Twins beat Berrios at arb hearing

[USAFChief]

In a departure from all things Grateral/Maeda all the time, Heyman (per MLBTradeRumors) is reporting the Twins won their arb hearing with Berrios, and will pay him $4.025M this year instead of $4.4M.

 

I mean, I guess...but it has a sort of "penny wise, pound foolish" feel to me. 

 

Adds more to my gut feeling that a Berrios extension just ain't happenin'.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

[Sssuperdave]

Color me surprised. When was the last time the Twins went all the way to a hearing? I vaguely remember a story about Torri Hunter signing a contract literally outside the courtroom door. Maybe Garza? Or Perkins?

 

Doesn't look good for Berrios staying with the Twins past the arbitration years.

[Doctor Gast]

Sorry to hear that

[h2oface]

Cheap cheap cheap. Spend Millions on lesser vets, and alienate your best pitcher.  All over $375K? Just cheap and not very smart, if you want the player to stay with you. 

[bighat]

Slow down everyone -

 

The Twins have to play it this way. Otherwise, they'll set a precedent that other teams/players will use to offset their hearings moving forward. Essentially, in order to provide a united front, all teams must approach arbitration hearings in this fashion. Sometimes you hear "It's not about the money" - and you know it's about the money. In this case, it really wasn't about the money.

 

This write-up from MLB Trade Rumors explains:

 

"The Twins, like other clubs that have drawn a hard line in comparable situations, surely care less about immediate cost savings than they do about preserving the standards that allow arbitration salaries to remain so manageable.

If the Twins (and every other club) simply conceded and met the player in the middle, those contractual agreements would be used as data points in future arbitration negotiations. Were it not for teams continually drawing a hard line, the Twins and Berrios would’ve been arguing over figures much greater than the ones discussed in today’s hearing. That’s not to suggest that teams are in the right or wrong to take such firm stances — even against their best players — but rather to point out that their motivation for doing so is rather obvious when considering the full breadth of the arbitration mechanism."

[jkcarew]

 

Adds more to my gut feeling that a Berrios extension just ain't happenin'.

I agree. FWIW, I base that on the fact that 2020 went all the way to arbitration. Not on the outcome of the arbitration.

[jkcarew]

 

Slow down everyone -

 

The Twins have to play it this way. Otherwise, they'll set a precedent that other teams/players will use to offset their hearings moving forward. Essentially, in order to provide a united front, all teams must approach arbitration hearings in this fashion. Sometimes you hear "It's not about the money" - and you know it's about the money. In this case, it really wasn't about the money.

 

This write-up from MLB Trade Rumors explains:

 

"The Twins, like other clubs that have drawn a hard line in comparable situations, surely care less about immediate cost savings than they do about preserving the standards that allow arbitration salaries to remain so manageable.

If the Twins (and every other club) simply conceded and met the player in the middle, those contractual agreements would be used as data points in future arbitration negotiations. Were it not for teams continually drawing a hard line, the Twins and Berrios would’ve been arguing over figures much greater than the ones discussed in today’s hearing. That’s not to suggest that teams are in the right or wrong to take such firm stances — even against their best players — but rather to point out that their motivation for doing so is rather obvious when considering the full breadth of the arbitration mechanism."

Yep. Arbitration is a very well-defined process. The process is the process, the steps the steps. It could even be looked at as a 'positive' that the Twins came in so close to the number Berrios's team presented. But, I can't help feeling that there is a 'bad' to this...that being simply that it got all the way to arbitration. This might have been an opportunity to get parties to talk extension...but it seems likely that nothing must have been imminent along those lines. At least to me.

[bighat]

 

Yep. Arbitration is a very well-defined process. The process is the process, the steps the steps. It could even be looked at as a 'positive' that the Twins came in so close to the number Berrios's team presented. But, I can't help feeling that there is a 'bad' to this...that being simply that it got all the way to arbitration. This might have been an opportunity to get parties to talk extension...but it seems likely that nothing must have been imminent along those lines. At least to me.

Oh I agree 100% that there's some "bad" to this, it's unfortunate that Berrios gets labeled a "loser" and the Twins a "winner" in a battle of money. It has to create a bit of a wedge, I'm sure.

 

I don't think this necessarily changes extension talks as they stand. Frankly, I think Berrios is going to be VERY hard to extend and that he wants to pitch in New York or LA and get Wheeler/Cole money while he's at it. He's very talented and he's very driven, I can see him wanting out of what some consider to be an MLB backwater.

 

Winning or going to a World Series AND forking up Wheeler-like money in extension talks will be needed to retain Berrios I'm afraid.

[laloesch]

Not a good sign. Berrios is a goner after arbitration I think.

