How high would you go for Cole?

[ewen21]

 

How well has not signing big time free agents worked out for this team?

How well did it work out for San Diego and Philadelphia?  They signed the two big time free agents on the market last year.

 

 

[goulik]

How well did it work out for San Diego and Philadelphia?  They signed the two big time free agents on the market last year.

Honestly though, how good were the Phillies or Padres in 2018? Padres won 66 and the Phillies won 80. Were coming off 101. These are not apples to apples.

[Mike Sixel]

How well did it work out for San Diego and Philadelphia? They signed the two big time free agents on the market last year.

You didn't answer the question. And, both of those guys were signed to very long term deals, with the knowledge it wouldn't work in year one. I don't understand how anyone is judging those deals in one year.

[beckmt]

I am in for whatever it takes.  We need to win and maybe overpay for one FA to prove we want to do this.  It might not work out, price of poker.  

Cole 9/320 or 10/350  with hopefully a lot of insurance.

Ryu 4/72

Baumgarner - Do not like the risk here, but think he has the best chance of being a pitcher later in his career.  5/105.  

If Twins fail here, teams are going to know they have Twins over a barrel, price on decent starting pitching will surprise you on how much they want.  They are all going to want to win the deal. 

Twins cannot afford to fail here.

[goulik]

Well, Cole exceeded all expectations and Beckmt’s 9/320. SMH. This is ridiculousness.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/12/yankees-to-sign-gerrit-cole.html

[Tomj14]

 

And you now have the high bid both in dollars and years on MadBum... Congrats!

If the Twins want him I am guessing that is what it will cost, Corbin was 6/140 and didn't have the track record Madbum does they are the same age, but Corbin was one year younger at the time of the contract.

 

I get people not wanting to spend that kind of money, but that is the cost of pitching in the MLB.

IMO you don't tear down a tear to build it back up to make a multiple year run, then complain you can't do it because of payroll.

It looks like if you include last year, the Twins have have least 3/4 more years on this run, and if anybody thinks they are going to do it while keeping their payroll at 130 it isn't going to happen, during this run they should be able to maintain 140-150 and maybe once or twice hit 160. And signing Cole or Madbum isn't going to hinder those numbers.

 

How well did it work out for San Diego and Philadelphia?  They signed the two big time free agents on the market last year.

Slightly less than Washington or Houston, so far, or for that matter Boston with Price.

 

[ewen21]

 

Honestly though, how good were the Phillies or Padres in 2018? Padres won 66 and the Phillies won 80. Were coming off 101. These are not apples to apples.

Correct.  It was a simplistic statement, but it followed up a statement that was as simplistic and two dimensional.

[ewen21]

This team needs to be willing to make trades for pitching and it simply doesn't have the insight or the stones to do so.  Houston traded to get Cole.  The Twins tend to fall in love with prospects and treat them like they are untouchable.  I thought we were insane to view Buxton in that way when we could have gotten Syndergaard.

 

Prospects and players in general are assets. Trading one is sometimes the best way to bring in another asset to satisfy a need.  The Twins ought to be looking to do that and they just don't have the stomach for it.  We also need learn how to develop pitchers.  We have been extremely poor in that area.  Where are the guys over the last 20 years that we drafted and developed that have turned out to be very good?  They literally don't exist.

 

So, going the free agent route isn't an answer if we can't do either of the other two things.  ANY TEAM can do those two things right if they get the right people.

[ewen21]

 

You didn't answer the question. And, both of those guys were signed to very long term deals, with the knowledge it wouldn't work in year one. I don't understand how anyone is judging those deals in one year.

 

Now that the Yankees signed Cole, would you have gotten in a bidding war with them and gone north of 350?  That is about what it would have taken.  The deal the Yankees made is INSANE and in my estimation unsound even by their standard.  Giving a pitcher 9 years is ridiculous.

 

I don't care if Jeff Bezos owns this team.  I don't know if it would have made a difference.  Cole had reached the pinnacle and he wants the most money plus the best chance to win.  This is something that you can't seem to acknowledge.  We don't offer a good chance to get to a world series no matter how hard you or anyone wants to argue this.  Until we actually win some games in the post season we aren't going to land players like this   The Yankees have that advantage on top of the money.  We not only have financial constraints, but we also have this legacy of post season futility that is very off-putting.

