MadBaum to the D-Backs

[Twins33]

That's kind of my point......they never really tried before.

 

Okay. Then agreed.

 

I do think people have preferences about where they play and it is a big deal. And not wanting to play here is a thing but it’s not every FA.

[The Wise One]

In fairness.....the "didn't want to come here" statement has been made for more than three years.....which is one reason it seems tired. It can't be true for every top FA, there must be other reasons also in play......

 

also, that's why I said it is the FO's job to fix this. Not that they broke it, but it is their job to fix it.

In the last 14 years there have been 10 signing of top 5 free agents to teams not on the east coast, west coast or Chicago. They have gone to teams with recent World Series experience or runs of success. The 3 exceptions are Cain to the Brewers, Bourn to the Indians,, Bum and Grienke to Arizona <not really heartland> and Chapman to the Reds. KC resigned Gordon. So it would be pretty much true that without the recent history of winning, you are not drawing top free agents to the center of the country

[cardsfan]

For those would rather "spend that money elsewhere" where are you going to spend it? We have a current payroll of $100 million and can allegedly spend $130-140 million. There aren't many places left to spend it.

[twinsnorth49]

How is it obvious? The Twins didn't offer $15 mil more. The Twins didn't even offer the same as Arizona.

 

As far as I know, Bumgarner took the top dollar offer, and Wheeler took an offer from the better team within 2-3% of the top offer. Neither signing offers much evidence on non-monetary, "non-baseball" factors.

His expressed desire to play in Arizona and him mentioning he left money on the table to do so. Also, you only need to listen at how much his family has enjoyed being there over the years.

It was pretty obvious, I don’t say that condescendingly.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

His expressed desire to play in Arizona and him mentioning he left money on the table to do so. Also, you only need to listen at how much his family has enjoyed being there over the years.
It was pretty obvious, I don’t say that condescendingly.

Thanks, I just saw the Athletic article which laid out some details. I'm still not sure I believe he actually left money on the table -- that could easily be a pride/exaggeration thing -- but he definitely seems to like it there.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

His expressed desire to play in Arizona and him mentioning he left money on the table to do so. Also, you only need to listen at how much his family has enjoyed being there over the years.

It was pretty obvious, I don’t say that condescendingly.

His desire to play in Arizona is clear. On the other hand, these are his earning years, and in my opinion, he can still be a top starter. How about a short term high AAV or front-loaded contract with an opt-out... did the Twins seriously propose anything like that?

[nicksaviking]

His desire to play in Arizona is clear. On the other hand, these are his earning years, and in my opinion, he can still be a top starter. How about a short term high AAV or front-loaded contract with an opt-out... did the Twins seriously propose anything like that?

He got $85M and got to go to the place he wanted. After all interested teams made their offers why would he go back and negotiate with any team other than the place he wanted to go to?

[beckmt]

 

His expressed desire to play in Arizona and him mentioning he left money on the table to do so. Also, you only need to listen at how much his family has enjoyed being there over the years.
It was pretty obvious, I don’t say that condescendingly.

I saw the same quote from mlbtraderumors.  He claimed he left a fair amount of money on the table and that Arizona was his first choice to sign with, even above the Giants.  Hard to fault the FO on this one, since we don't know what he turned down, and how big an overpay it would have taken to sign him.  My guess is that unless the Twins went in with crazy money, they had no chance.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

He got $85M and got to go to the place he wanted. After all interested teams made their offers why would he go back and negotiate with any team other than the place he wanted to go to?

My reply would be: Why couldn’t the Twins make a serious offer? If the Twins had made a competitive offer we all would have heard about it, to the moon and back. The Twins *should* be paying the most for pitching. They need it the baddest!

[nicksaviking]

My reply would be: Why couldn’t the Twins make a serious offer? If the Twins had made a competitive offer we all would have heard about it, to the moon and back. The Twins *should* be paying the most for pitching. They need it the baddest!

How do you know they didn’t?

 

But why would it matter if his heart was already set on AZ?

[drivlikejehu]

The reporting is pretty clear and unequivocal . . . Bumgarner told his agent he wanted to play in Arizona, period, end of story. Obviously, Arizona could have just refused to engage, but once they did, that was the end of it.

 

It's easy to say inane stuff on a message board like, the Twins should have offered him a ridiculous overpay just to prove how serious they are. Of course, if the Twins did that, the same fans would turn around and say it was a meaningless gesture because the Twins knew Bumgarner wanted to be in Arizona. So it's just trash talk, there's no rational basis to it at all. Bumgarner had his priorities and once the Twins recognized that, there was no sense in pretending otherwise.

[h2oface]

Maybe if they would have hired Ricky Carmichael to design a motocross course for him to ride on near target field......... gotta get creative.