[Danchat]

Darren Wolfson had said yesterday on the radio that the Twins and Berrios are still far apart on an extension, but there's "no bad blood there". It didn't seem like the arbitration disagreement affected anything. He did mention that Berrios would not be accepting a team-friendly deal and is looking to reset the "arb-extension" market if he does sign.

[h2oface]

 

Slow down everyone -

 

The Twins have to play it this way. Otherwise, they'll set a precedent that other teams/players will use to offset their hearings moving forward. Essentially, in order to provide a united front, all teams must approach arbitration hearings in this fashion. Sometimes you hear "It's not about the money" - and you know it's about the money. In this case, it really wasn't about the money.

 

This write-up from MLB Trade Rumors explains:

 

"The Twins, like other clubs that have drawn a hard line in comparable situations, surely care less about immediate cost savings than they do about preserving the standards that allow arbitration salaries to remain so manageable.

If the Twins (and every other club) simply conceded and met the player in the middle, those contractual agreements would be used as data points in future arbitration negotiations. Were it not for teams continually drawing a hard line, the Twins and Berrios would’ve been arguing over figures much greater than the ones discussed in today’s hearing. That’s not to suggest that teams are in the right or wrong to take such firm stances — even against their best players — but rather to point out that their motivation for doing so is rather obvious when considering the full breadth of the arbitration mechanism."

 

Nobody has to ever stay "in the box". Especially for only $375K. This was a choice, and you may have the correct reasons, but it is still a choice. You never have to stay with the "group". Never. Unless it is collusion. Then you will always do it.

[USAFChief]

Slow down everyone -

 

The Twins have to play it this way. Otherwise, they'll set a precedent that other teams/players will use to offset their hearings moving forward. Essentially, in order to provide a united front, all teams must approach arbitration hearings in this fashion. Sometimes you hear "It's not about the money" - and you know it's about the money. In this case, it really wasn't about the money.

 

This write-up from MLB Trade Rumors explains:

 

"The Twins, like other clubs that have drawn a hard line in comparable situations, surely care less about immediate cost savings than they do about preserving the standards that allow arbitration salaries to remain so manageable.

If the Twins (and every other club) simply conceded and met the player in the middle, those contractual agreements would be used as data points in future arbitration negotiations. Were it not for teams continually drawing a hard line, the Twins and Berrios would’ve been arguing over figures much greater than the ones discussed in today’s hearing. That’s not to suggest that teams are in the right or wrong to take such firm stances — even against their best players — but rather to point out that their motivation for doing so is rather obvious when considering the full breadth of the arbitration mechanism."

Eh...

 

Teams and arb eligible players settle all the time. When was the last Twins hearing? What was so special about THIS one?

 

$375k isnt resetting the arb market much.

[ashbury]

Eh...

 

Teams and arb eligible players settle all the time. When was the last Twins hearing? What was so special about THIS one?

 

$375k isnt resetting the arb market much.

Yeah, the respective numbers we saw are the type where usually the two sides nearly fall over each other to be the first to say "meh, just split the difference?" The fact this didn't happen makes me assume there is some underlying reason, one we would find disquieting if we knew.

[howieramone2]

The Twins did the right thing.You heard it here first, by the time Berrois is able to walk, our favorite team won't skip a beat.

[DocBauer]

Yeah, the respective numbers we saw are the type where usually the two sides nearly fall over each other to be the first to say "meh, just split the difference?" The fact this didn't happen makes me assume there is some underlying reason, one we would find disquieting if we knew.

Or, there was no feeling a settlement needed to be worked out at this time as the Twins FO remains confident they will work out an extension at some point here which very likely raises his 2020 salary anyway.

[USAFChief]

Or, there was no feeling a settlement needed to be worked out at this time as the Twins FO remains confident they will work out an extension at some point here which very likely raises his 2020 salary anyway.

that sounds more like a reason to give Berrios his asking price than not to.

[Dantes929]

I heard they were ready to sign a compromise but the Twins looked at his medical records and determined that he was not suited for  a 250-270 inning workload.

[twinsnorth49]

Thinking Berrios is going to harbour ill feelings over 375K is as silly as thinking the Twins are cheap for not givingit to him. Money talks, if an extension works out with terms Berrios is happy with, there is no reason he won't stay, certainly not this reason. 

[akmanak]

Berrios in the past called the Twins put on spending habits. This year they opened their wallet and shelled out some moolah.

 

With that said Berrios has nothing to complain about and from how the off-season has turned out you would think there is a good chance they give him some decent money to stay.

[Shane Wahl]

After the 2020 season is the perfect time to extend. The two sides will be much closer to each other.