 

If we want to be taken seriously by these kinds of players we need to actually make trades and raise starting pitching that sticks.  As it is now, we hold no cards in this area.  if I cannot make you understand this then whatever.  It was not easy for me to finally admit this, but it is far more realistic to come to these terms than to continue to complain year after year about overpaying ridiculous amounts of my for guys who are looking for 6, 7, 8 or 10 years of guaranteed money.  THat is a fools errand for us.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

 

Well, you now officially have the new high bid on Cole at 8/302! Congrats, you are the bravest among us!

and still came up short!

[sweetmusicviola16]

 

This team needs to be willing to make trades for pitching and it simply doesn't have the insight or the stones to do so.  Houston traded to get Cole.  The Twins tend to fall in love with prospects and treat them like they are untouchable.  I thought we were insane to view Buxton in that way when we could have gotten Syndergaard.

 

Prospects and players in general are assets. Trading one is sometimes the best way to bring in another asset to satisfy a need.  The Twins ought to be looking to do that and they just don't have the stomach for it.  We also need learn how to develop pitchers.  We have been extremely poor in that area.  Where are the guys over the last 20 years that we drafted and developed that have turned out to be very good?  They literally don't exist.

 

So, going the free agent route isn't an answer if we can't do either of the other two things.  ANY TEAM can do those two things right if they get the right people.

You are very much right on. We could have had Cole 2 years ago, but they wouldn't give up a return headlined by Gordon. Syndegaard should have been acquired for whoever it took. In the meantime we continue to watch prospects crash and burn. Gordon has went no where. Javier is now Rule 5 eligible and Gonsalves is now a Met. We seem to be obsessed here in Twins country of keeping a Top 5 Farm system instead of using some of them to get the needed piece.

 

At this point I could care less if we get Bumgarner or Ryu. Neither are true difference makers anyway, so why pay 40% more than they should? Rendon is the only difference maker FA left and he will be a LAD or resign with the Nat's is my guess.

 

Look for Michael Boyd to be our big off season get. Or maybe Rickey Nolasco, aka Julio Tehran.

[prouster]

You are very much right on. We could have had Cole 2 years ago, but they wouldn't give up a return headlined by Gordon. Syndegaard should have been acquired for whoever it took. In the meantime we continue to watch prospects crash and burn. Gordon has went no where. Javier is now Rule 5 eligible and Gonsalves is now a Met. We seem to be obsessed here in Twins country of keeping a Top 5 Farm system instead of using some of them to get the needed piece.

 

At this point I could care less if we get Bumgarner or Ryu. Neither are true difference makers anyway, so why pay 40% more than they should? Rendon is the only difference maker FA left and he will be a LAD or resign with the Nat's is my guess.

 

Look for Michael Boyd to be our big off season get. Or maybe Rickey Nolasco, aka Julio Tehran.

You should probably get players’ names right if you’re going to complain about them.

 

In general, your argument is an example of heaving the goal posts downfield. They need “impact pitching,” but suddenly Bumgarner and Ryu don’t count because they aren’t Gerrit Cole. And if they traded for Cole two years ago, they would have just lost him to New York. Same old stuff, right? So no matter what the FO does, you still get to critique their decision. Nicely done.

 

Really, Berrios is the lynchpin in all of this. He’s 25 and has already put up multiple 4.0 RA-9 WAR seasons. If he stays healthy and consistent all year, he can be a legit top of the rotation pitcher.

[Taildragger8791]

Well that pretty much assures the Twins' reward for fighting their way to the top of a mediocre division will be running into the buzzsaw that is the Yankees for another 5 years. New decade, same as the last decade.

[SwainZag]

 

You are very much right on. We could have had Cole 2 years ago, but they wouldn't give up a return headlined by Gordon. Syndegaard should have been acquired for whoever it took. In the meantime we continue to watch prospects crash and burn. Gordon has went no where. Javier is now Rule 5 eligible and Gonsalves is now a Met. We seem to be obsessed here in Twins country of keeping a Top 5 Farm system instead of using some of them to get the needed piece.

 

At this point I could care less if we get Bumgarner or Ryu. Neither are true difference makers anyway, so why pay 40% more than they should? Rendon is the only difference maker FA left and he will be a LAD or resign with the Nat's is my guess.

 

Look for Michael Boyd to be our big off season get. Or maybe Rickey Nolasco, aka Julio Tehran.

 

Nick Gordon is 24, Javier is 20.  You know what other prospects the Twins didn't trade?  Max Kepler, Jorge Polanco and Mitch Garver who are all now All Star caliber players.  The trade offer from the Mets was reportedly Buxton AND Lewis, which is an extreme overpay.

