Let's talk about Castro....

[mikelink45]

 

Add to that knowing how to help out pitchers whose mechanics may be out of whack. It's been said that a good catcher is like a manager on the field. I'll expand that to say that a very good catcher is like a pitching coach on the field. No data for that either.

 

Edited to add: Dave Duncan is a former catcher who worked for many years as a pitching coach.

For a long time catchers were the most popular position players to be chosen for manager. Sabr says 21.6 % of managers have been catchers.  http://research.sabr.org/journals/playing-background-of-major-league-managers  of course if you scroll down you will find they have the worst winning pct. of all positions turned manager. "Finally, this should put to rest the fallacy that catchers and shortstops - the field generals of the team - make the best managers. Of all the player positions they had the worst overall winning percentages." 

 

 

[mikelink45]

 

Gimenez - 34 years old

Batting - 207 PA .211/.341/.357  

Fielding - 440.2 Inn, 9 PB, 12/28 CS  30%

Arbitration Eligible

 

Castro - 30 years old

Batting - 379 PA, .233/.325/.378

Fielding - 853.1 Inn, 5 PB, 14/40 CS 26%

Signed thru 2019, $8M per year.

 

Just curious, why don't you like Castro but do like Gimenez?  Besides a few points in OBP and a couple of runners caught stealing, Castro is the better player, not to mention he's locked up.

I am sorry - I do not like Gimenez, I meant to say that the management seems to like him a lot.  I would have had Garver up early in the season. 

[spinowner]

One thing about passed balls that should be mentioned: a passed ball is called when the scorer feels a pitch should have been caught and many people view it as the catcher's fault. However, many times a passed ball results from the pitcher missing the sign and throwing the wrong pitch.

[gil4]

 

I'm not sure how much this number actually means, but for what its worth, Castros "Catcher ERA" is almost a run and a half lower than Gimenez's.  

It sounds like another item to add to the list of reasons to replace Gimenez.

[DocBauer]

You can measure, or attempt to measure, a lot of defensive statistics for a catcher. I get that. But no matter what, some will always be skewed. For instance, caught stealing; what if the staff isn't very good at holding on runners or several have slow motions?

 

I don't think Castro is special. But watching him through the season, using the eye test of watching him, I think he's better than Suzuki. I think we absolutely upgraded. For all his flaws, is still say Giminez is a better backup than we've had recently as well.

 

The problem with trying to "measure" a catcher is all the intangibles involved. Things like game calling, leadership, making the pitcher comfortable or calming them down, are impossible to measure.

 

He's experienced, solid, not expensive, and not awful at the plate. All that being said, I think it's absolutely time next season for Garver to receive a real opportunity to play.

[old nurse]

 

 

to be clear I was heavily against all of those ideas except for calling up Garver.

If the Twins ownership wasn't so cheap, maybe they could afford an elite baseball mind like myself in the FO

You complain that Castro has passed balls.  So far this season he has 5 21 catchers have more passed balls. the 13/14 others that have 5 only one has played more games.  Say it is a problem and people believe regardless of the statistics.  That is an elite talent, but not one to be admired.

[Platoon]

Passed balls are as someone said are often the result of a crossed sign. My problem with Giminez, and somewhat with Castro is blocking pitches. There were at least two in the last half of the game last night that Giminez didn't "sit on". He just tried to short hop them, with men on base. Really bad mechanics. And in that stretch he cost Pressley? a strike out when he fumbled the low FB. You have to do an awful lot of hitting to make up for an evening like that.

[yarnivek1972]

Kurt Suzuki hit his 17th HR tonight.

 

He has a 2.0 fWAR. Castro has a 1.3...

[DaveW]

You complain that Castro has passed balls. So far this season he has 5 21 catchers have more passed balls. the 13/14 others that have 5 only one has played more games. Say it is a problem and people believe regardless of the statistics. That is an elite talent, but not one to be admired.

The game I was at he had 3, not sure if they were "counted" as passed balls, but he definitely should have had all 3.

 

Giving him a 3 year contract was so dumb. Unless they realize he is a backup.

[DaveW]

Kurt Suzuki hit his 17th HR tonight.