 

[Number3]

So now, over a pittance in today's market, Berrios's motivation will be simply to enhance his own personal worth to another team instead of helping the Twins try to win another Central title. Mixed emotions is never a good thing. $375K is expense money. Twins, please revisit this and pay your All Star even if it was as a replacement.

[nicksaviking]

 

Not a good sign. Berrios is a goner after arbitration I think.

 

Maybe, but not because of this.

 

If the Twins had caved in to Berrios, they'd have 29 other owners to answer to, 29 other owners who have NEVER caved in on this same situation.

 

Berrios and his agent know that it's not personal, and they've both said exactly that.

[nicksaviking]

 

Yeah, the respective numbers we saw are the type where usually the two sides nearly fall over each other to be the first to say "meh, just split the difference?" The fact this didn't happen makes me assume there is some underlying reason, one we would find disquieting if we knew.

 

I know 375K doesn't sound like much in terms of baseball salaries, but what Berrios was asking for would have been the second highest amount ever won, let alone offered, for a pitcher of his service time. The rest of the league would have flayed the Twins had they broken the mold. A mold that has remained the same and favorable to the owners for almost 15 years. 

[twinsnorth49]

So now, over a pittance in today's market, Berrios's motivation will be simply to enhance his own personal worth to another team instead of helping the Twins try to win another Central title. Mixed emotions is never a good thing. $375K is expense money. Twins, please revisit this and pay your All Star even if it was as a replacement.

Berrios’s motivation will be to enhance his own value, period. If he accomplishes that it will help the Twins win another AL Central, they kind of go together.

To think the Twins wouldn’t be one of the teams who he increases his value with, and not sign with them if their offer is fair to him, doesn’t make much sense. The Twins have the luxury of getting ahead of the process, other teams don’t.

[SomeGuy]

 

Eh...

Teams and arb eligible players settle all the time. When was the last Twins hearing? What was so special about THIS one?

$375k isnt resetting the arb market much.

The last hearing I believe was 2018 with Kyle Gibson over 350k (which they also won).

[redstorm]

FWIW

Dan Hayes reported that the Twins wanted to settle, but the Berrios side pushed because it would benefit players in future cases.

[USAFChief]

 

I know 375K doesn't sound like much in terms of baseball salaries, but what Berrios was asking for would have been the second highest amount ever won, let alone offered, for a pitcher of his service time. The rest of the league would have flayed the Twins had they broken the mold. A mold that has remained the same and favorable to the owners for almost 15 years. 

First, It wouldn't even have been precedent setting...by your own statement it would have been the 2nd most for his service time.

 

Second, arb salaries have been creeping up forever, just like other MLB salaries. 

 

Third, a difference of $375K can't, by definition, in relation to today's MLB salary structure, "break" any mold. It's relatively minor creep. 

 

Fourth, in light of the above three items, I highly doubt MLB owners would have "flayed" the Twins for settling, but even if they did, so what? What were they gonna do, not invite the Pohlad's to next winter's owners meetings?

[nicksaviking]

 

FWIW

Dan Hayes reported that the Twins wanted to settle, but the Berrios side pushed because it would benefit players in future cases.

 

That could be good news for an extension then. If Berrios goal with arbitration was just to try to help future players, now that the process is over he may be ready to talk.

 

On the other hand, it sounds a bit like Mookie Betts who always wanted to push the envelope on arbitration and never had interest in an extension because he was looking forward to free agency. If so, not much the Twins can do about that. I'd just be nice to know ahead of time.

[nicksaviking]

 

First, It wouldn't even have been precedent setting...by your own statement it would have been the 2nd most for his service time.

 

Second, arb salaries have been creeping up forever, just like other MLB salaries. 

 

Third, a difference of $375K can't, by definition, in relation to today's MLB salary structure, "break" any mold. It's relatively minor creep. 

 

Fourth, in light of the above three items, I highly doubt MLB owners would have "flayed" the Twins for settling, but even if they did, so what? What were they gonna do, not invite the Pohlad's to next winter's owners meetings?

 

Dontrelle Willis 4.35M arbitration figure from 2006 was only broken once, when Keuchel won the Cy Young award. You really think the rest of the league is going to be fine if the Twins break tradition and roll over? It may still be a token amount, but it would be a big precedent to set and everybody would have to pay more for their 1st year arb pitchers.

 

I'm not defending the practice by the way. This whole procedure is a dog and pony show put on by those cutting the checks so those checks can be smaller than they should. I'm just suggesting this is SOP and nobodies feelings are getting hurt here.

[wabene]

People, including myself once, were saying Sano wanted to play in NY and wouldn't sign. Just sayin.