 

The only free agent that has signed so far that the Twins probably had their eyes on is Wheeler, whom now we know wanted to be on the East Coast.

 

How are Ryu and Bumgarner not difference makers?  There is a lot of talent left in free agency.  Don't get blinded by the only thing available are the top names. 

[Vanimal46]

 

Nick Gordon is 20, Javier is 20.  You know what other prospects the Twins didn't trade?  Max Kepler, Jorge Polanco and Mitch Garver who are all now All Star caliber players.  The trade offer from the Mets was reportedly Buxton AND Lewis, which is an extreme overpay.

 

The only free agent that has signed so far that the Twins probably had their eyes on is Wheeler, whom now we know wanted to be on the East Coast.

 

How are Ryu and Bumgarner not difference makers?  There is a lot of talent left in free agency.  Don't get blinded by the only thing available are the top names. 

 

Not sure about you, but when I hear the words "impact pitching" from the CBO and GM, I don't think to look halfway down the list of free agents to find it. I typically start at the top of the list. What about you?

[MMMordabito]

Has anyone else had the naughty thought of hoping Gerrit Cole's career mirrors that of Jacoby Ellsbury from here on out?

 

I am glad he took $324 million of Steinbrenner cash, but I hope his future success is realized off the field.

 

I know I'm a horrible person.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

You should probably get players’ names right if you’re going to complain about them.

In general, your argument is an example of heaving the goal posts downfield. They need “impact pitching,” but suddenly Bumgarner and Ryu don’t count because they aren’t Gerrit Cole. And if they traded for Cole two years ago, they would have just lost him to New York. Same old stuff, right? So no matter what the FO does, you still get to critique their decision. Nicely done.

Really, Berrios is the lynchpin in all of this. He’s 25 and has already put up multiple 4.0 RA-9 WAR seasons. If he stays healthy and consistent all year, he can be a legit top of the rotation pitcher.

 

No, not same old stuff. 101 wins or more. Heading into a matchup with the Yankees. Cole throws a 3 hit shutout backed up by a 1-2-3 Rogers 9th. Twins up 1-0 and now they turn to Jose Berrios for their next start. That is NOT the same old thing.

 

Twins come home either 1-1 or 2-0 and they turn to Ordorizi who gives them a solid 5 with 2 runs. Oh shoot, we lose that game. Thats fine, time to turn to Gerrit Cole again.

[Don Walcott]

 

Has anyone else had the naughty thought of hoping Gerrit Cole's career mirrors that of Jacoby Ellsbury from here on out?

 

I am glad he took $324 million of Steinbrenner cash, but I hope his future success is realized off the field.

 

I know I'm a horrible person.

You're not a horrible person. Just an honest one.

[SwainZag]

 

Not sure about you, but when I hear the words "impact pitching" from the CBO and GM, I don't think to look halfway down the list of free agents to find it. I typically start at the top of the list. What about you?

 

Did anyone realistically think that the Twins had a shot at signing Stras or Cole?  Impact pitching means more than the top 2 names on the market....and the offseason isn't even close to being over.

[Vanimal46]

Did anyone realistically think that the Twins had a shot at signing Stras or Cole? Impact pitching means more than the top 2 names on the market....and the offseason isn't even close to being over.

Not really. But there’s only 2 left in the tier of pitching they targeted, and one has already said he has no interest in playing for Minnesota.

 

Until “impact pitching” is found, I’d appreciate not constantly moving the goalposts. The goal of this offseason was stated very clearly by the CBO and GM.

[SwainZag]

 

Not really. But there’s only 2 left in the tier of pitching they targeted, and one has already said he has no interest in playing for Minnesota.

Until “impact pitching” is found, I’d appreciate not constantly moving the goalposts. The goal of this offseason was stated very clearly by the CBO and GM.

 

I am not moving the goalposts.  The FO said they would target impact pitching this offseason.  It's December...we have nearly 4 months left of offseason.  

[Battle ur tail off]

Right, it is only December. That said, you have Madbum who is likely out of it for us with other teams jumping in. Ryu, who is an injury risk and the trade route. 

 

Who out there in a trade profiles as better than those 2? Also, teams will ask for our top prospects for controllable pitching that would be considered "impact". Are the Twins willing to move them? We haven't seen it in the past. In fact, this last trade deadline was a very good example of how I expect this FO to move forward on the trade front. 

[prouster]

 

No, not same old stuff. 101 wins or more. Heading into a matchup with the Yankees. Cole throws a 3 hit shutout backed up by a 1-2-3 Rogers 9th. Twins up 1-0 and now they turn to Jose Berrios for their next start. That is NOT the same old thing.