[Dave Overlund]

 

How many World Series have those moves gotten the Brewers to let alone how many have they won? Lorenzo Cain's deal is terrible and limiting their ability to make moves. They signed Grandal to a 1 year deal which is exactly the kind of move the Twins have been trying to do and you complain about. The Yelich trade has been fantastic, but he was a 15-20 HR guy before that trade and nobody expected him to suddenly be a 40 HR guy. The Sabathia trade got them a first round playoff exit. You know, like the Twins always have. So basically you want the Twins to have the same results, but get there in a different way and raise their risk going 80-82, 77-85, 96-66, 83-79, 74-88, 82-80, 68-94, 73-89 in the next 8 seasons. The Sabathia trade was so great and got them a 3-1 first round exit followed by 1 playoff appearance in the next 8 seasons while only finishing above 3rd place in their own division that 1 time in 8 years. 

 

You just want splashy moves for guys whos names you know cuz it makes you feel like they have a better chance of winning in 1 specific season. And that's fine. But don't pretend the Brewers are anymore likely to win a World Series than the Twins. They have one of the 5 best players on the planet on a super team friendly deal and are still no better than the Twins.

Didn't the Brewers make the NLCS in 2018? And didn't Cain win a Gold Glove last year?

 

The Brewers have made two trips to the NLCS since 2011 and have a 12-14 playoff record. The Twins have made zero trips to the ALCS since 2003 and have a 2-19 playoff record since then. 

 

The 1991 World Series, which was nearly 30 years ago, means nothing to me at this point. 

[Monkeypaws]

Definitive quotes from MB here: https://www.mlb.com/news/madison-bumgarner-eyed-d-backs-from-start

 

 

“We definitely left some money on the table,” Bumgarner said. “You can say that.”

 

[KirbyDome89]

 

To be perfectly honest, I think this site pushes a lot of the "players don't want to come here" agenda.....at least lately.  Wheeler stated he wanted to be on the East Coast and word came out Madbum loved Arizona, this after knowing he has been an NL pitcher his whole career and he loves to bat. There was reports that Ohtani wanted to be on one of the coasts, which makes sense as the Asian communities are a lot stronger. LaVelle posted that Ryu didn't want to come to Minnesota and was quickly corrected by a Korean beat writer that there was no truth to that.

 

How many free agents have singled out not coming to Minnesota?  Wheeler stated he wanted to be on the East Coast, and the narrative here comes out that he hates Minnesota and would never come here.  It really seems that players boycotting Minnesota for whatever reason has just turned into a big joke with not much substance.

I don't doubt players have a hierarchy of destinations, anybody would. My issue with the "they don't want to play here," cry isn't that it's warping reality, so much as it isn't based on reality whatsoever. We can use Bumgarner since he's the latest example. It's entirely believable that he wanted to be in AZ so badly that he left a good amount of money on the table and refused to consider any other destination. On the other hand, if this organization was truly "in," on him then they should've been the high bidder being rejected. Given the "woe is me," local reporting and the fact that the Twins PR loves to tout the "we're after X," lines and proudly report their failed bids, I have a hard time imagining MN was the team that offered 20M more than the DBacks yet we've heard nothing about it. 

 

The mantra really starts to fall apart when you stack up the other FAs. They underbid on Wheeler and Darvish. They didn't even bother to bid on Ohtani. "They don't want to come here," seems to be a convenient excuse/shield for the FO and ownership, and/or a coping mechanism for fans, particularly on this site. It's the most basal form of Occam's Razor. Are all these FAs just turned off by spending 3-4 in MN during the summer, or does this organization continue to fail in exceeding top FA offers? I'm more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when/if their top dollar offers are turned down, but as of right now we have yet to see that happen. 

[chpettit19]

 

Didn't the Brewers make the NLCS in 2018? And didn't Cain win a Gold Glove last year?

 

The Brewers have made two trips to the NLCS since 2011 and have a 12-14 playoff record. The Twins have made zero trips to the ALCS since 2003 and have a 2-19 playoff record since then. 

 

The 1991 World Series, which was nearly 30 years ago, means nothing to me at this point. 

So what were their big moves since your arbitrary pick of 2011? Trade for Yelich, signing Cain, and signing Grandal? I am struggling to see where they drastically differ from the Twins in their team building. I already addressed those 3 moves.

 

Yelich more than doubled his HR rate after the trade and has turned that into the best trade of the decade. I'm ok with you being upset the Twins didn't make a similar trade, but it's also unrealistic to expect trades to go that way. Cain is a bad contract. Nobody would give him that deal on the market today. He is aging very quickly (I live in Milwaukee so I hear the complaints about his bat constantly). If a gold glove is what you're looking for in your biggest signing I can promise you you're not winning any WS cuz of that signing. And Grandal is the exact sort of contract the Twins continue to try to sign and you complain about.

