Front Page: The Twins Should be Dealing With the Marlins

[railmarshalljon]

 

 

Rosario for Price and 21 million from Redsox. Twins net out adding 17 million to payroll and get a good starting pitcher. May have enough in budget to sign Donaldson. so that makes the decision based on how much of a difference is there between Larnach or Killeroff and Rosario next season?

 

Why would the Red Sox want Rosario? They already have Benitendi in left and Betts in Right.

 

The difference between Rosario and Larnach/Kirilloff? I'd say substantial, as neither of the latter group have seen a pitch above AA. To bet on them making an impact next year would be a gamble at best.

 

[Twins1fan]

Rosario is a middle of lineup hitter who has proved himself at the highest level. Why do we want to trade him for a potential #3 starter who has very little success at the highest level.I understand the pipeline is full and Eddie only has 2 years left but as everyone is saying the window is open now. I think we need the everyday player who has the track record much more than a starting pitcher who potentially could help us.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Rosario is a middle of lineup hitter who has proved himself at the highest level. Why do we want to trade him for a potential #3 starter who has very little success at the highest level.I understand the pipeline is full and Eddie only has 2 years left but as everyone is saying the window is open now. I think we need the everyday player who has the track record much more than a starting pitcher who potentially could help us.

Corey Dickerson and Cole Kalhoun have performed equally to, or better than, Rosario, and are available in free agency for less than what Rosario will make in arbitration over the next two years:

 

wRC+, 2019 and career

 

Dickerson: 127 and 117

Calhoun: 108 and 105

Rosario: 103 and 105

 

I think the theory would be, if you can get something useful for Rosario, you can sign one of those guys as a replacement, and it will be a net gain.

 

(Of course, I doubt how much we can get something useful for Rosario right now, especially with those guys still available in FA.)

[Mr. Brooks]

Corey Dickerson and Cole Kalhoun have performed equally to, or better than, Rosario, and are available in free agency for less than what Rosario will make in arbitration over the next two years:

 

wRC+, 2019 and career

 

Dickerson: 127 and 117

Calhoun: 108 and 105

Rosario: 103 and 105

 

I think the theory would be, if you can get something useful for Rosario, you can sign one of those guys as a replacement, and it will be a net gain.

 

(Of course, I doubt how much we can get something useful for Rosario right now, especially with those guys still available in FA.)

The flip side to that would be, if those guys are viewed equal or better than Rosario, than why would the Marlins trade for Rosario rather than just sign one of those guys for less money?

[Mike Sixel]

The flip side to that would be, if those guys are viewed equal or better than Rosario, than why would the Marlins trade for Rosario rather than just sign one of those guys for less money?

That was his point

[Mr. Brooks]

That was his point

I took his point to be that the Twins could trade Rosario for pitching then sign one of those free agents.

[USAFChief]

I took his point to be that the Twins could trade Rosario for pitching then sign one of those free agents.

maybe they have wives/fiances who dont like the weather in Miami.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The flip side to that would be, if those guys are viewed equal or better than Rosario, than why would the Marlins trade for Rosario rather than just sign one of those guys for less money?

I agree. That's what I basically said, in the last paragraph.

 

Up to that point, I was just responding to the other poster's general assertion that Rosario is too good/valuable to trade for something useful. He isn't, really -- but it's moot because it's unlikely that we can right now.

[Twins1fan]

I don't believe I used the word useful. My point whether you agree or not is that 2 more years of Rosario are worth more than to trade him for a #3 or #4 pitcher with little history of success and having a good chance of being mediocre at best. 

[tony&rodney]

Somebody has a talent evaluation out on Alcantara. Would Larnach and Enlow be enough for Miami?

[AZTwin]

Somebody has a talent evaluation out on Alcantara. Would Larnach and Enlow be enough for Miami?

Enlow and then a guy like Tyler Wells would do it. Might be overpaying but I think that’s pretty close

[Linus]

Enlow and then a guy like Tyler Wells would do it. Might be overpaying but I think that’s pretty close

I would do that deal in a heartbeat which means it ain’t happening

[Otto von Ballpark]

Enlow and then a guy like Tyler Wells would do it. Might be overpaying but I think that’s pretty close

I understand you are personally pessimistic Alcantra, but saying this offer "would do it" is frankly insulting to the Twins FO (not to mention the Marlins). You may as well say 3/45 will sign Ryu or Donaldson here.

