Kyle Gibson: Haven't We Seen Enough?

[Vanimal46]

 

Gibson just doesn't have MLB-level command. It's a fairly straightforward problem and there's really no reason to think it's fixable at this point in his career.

 

Bingo. I don't really care how modest his contract rate will be this off-season. The Twins need to move on. 

[bird]

The odd thing about how difficult it's been to find pitching help from within the system is that the Rochester team leads a 14 team league in team ERA and WHIP. WIthout examining it closely, I'd guess a lot of that number comes from the production of relievers who have come up and been at best spotty for the big club: Boshers, Busenitz, Hildenberger, Pressly, Tonkin, and others. But still, you'd think success of that magnitude in AAA would translate better.

[beckmt]

Gibson is now you basic 5th starter and he will have good and bad starts.  He also is rapidlly become a nontender candidate so will not be a Twins issue after this year.  This could all change after some more good starts, but he is running out of chances.  Colon was promised something to get him to sign here, so baring a couple of horrible starts in Rochester, he will get at least 2 - 3 starts for the Twins.  One of the current Twins starters will be elsewhere at that time.

[laloesch]

 

The AAA starting options stink much worse than chopped liver. At least chopped liver can be used as bait to bring in bigger & better fish.

 

Making it to AAA is quite an accomplishment but it doesn't mean they're destined to be an MLB player. Sports are (ideally) a meritocracy.

 

Really?  Slegers is decent.  Guy is huge too at 6-10.  9-4, 3.75 era through 16 starts.  His k/9 is nothing special at 6.8 but it's heading the right direction from previous levels.  Make no mistake he's probably destined to be a RP, but he does throw three pitches (FB, Slider, Changeup) with consistency, something Alex Meyer has never been able to master.  

[Taildragger8791]

 

Really?  Slegers is decent.  Guy is huge too at 6-10.  9-4, 3.75 era through 16 starts.  His k/9 is nothing special at 6.8 but it's heading the right direction from previous levels.  Make no mistake he's probably destined to be a RP, but he does throw three pitches (FB, Slider, Changeup) with consistency, something Alex Meyer has never been able to master.  

 

Decent, but as you said he isn't likely an MLB starter. His numbers are okay for AAA but don't project to success at the next level right now. The guys in AA have more talent and the Twins chose to bet on talent over seniority. Sounds reasonable to me.

[nicksaviking]

 

According to Paul Molitor in this article,

 

Friday @ Houston: J.O. Berrios

Saturday @Houston: Ervin Santana
Sunday @ Houston: Kyle Gibson
Monday home vs. Yankees: Adalberto Mejia
Tuesday home vs. Yankees: ???

 

Tuesday could be Colon, Hughes, Santiago, Gee, Jorge.  I think Gibson's start Sunday could be a make-or-break, because I figure Santiago will be in the rotation upon return, and they'll give at least a few starts to Colon.  If they want to buy an extra start or two for Gibson, they could send Santiago for a rehab start or two at Rochester.

 

I can't imagine Colon came here instead of going back to the Mets unless the Twins promised him a rotation spot. I'd guess he'll be in the rotation after the AS break but whether it's Santiago's or Gibson's spot will be determined by Santiago's health.  

 

I'm surprised both Colon and Gee don't take both of their spots though. Perhaps Santiago's attitude after his last shelling is indicative of his normal behavior and the team wants to hold off as long as possible putting him in the pen because the team knows he'll be disruptive if demoted?

 

Also, giving Gibson, not Colon the honor of getting shelled by Houston might just be intentionally setting the table for a "straw that broke the camel's back" kind of scenario. Otherwise, wouldn't Mejia really be the team's 3rd starter at this point?

[laloesch]

 

I can't imagine Colon came here instead of going back to the Mets unless the Twins promised him a rotation spot. I'd guess he'll be in the rotation after the AS break but whether it's Santiago's or Gibson's spot will be determined by Santiago's health.  

 

I'm surprised both Colon and Gee don't take both of their spots though. Perhaps Santiago's attitude after his last shelling is indicative of his normal behavior and the team wants to hold off as long as possible putting him in the pen because the team knows he'll be disruptive if demoted?

 

Also, giving Gibson, not Colon the honor of getting shelled by Houston might just be intentionally setting the table for a "straw that broke the camel's back" kind of scenario. Otherwise, wouldn't Mejia really be the team's 3rd starter at this point?

 

The thought of Colon starting for the Twins through the end of the season just makes me cringe.

[kab21]

I would not remove Gibson from the rotation until there is someone holding down the #5 spot. The Twins don't need 2 revolving doors. And if you don't look at advanced stats (they are terrible) Gibson was adequate in June after his demotion.