 

You act like the Brewers are going out and signing Cole and Strasburg deals or something. They're not. They are operating exactly as the Twins are. And you didn't say you want ALCS trips, you said you want WS rings. And these "big moves" you claim the Brewers are making haven't gotten them any of those and they are about to be priced out of their core and have to start trading guys. So, again, why do you want to be the Brewers? They're the Twins with slightly more success recently, but still no real WS threat despite having a top 5 overall player on their roster for insanely cheap.

 

I don't mind you, or anyone else, being frustrated. Just want people to look at it realistically and quit acting like the Twins are doing drastically less than they should be doing and throwing out teams like the Brewers as teams who do things drastically different and claim it's leading to these magical WS runs the Twins could be on if they'd just spend stupid money or throw prospects away at random. Things haven't worked out how any of us want and it bums me out too, but I certainly prefer a constant threat to make the playoffs over the last decade of completely unwatchable baseball.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Definitive quotes from MB here: https://www.mlb.com/news/madison-bumgarner-eyed-d-backs-from-start

 

“We definitely left some money on the table,” Bumgarner said. “You can say that.”

 

FWIW, I don't think there has been any corroboration for this claim yet, it's just what Bumgarner and his agent have been telling people.

 

[USAFChief]

 

As for the taxes, not certain but Arizona has either a tiny tax or no state income tax. If that is correct, say 8% on over $40,000,000 works out to be more than $3,000,000. May not be the first thing he thought of, but I can guarantee that his agent and financial advisors have it high on the list of things he should consider. If they didn't, they should be replaced.

Arizona state income taxes range from 2.59% to 4.5%. I think we can assume Bumgarner will fall into the 4.5% bracket.

 

As has been noted elsewhere, he also pays state income taxes in states where he plays road games.

 

I strongly doubt state income taxes are much of a factor.

[rdehring]

 

Arizona state income taxes range from 2.59% to 4.5%. I think we can assume Bumgarner will fall into the 4.5% bracket.

As has been noted elsewhere, he also pays state income taxes in states where he plays road games.

I strongly doubt state income taxes are much of a factor.

Ok, 4.5% versus 9.5% on $42,500,000 is about $2,125,00 over the term of the contract.  And that is net as you no longer get to deduct it on your FED return.  I expect he has several advisors who don't look at that as being a minor factor.  Two million dollars over five years is a lot of money.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

So what were their big moves since your arbitrary pick of 2011? Trade for Yelich, signing Cain, and signing Grandal? I am struggling to see where they drastically differ from the Twins in their team building. I already addressed those 3 moves.

 

Yelich more than doubled his HR rate after the trade and has turned that into the best trade of the decade. I'm ok with you being upset the Twins didn't make a similar trade, but it's also unrealistic to expect trades to go that way. Cain is a bad contract. Nobody would give him that deal on the market today. He is aging very quickly (I live in Milwaukee so I hear the complaints about his bat constantly). If a gold glove is what you're looking for in your biggest signing I can promise you you're not winning any WS cuz of that signing. And Grandal is the exact sort of contract the Twins continue to try to sign and you complain about.

 

You act like the Brewers are going out and signing Cole and Strasburg deals or something. They're not. They are operating exactly as the Twins are. And you didn't say you want ALCS trips, you said you want WS rings. And these "big moves" you claim the Brewers are making haven't gotten them any of those and they are about to be priced out of their core and have to start trading guys. So, again, why do you want to be the Brewers? They're the Twins with slightly more success recently, but still no real WS threat despite having a top 5 overall player on their roster for insanely cheap.

 

I don't mind you, or anyone else, being frustrated. Just want people to look at it realistically and quit acting like the Twins are doing drastically less than they should be doing and throwing out teams like the Brewers as teams who do things drastically different and claim it's leading to these magical WS runs the Twins could be on if they'd just spend stupid money or throw prospects away at random. Things haven't worked out how any of us want and it bums me out too, but I certainly prefer a constant threat to make the playoffs over the last decade of completely unwatchable baseball.

 

You're right about Grandal being a Twins-like contract.

 

But I'm going to remind you that you brought up the Brewers in this thread, perhaps unfairly alongside the White Sox as clubs not worth emulating. There are a lot of similarities between the Brewers and Twins these days, but also a few notable differences in process and results to date which a Twins fan naturally may want us to emulate.

 

I'll also caution you to tone down hyperbole like "Cole or Strasburg" and "spend stupid money or throw prospects away at random". I don't believe any of those things have been said in this exchange, and introducing them is only going to derail discussion, not advance it.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Ok, 4.5% versus 9.5% on $42,500,000 is about $2,125,00 over the term of the contract.  And that is net as you no longer get to deduct it on your FED return.  I expect he has several advisors who don't look at that as being a minor factor.  Two million dollars over five years is a lot of money.