 

You don't have to like Alcantra or want him on your team, you can say you wouldn't offer any more than this, that's all fine -- but you can't pretend the player is actually available that cheaply.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Actual Twins trade rumor alert!

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/12/tradefa-rumblings-arenado-keuchel-cards-twins-marlins-mets-correa.html

 

At this week’s Winter Meetings, Miami and Minnesota discussed a trade that would see the Marlins send right-hander Elieser Hernandez to the Twins for outfielder Jake Cave

[goulik]

I see your Jake Cave for Elieser Hernandez and raise you a LaMonte Wade, Eddie Rosario, and Trevor Larnach, and two non top 25 prospects for Alcantara and Hernandez?!? If you still want Cave I’ll sub him for Wade or even heck, throw him in in place of one of those top 25s?!?

[Rosterman]

Eliser is not someone you go after if you are a competing team. Of course, you are substituing out Cave for him. And is he better than Smeltzer of Dobnak at this point in time, and how does he compare to other arms in the system? The bigger question, the NOT need for Cave,

[jorgenswest]

Hernandez was a rule 5 pick up from the Astros prior to 2018. The 2018 season was a lost season of development stashed on the major league roster. In 2019 he started in AAA and was lights out for 9 starts. He came up in June and had several good outings mixed with a few really bad ones. He has 2 options remaining.

 

He would be a steal in a trade for Jake Cave.

[AZTwin]

Hernandez was a rule 5 pick up from the Astros prior to 2018. The 2018 season was a lost season of development stashed on the major league roster. In 2019 he started in AAA and was lights out for 9 starts. He came up in June and had several good outings mixed with a few really bad ones. He has 2 options remaining.

 

He would be a steal in a trade for Jake Cave.

I agree that this would be a good move.

[Battle ur tail off]

Just a waste of time IMO for the Twins to even be worried about trades like this right now. Go after these guys after the dust has setttled. 

 

Of course, maybe they were just blown away that someone would even want Jake Cave. Maybe that is the reason for them to even have this discussion. 

 

Either way, this kind of low end move is typical and something I feel will have little to no impact to the team. 

 

They should be using their time to pull out all the stops to get who they want in Free Agency, or to trade for guys that are actually worth something. This guy here is another #5 starter type.  

[ChrisKnutson]

I like Hernandez, but Cave for Stanek makes much more sense.

[Dman]

 

Hernandez was a rule 5 pick up from the Astros prior to 2018. The 2018 season was a lost season of development stashed on the major league roster. In 2019 he started in AAA and was lights out for 9 starts. He came up in June and had several good outings mixed with a few really bad ones. He has 2 options remaining.

He would be a steal in a trade for Jake Cave.

 

Until I read this I was thinking we don't need another number 5 starter with 5 ERA.  I checked and you are correct he did have outstanding year in AAA.  I don't think any of our young number 5's posted a 1.13 ERA along with his awesome K rate.  So he appears to have the stuff but can he get it to translate?

 

He also doesn't have a track record of being overly dominant from level to level throughout his career so he might be just like the number 5's we already have with a little more potential or he might not have the stamina to be a starter and need to move to the pen. It is a more interesting proposition though now that I dig deeper.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Until I read this I was thinking we don't need another number 5 starter with 5 ERA.  I checked and you are correct he did have outstanding year in AAA.  I don't think any of our young number 5's posted a 1.13 ERA along with his awesome K rate.  So he appears to have the stuff but can he get it to translate?

 

He also doesn't have a track record of being overly dominant from level to level throughout his career so he might be just like the number 5's we already have with a little more potential or he might not have the stamina to be a starter and need to move to the pen. It is a more interesting proposition though now that I dig deeper.

Either way, it probably doesn't matter. If this is what is being reported, that means one of the teams balked at an offer. 

To me, anything better than a bucket of kentucky fried chicken is a good return for Jake Cave. I'm certain Miami wanted something else in the deal. 

[whosafraidofluigirussolo]

 

I see your Jake Cave for Elieser Hernandez and raise you a LaMonte Wade, Eddie Rosario, and Trevor Larnach, and two non top 25 prospects for Alcantara and Hernandez?!? If you still want Cave I’ll sub him for Wade or even heck, throw him in in place of one of those top 25s?!?

 

Not sure that "Miami is looking for a lefthanded-hitting outfielder" translates to "they want to trade for three lefthanded-hitting outfielders at once"!

 

Either way, it probably doesn't matter. If this is what is being reported, that means one of the teams balked at an offer. 