 

Make no mistake about it though, he has been awful. I have no expectations that anyone else is better though and those other options are going to get plenty of chances. This is how bad the Twins rotation depth is. This is also why I am in favor of trading a top 20-ish prospect for a backend starter. Or for trading for Gray.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Bingo. I don't really care how modest his contract rate will be this off-season. The Twins need to move on. 

Yeah.  Gibson will probably be a decent risk for someone at $4 mil or whatever next season, but he would seem to be a far worse bet for the Twins at that figure (and perhaps more importantly, a roster spot all winter).  Kinda like when Liriano signed with Pittsburgh -- solid gamble for them, but it probably would have been a stupid gamble for the Twins, since nothing had changed from when he struggled mightily here.

[SweetOne69]

 

Santiago will be back from DL before a 5th starter is needed.

Berrios
Erv
Mejia
Colon
Santiago

I get that Santiago isn't a great option either, but he's still better than Gibson, IMO.

 

Correction:  Santiago will be eligible to come back, whether he is ready to is another matter.

[Doomtints]

This isn't the first time Molitor neglected to put the best defense behind Gibson with the same result.

 

Yes, Gibson sucks and needs to be replaced. Knowing this, Molitor should have the best defense behind him to have a chance to win the game. 

 

It's difficult to not conclude one of these things:

 

- Molitor thinks Gibson is better than he is, and doesn't think he needs the best defense behind Gibson if the Twins want a chance to win the game.

- Molitor wants Gibson to fail (doubt it).

- Molitor wants himself to fail (doubt it).

- Molitor doesn't understand the true value of defense (also seems doubtful, but with the mistakes Molitor made over the years around pitching, it's hard to know for sure).

 

I put this last loss on Molitor. If you know a pitcher is bad, you put the best defense you can behind him. Period.

[spanman2]

 

Dude hits 95 with a sinking 4 seamer.  That is hard to find. Slider and change can both be swing and miss pitches when the command is there (sporatic).  I'd rather see him scrap a pitch and move to the pen before giving up on the guy.  To me, he's a 5th starter.  He has ok ones, and he has rough ones.  That's what 5th starters do.

He has the talent for certain.  Makes you wonder if it is between the ears where he is lacking.  His confidence could be shot.  Would be great if he could be counted on a consistent basis but that has not been the case.

[djvang]

I've certainly seen enough of him. Usually he waits until the 4th inning to implode. He's useless.

[mikelink45]

Lets move Santiago first - get Gonsalves up, get Romero up, if they need fine tuning then there should be nothing better than a major league coach.  Then get Gibson out with some more pitching auditions, but NO COLON.  Has everyone been looking at the wrong calendar - this is 2017 not 2007.  Colon is old, fat and done.  He has no upside so don't bother and the same with all the other dumpster diving souvenirs.  Let's investigate the minors and see if we have any talent because their struggles will be no worse than any of the other options unless we sign Sonny Grey.  But please I do not want to see an oldtimers game every fifth day.

[LimestoneBaggy]

 

I've certainly seen enough of him. Usually he waits until the 4th inning to implode. He's useless.

 

I want to see him as a reliever before I consider him useless. I see potential in the pen.

[nicksaviking]

 

The thought of Colon starting for the Twins through the end of the season just makes me cringe.

 

Yeah, I'm not really interested unless the plan is to let him regain some value and flip him for a (very minimal) return.

 

But his spot is inevitable I'd think, he's not signing here if it wasn't.

[OldTimeTwinkie]

Gibson is still a very valuable asset for our bullpen. Cleveland has a pitcher that is much the same in Zach McAllister who they converted to the bullpen with success. Our GM should know this.

[nicksaviking]

 

This isn't the first time Molitor neglected to put the best defense behind Gibson with the same result.

 

Yes, Gibson sucks and needs to be replaced. Knowing this, Molitor should have the best defense behind him to have a chance to win the game. 

 

It's difficult to not conclude one of these things:

 

 

I'd guess it's just your typical atypical Sunday lineup. Sunday off-days to regulars is pretty common.

 

Molitor is a lame duck manager too, he's managing for his next contract. I think he makes plenty of poor decisions but I'd think it unlikely he's intentionally failing to spite a pitcher.

[laloesch]

 

Yeah, I'm not really interested unless the plan is to let him regain some value and flip him for a (very minimal) return.

 

But his spot is inevitable I'd think, he's not signing here if it wasn't.

 

Yeah.  Derek Falvey sure look excited when discussing the signing with the media.  He was smiles ear to ear.  My impression is that he seems to think he's one tweak away with his delivery from being a solid effective starter again and even wants to pitch beyond this season, hooray!  Honestly i think the FO is going to roll him out there the rest of the season. Yikes!