 

He has a 2.0 fWAR. Castro has a 1.3...

Could have also had him back at the deadline for next to nothing!! Even if you think castro is the bees knees you have to know Suzuki would have been a great late inning Ph for him and platoon guy at worst!

[Danchat]

 

Kurt Suzuki hit his 17th HR tonight.

He has a 2.0 fWAR. Castro has a 1.3...

Considering how much worse Suzuki is defensively than Castro, a 0.7 fWAR difference isn't going to stop me from choosing Castro.

[USAFChief]

I'm glad Suzuki isn't behind the plate.

[Linus]

His strongest attribute is framing which nobody can accurately quantify and he's not very good at anything else. Color me skeptical.

[PseudoSABR]

Let's not talk about Castro, because he's not the problem, and in fact, he's part of the solution to the problem, which is pitching.  

 

The Twins obviously can live with a .700 OPS catcher who provides value to the pitching the staff.   

 

(An aside: evidently ESPN has their own WAR metric, because they have Castro at 2.3 good for 11th in all baseball). 

[old nurse]

 

The game I was at he had 3, not sure if they were "counted" as passed balls, but he definitely should have had all 3.

Giving him a 3 year contract was so dumb. Unless they realize he is a backup.

Fan with bias versus official scorer grading an out of town team. Nik Turley had one wild pitch, nobody else has a wild pitch while Castro was playing, nobody had passed ball. There is plenty of room there to wonder what you were watching.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I'm glad Castro has his cheerleaders, but in an important game he disappears.

 

I'd like to hear more about the data or leadership qualities he possesses. Not saying he doesn't have those qualities, but really, give us some information to think about instead of the cheerleading, if he is going to be our catcher the next two years.

[Mike Sixel]

I'm glad Castro has his cheerleaders, but in an important game he disappears.

I'd like to hear more about the data or leadership qualities he possesses. Not saying he doesn't have those qualities, but really, give us some information to think about instead of the cheerleading, if he is going to be our catcher the next two years.

He was league median. Would you rather see JRM?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

He was league median. Would you rather see JRM?

He is ordinary, but gets a lot of praise. Not just here on TD. Just wondering why.

 

Yes, getting good pitchers is more important than replacing Castro.

[Shane Wahl]

Best WAR in four years for him. People need to calm down given the nonsense catching that there has been around here.

[yarnivek1972]

Best WAR in four years for him. People need to calm down given the nonsense catching that there has been around here.

A lot of that is simply playing more. If he had not missed that week with the concussion, he probably would have established a new high in innings caught. He isn’t bad, but he is way overpaid. Doesn’t seem to me that a barely better than league average catcher should make double league average salary.

 

What a team needs, is a guy that can rake to be his back up and this team did not have that. Maybe that’s Garver. I suspect we find out.

[Brandon27]

I saw someone wrote about getting power RH if I was the FO of Twins I would put a package together  and go talk to the Phillies about Tommy Joseph or Rhys Hoskins to play everyday DH until interleague and be Joe's replacement at first. I think Castro did a good job behind the plate this year and his hitting needs work. I think  we need to rework our rotation and little Bullpen help. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

A lot of that is simply playing more. If he had not missed that week with the concussion, he probably would have established a new high in innings caught. He isn’t bad, but he is way overpaid. Doesn’t seem to me that a barely better than league average catcher should make double league average salary.

What a team needs, is a guy that can rake to be his back up and this team did not have that. Maybe that’s Garver. I suspect we find out.

 

way over paid? Have you seen MLB salaries?

[yarnivek1972]

way over paid? Have you seen MLB salaries?

Yes, I have. Average MLB salary is $4 mil. He’s making over $8 mil. Is that not double? As I said, it seems to me that a guy who is literally a roughly league average all around catcher (1.6 fWAR) should be making closer to average salary. He’s making $2 to $3 mil per year more than he should be IMO. Is it “my money”? No. So, why does it matter? Because it’s $2 to $3 mil the Twins won’t spend to upgrade pitching.