To me, anything better than a bucket of kentucky fried chicken is a good return for Jake Cave. I'm certain Miami wanted something else in the deal. 

Or it means that this is the kind of deal that both teams would be just as happy to revisit at the end of the offseason. Marlins would prefer to aim higher for a lefty-hitting OF, Twins would prefer to explore other rotation options first, but there's a framework they could come back to later if needed.

(Not necessarily disputing that MIA would want more than Cave in such a deal.)

[cardsfan]

Alcantra doesn't reach arbitration for two more seasons. Though I wonder why the Marlins traded Zac Gallen to Arizona for a young minor leaguer.

[darin617]

 

Rosario is a middle of lineup hitter who has proved himself at the highest level. Why do we want to trade him for a potential #3 starter who has very little success at the highest level.I understand the pipeline is full and Eddie only has 2 years left but as everyone is saying the window is open now. I think we need the everyday player who has the track record much more than a starting pitcher who potentially could help us.

 

It just shows he doesn't have as great of trade value that people think.  He has such great skills but just can't seem to get them together at the same time.

[goulik]

Not sure that "Miami is looking for a lefthanded-hitting outfielder" translates to "they want to trade for three lefthanded-hitting outfielders at once"

I wasn't trying to make a serious trade offer, I was sarcastically saying I want a lot more in a trade.

[Dman]

I was trying to find more info on Elieser Hernandez and found the following article.  It looks like his slider took off and really helped propel him back to the major leagues.  The thing is he has been prone to the long ball and he may be just a two pitch pitcher which might ultimately land him in the pen.  If the guy could take the next step he might be a mid rotation starter as he has a good fastball and decent control.  He could also regress and end up a AAAA player.  Hopefully scouts have a better idea of what he most likely becomes.

 

I know a lot of people on here are not big fans of Jake Cave but his OPS was as good as Rosario's last year and he is an above average defender in left field.   He would be a good get for the Marlins especially for a Rule V pick that might not end up a starter. Even in a straight up one for one trade I think the Marlins have less risk for a good outcome than the Twins.

 

For the Twins to make this trade they would have to see Hernandez as an upgrade over the current glut of fifth starter material they already have in Graterol, Thorpe, Smeltzer, Poppin, Dobnak, and Maybe Littel.  Not to mention the guys on the way in Balazovich, Duran, Colina, Vallimont and Sands and possibly Enlow if he breaks out.  That's a lot of guys with 5th starter potential.  If they see him as a dominant reliever as his floor then maybe that changes things.

 

The Twins know what they have in Cave and anything they get in return for him better be better than Luis Gill the guy they gave up to get him.  I am not sure Hernandez is.  On the other hand we have a glut of outfielders with more likely on the way so maybe this is the best they can get and it helps remove an outfielder from the 40 man and gain what appears to be Hernanadez's floor which is a solid reliever.  Tough call for me on this one.  Maybe that is what makes it a good trade?

[Oldgoat_MN]

 

I was trying to find more info on Elieser Hernandez and found the following article.  It looks like his slider took off and really helped propel him back to the major leagues.  

...

I know a lot of people on here are not big fans of Jake Cave but his OPS was as good as Rosario's last year and he is an above average defender in left field.   He would be a good get for the Marlins especially for a Rule V pick that might not end up a starter. Even in a straight up one for one trade I think the Marlins have less risk for a good outcome than the Twins.

...

 Tough call for me on this one.  Maybe that is what makes it a good trade?

This entire comment was well worded.

Jake Cave, when he started getting regular at bats in the second half, posted a line of:

.306/.383/.581 (.964)

I'd be running around the Winter Meetings with many buckets of KFC if the return was typically that good. Don't really understand the need to belittle players whom one doesn't particularly care for.

 

Also, the article you referred to was interesting.

"What’s been even better for the Marlins is that their pitching has been on a progressive climb upwards. Since the beginning of May, they rank 19th in fWAR, seventh in ERA, 16th in FIP, and 17th in strikeout-rate among the league."

 

Is the author aware that there are only 15 teams in a league?

[Otto von Ballpark]

Also, the article you referred to was interesting.

"What’s been even better for the Marlins is that their pitching has been on a progressive climb upwards. Since the beginning of May, they rank 19th in fWAR, seventh in ERA, 16th in FIP, and 17th in strikeout-rate among the league."

 

Is the author aware that there are only 15 teams in a league?

Some use "league" to refer to all MLB (30 teams). It is the Major *League*, after all.