to cut it).

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