And what do those advisers say when Bumgarner asks in reply, "But where are my horses?"

[rdehring]

 

And what do those advisers say when Bumgarner asks in reply, "But where are my horses?"

Not saying that wasn't the reason he decided to go to Arizona.  Just that everyone seems to be pooh poohing that Two million dollars is nothing.  Well to me it isn't...that's all I'm saying.

[chpettit19]

 

You're right about Grandal being a Twins-like contract.

 

But I'm going to remind you that you brought up the Brewers in this thread, perhaps unfairly alongside the White Sox as clubs not worth emulating. There are a lot of similarities between the Brewers and Twins these days, but also a few notable differences in process and results to date which a Twins fan naturally may want us to emulate.

 

I'll also caution you to tone down hyperbole like "Cole or Strasburg" and "spend stupid money or throw prospects away at random". I don't believe any of those things have been said in this exchange, and introducing them is only going to derail discussion, not advance it.

I was not the one who brought up the Brewers, White Sox, or any other teams in this thread. I simply responded to others who said that they were making moves the Twins refuse to and I disputed that claim. And I have continued to speak to the lack of notable differences in process outside of 2 moves. I can bring up the Brewers continuing to bring in AAAA players and veterans on 1 or 2 year deals in the last week if anyone would like more evidence that outside of a very limited number of outlier moves the teams operate almost identically. Every team wishes their team traded for a high BA, low power guy who then turned into a high BA, high power MVP candidate. That is not a difference in operating procedure, but instead a trade that turned out way better than anyone could or would have predicted. So the only real difference is the Cain deal and fans here in Milwaukee complain about it almost as much as Twins fans complain about them not signing similar deals.

 

I will, however, tone down the comments about spending "stupid" money as that is not necessary and I apologize. In my opinion signing 30+ year old pitchers to 5 year deals is not a way for the Twins to build and maintain a consistently good to great team and I do stand by that. The idea that we should "do whatever it takes" has been brought up on this thread, though, and that would include things like trading whatever prospects the Blue Jays and Mets were asking for at the deadline and paying any FA price to sign big name pitchers.

[ashbury]

FWIW, I don't think there has been any corroboration for this claim yet, it's just what Bumgarner and his agent have been telling people.

 

The five teams on his no-trade list would be very illuminating to this discussion.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

And I have continued to speak to the lack of notable differences in process outside of 2 moves.

One big move can represent a notable difference, though. No team makes major Yelich or Cole type trades every year, so if you're looking for a higher threshold than 1 or 2, you're not going to find it. But having even 1 or 2 every few years can be a big step over a FO (and franchise?) that doesn't have any so far.

 

Now, the Twins FO has only been at the wheel for 3 years, so it's quite possible that move is still coming for us. But until they do it, I understand some fan anxiety on the issue.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The five teams on his no-trade list would be very illuminating to this discussion.

That would be interesting! I wonder if we'll ever see it, though? It's not likely to be relevant for several years, and he probably gets to change the 5 teams each season.

 

But yeah, if the Angels and White Sox were on it now, that would suggest they made a substantial bid for his services. Although if the Twins were on it too, maybe not.

[ewen21]

In the plainest terms,. according to his own words, Bumgarner wanted to go to Arizona.  That means HE DIDN'T WANT TO COME HERE.  He wanted to go to Arizona.

 

Get over it guys

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

In the plainest terms,. according to his own words, Bumgarner wanted to go to Arizona.  That means HE DIDN'T WANT TO COME HERE.  He wanted to go to Arizona.

 

Get over it guys

But then Gerrit Cole wanted to go to LA, too. This cuts both ways.

[Shaitan]

 

I will, however, tone down the comments about spending "stupid" money as that is not necessary and I apologize. In my opinion signing 30+ year old pitchers to 5 year deals is not a way for the Twins to build and maintain a consistently good to great team and I do stand by that. The idea that we should "do whatever it takes" has been brought up on this thread, though, and that would include things like trading whatever prospects the Blue Jays and Mets were asking for at the deadline and paying any FA price to sign big name pitchers.

 

The Mets and Blue Jays are two great examples of teams who often "do whatever it takes" with free agent contracts. Both are often big spenders with little to show for it (in terms of winning percentage or post-season appearances).

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The Mets and Blue Jays are two great examples of teams who often "do whatever it takes" with free agent contracts. Both are often big spenders with little to show for it (in terms of winning percentage or post-season appearances).

In terms of them being big FA spenders, is that more perception that reality? Toronto's biggest FA contract ever is Russell Martin, then maybe AJ Burnett and BJ Ryan. I don't think they've been much of a player at the top of the FA market since the mid-1990s.

 

The Mets have spent big a little more recently, with Carlos Beltran and maybe Yoenis Cespedes, but even then it seems like they are absent from big free agent bidding more often than present, for a team from the NY market.