[jimmer]

One has to wonder, how many pitchers perfromances we can accept because they are what one expects from 5th starters?

[Otto von Ballpark]

[Vanimal46]

What would draw more TV ratings? 

Watching Bartolo pitch against the Yankees? 

 

OR 

Watching Bartolo square off in a pre-game spread eating contest vs. the beat writers (Reusse, LEN3, Phil Miller)? 

 

 

[Linus]

This isn't the first time Molitor neglected to put the best defense behind Gibson with the same result.

 

Yes, Gibson sucks and needs to be replaced. Knowing this, Molitor should have the best defense behind him to have a chance to win the game.

 

It's difficult to not conclude one of these things:

 

- Molitor thinks Gibson is better than he is, and doesn't think he needs the best defense behind Gibson if the Twins want a chance to win the game.

- Molitor wants Gibson to fail (doubt it).

- Molitor wants himself to fail (doubt it).

- Molitor doesn't understand the true value of defense (also seems doubtful, but with the mistakes Molitor made over the years around pitching, it's hard to know for sure).

 

I put this last loss on Molitor. If you know a pitcher is bad, you put the best defense you can behind him. Period.

Yep. He should have positioned Granite in the home run porch when Jones was up.

[big dog]

It isn't bad defense that makes Gibson throw hanging curves over the middle of the plate.  Bad defense turns upper-deck home runs from 2-run shots to 3-run shots, but Gibson is getting shelled all on his own merits.

 

He's also being taken out early all the time, where again it isn't facing an extra batter or two that makes the difference.

 

I think defense matters, of course, but I think the Gibson Effect outweighs everything else in this case.

[Mike Sixel]

Side comment: it's unclear to me what accomplishments Neil Allen has had, but one thing I note is that Gibson had a pretty good change and sinker in 2015 and that both are now scoring much worse. However, Gibson seems healthy. Allen had a reputation as a change expert. If Allen can't help Gibson, or at least keep him even with his past averageness, what good is Allen?

 

Side-side comment: Allen also had a reputation as the minor league pitcher guru for the Rays, but they don't seem to be missing him. Maybe his reputation was as undeserved as that Gonzaga coach hired for Gophers basketball several years ago. Gonzaga just got better after he left while the Gophers became terrible.

Very legit questions

[yarnivek1972]

 

This isn't the first time Molitor neglected to put the best defense behind Gibson with the same result.

 

Yes, Gibson sucks and needs to be replaced. Knowing this, Molitor should have the best defense behind him to have a chance to win the game. 

 

It's difficult to not conclude one of these things:

 

- Molitor thinks Gibson is better than he is, and doesn't think he needs the best defense behind Gibson if the Twins want a chance to win the game.

- Molitor wants Gibson to fail (doubt it).

- Molitor wants himself to fail (doubt it).

- Molitor doesn't understand the true value of defense (also seems doubtful, but with the mistakes Molitor made over the years around pitching, it's hard to know for sure).

 

I put this last loss on Molitor. If you know a pitcher is bad, you put the best defense you can behind him. Period.

 

 

That's a curious take to say that Gibson lost because Molitor didn't put the best defense behind him.  The only regular that didn't start was Buxton.  I'm pretty sure Granite made one of the top plays in all of MLB yesterday behind Gibson.  So what plays, in your opinion, weren't made that cost the Twins the game?  I don't remember any.

[USAFChief]

 

I'd guess it's just your typical atypical Sunday lineup. Sunday off-days to regulars is pretty common.

 

Molitor is a lame duck manager too, he's managing for his next contract. I think he makes plenty of poor decisions but I'd think it unlikely he's intentionally failing to spite a pitcher.

Not to make too much of this, and in the case of yesterday's game, defense had little to do with Gibson's trouble, but...

 

Sunday off-day to regulars, on the day before the AS break?

 

 

[h2oface]

 

That might be true, but he's going to get a shot once he's ready.
He's not going to go ride buses in AAA at his age unless he's been promised a shot in the rotation.

 

Plus, who wants to have to suffer the overflow in the seat next to him on the bus?

He won't be a fave to sit next to on the plane, either.

[yarnivek1972]

Not to make too much of this, and in the case of yesterday's game, defense had little to do with Gibson's trouble, but...

 

Sunday off-day to regulars, on the day before the AS break?

Just to repeat: there was one regular not in the starting lineup: Byron Buxton.

[ewen21]

 

sign him to a ridiculous and unnecessary contract extension? 

 

That was in the fairly early stages of Blackburn's career.  I am talking about what the Twins did with him in 2012.