 

Twins come home either 1-1 or 2-0 and they turn to Ordorizi who gives them a solid 5 with 2 runs. Oh shoot, we lose that game. Thats fine, time to turn to Gerrit Cole again.

 

I meant "same old stuff" as in, most Twins fans would be absolutely losing it if they had traded for Cole two years ago only to watch him sign with the Yankees for mondo bucks. It would be Knoblauch and (sort of) Santana all over again.

 

I think the size of the contract is obscuring the possibility that while Cole is undoubtedly an excellent pitcher, he might not have been the best starter on his own team last year. He could very well go on to pitch at an elite level deep into his 30s like Scherzer and Verlander, but he could just as well fall apart like Price, Lincecum, Santana, Jason Schmidt, Mike Hampton, and others. Remember that Johan lost in 2006 because the bats went ice cold and half the team forgot how to play defense.

 

If your position was Cole, Strasburg, or bust, then you and I both knew you'd end up disappointed.

[nicksaviking]

 

Right, it is only December. That said, you have Madbum who is likely out of it for us with other teams jumping in. Ryu, who is an injury risk and the trade route. 

 

Who out there in a trade profiles as better than those 2? 

 

I'd argue that Rich Hill has been better than both of those two when he's healthy. Obviously being healthy is the key, but if I had Bumgarner, Ryu or Hill to choose from to go against the Yankees or Astros for Game 1, I'd take Hill and his significantly superior ability to miss bats and avoid hits.

 

But I'm well aware that if Rich Hill is the biggest named pitcher this team signs that this site will riot.

[nicksaviking]

I did see that Cole chose the Yankees over the Dodgers because he thought the Yankees provided the best chance to with the WS. Ouch. 

 

I guess I can see it, but aside from historical choke jobs, I'd have thought those teams were fairly close to a coin flip. Though historical choke jobs may have been a pretty big factor in the evaluation I suppose.

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

Has anyone else had the naughty thought of hoping Gerrit Cole's career mirrors that of Jacoby Ellsbury from here on out?

 

I am glad he took $324 million of Steinbrenner cash, but I hope his future success is realized off the field.

 

I know I'm a horrible person.

Not at all. I hope he's healthy and happy.

 

Good for him to get this money.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I did see that Cole chose the Yankees over the Dodgers because he thought the Yankees provided the best chance to with the WS. Ouch. 

 

I guess I can see it, but aside from historical choke jobs, I'd have thought those teams were fairly close to a coin flip. Though historical choke jobs may have been a pretty big factor in the evaluation I suppose.

The Dodgers are obviously a very good team, but I do get a "born to runner-up" vibe from them...

[nicksaviking]

 

The Dodgers are obviously a very good team, but I do get a "born to runner-up" vibe from them...

 

Even that title has been difficult for them to achieve lately.

[drivlikejehu]

If the Dodgers couldn't land Cole, who is from Southern California, it is just straight-up insane to fault the Twins for not getting him.

 

If that's the standard folks are expecting, find another team to root for. The Twins will *never, ever* be that team. It's just not going to happen. No amount of fan message board complaints will result in the Pohlads handing $350 million+ to a 29-year old pitcher. The appearance of an actual deity at a Pohlad family dinner, telling them the fate of their souls depended on signing Cole, would have made zero difference.

 

The name doesn't even matter . . . Cole, Rendon, whoever it is, whatever year it is, it will never, ever happen and there's really no point in pretending it's a legitimate topic of conversation. Talking about handing out record-breaking contracts is the same as speculating about what the Twins would do to meet a $50 million payroll. It's a meaningless subject.

[howeda7]

 

You should probably get players’ names right if you’re going to complain about them.

In general, your argument is an example of heaving the goal posts downfield. They need “impact pitching,” but suddenly Bumgarner and Ryu don’t count because they aren’t Gerrit Cole. And if they traded for Cole two years ago, they would have just lost him to New York. Same old stuff, right? So no matter what the FO does, you still get to critique their decision. Nicely done.

Really, Berrios is the lynchpin in all of this. He’s 25 and has already put up multiple 4.0 RA-9 WAR seasons. If he stays healthy and consistent all year, he can be a legit top of the rotation pitcher.

Berrios is a key. To realistically win a WS, he has to become an ace. But if he does, we still need someone start game 2 at Yankee Stadium. I don't think anyone here genuinely expected them to get Cole or Strasburg. But to completely whiff on the entire next tier is unacceptable.