 

Similarly, some advocate eating Hughes’ contract. That’s fine. But it is still an expense that has to be paid. Eating that contract won’t make that $13 mil available to help improve the team. When we, as fans, are contemplating roster decisions, it needs to be remembered. The 2018 payroll $ is probably already set. My personal speculation is a max of $125 mil based on 2016 revenue being $250 mil. I expect that 2017 won’t be much different. Attendance was only up about 100,000 people for the entire season.

[Loosey]

Castro was a solid catcher behind the plate.  I don't know how to quantify the framing metric, but I assume there is more to it than I can see watching on TV.  He does leave a lot to be desired as a hitter though.  I am fine with him for now, I think developing or acquiring a top notch catcher in the next two years should be one of the Twins priorities though.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Yes, I have. Average MLB salary is $4 mil. He’s making over $8 mil. Is that not double? As I said, it seems to me that a guy who is literally a roughly league average all around catcher (1.6 fWAR) should be making closer to average salary. He’s making $2 to $3 mil per year more than he should be IMO. Is it “my money”? No. So, why does it matter? Because it’s $2 to $3 mil the Twins won’t spend to upgrade pitching.

Similarly, some advocate eating Hughes’ contract. That’s fine. But it is still an expense that has to be paid. Eating that contract won’t make that $13 mil available to help improve the team. When we, as fans, are contemplating roster decisions, it needs to be remembered. The 2018 payroll $ is probably already set. My personal speculation is a max of $125 mil based on 2016 revenue being $250 mil. I expect that 2017 won’t be much different. Attendance was only up about 100,000 people for the entire season.

 

You realize "average" includes players that are playing in year 1, and make 1/10 that, right? Again, what better alternative was there than Castro? 

 

Eating that contract opens a roster space, you can fill for 400K. That's the point, not that the money is freed up. I literally have no idea what that paragraph means.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Yes, I have. Average MLB salary is $4 mil. He’s making over $8 mil. Is that not double? As I said, it seems to me that a guy who is literally a roughly league average all around catcher (1.6 fWAR) should be making closer to average salary. He’s making $2 to $3 mil per year more than he should be IMO. Is it “my money”? No. So, why does it matter? Because it’s $2 to $3 mil the Twins won’t spend to upgrade pitching.

 

Similarly, some advocate eating Hughes’ contract. That’s fine. But it is still an expense that has to be paid. Eating that contract won’t make that $13 mil available to help improve the team. When we, as fans, are contemplating roster decisions, it needs to be remembered. The 2018 payroll $ is probably already set. My personal speculation is a max of $125 mil based on 2016 revenue being $250 mil. I expect that 2017 won’t be much different. Attendance was only up about 100,000 people for the entire season.

Ramos got 2 years, 6 mil per season as a flier just in case he's healthy enough to play at all in 2017, and probably not until 2018 based on the medical reports that were out at the time.

 

http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/free-agents/2017/catcher/

 

[Guest]

Ramos had a worse offensive and defensive year than Giminez. Just because he has a good story and we don't see him every day doesn't mean that he is good or unaffected by his injury last year. For next year, it may be more likely that his offense recovers better than his defense, but neither is a given. It doesn't make sense to compare him to Castro, who was much better this year and is more of a sure thing.

 

Further, Castro earned his money this season. Calling him a "disaster" in the OP is, to put it nicely, negative hyperbole.

 

That said, I was not a fan of signing Castro and am on record as preferring that they had resigned Suzuki, especially for the money difference. A year later, that preference looks like it would have been a better choice.

[Halsey Hall]

I'm certainly not a fan of Castro's.  And he is way overpaid.  Ship him out and get someone else.

[Mike Sixel]

well, here is the FA list.......good luck doing better for less money (or at all)....

 

Catchers

Alex Avila (31)
Welington Castillo (31) — $7MM player option
Hank Conger (30)
A.J. Ellis (37)
Tyler Flowers (32) — $4MM club option with a $300K buyout
Nick Hundley (34)
Chris Iannetta (35)
Jose Lobaton (33)
Jonathan Lucroy (32)
Miguel Montero (34)
Rene Rivera (34)
Carlos Ruiz (39)
Geovany Soto (35)
Chris Stewart (36) — $1.5MM club option with a $250K buyout
Josh Thole (31)
Matt Wieters (32) — $11MM player option
Bobby Wilson (35)