Papelbon fights Harper

[GCTF]

Would it be fair to say Harper received a non-refundable boom daddy?

[TheLeviathan]

 

However, he hit a comebacker right to the pitcher in Milwaukee and jogged it out, and the group I was with only remembered that about Harper's hustle or lack thereof...

 

Exactly.  If you think there has ever been a player that hustled EVERY play - you're not living in reality.  People pick and choose what they want to see to meet their own preconceived notions.  I can assure you, for example, that Puckett didn't hustle every time.  It's also likely that Valencia hustled every now and then too.  The extremes just aren't realistic.

 

Harper didn't hustle this one out because it wasn't relevant to do so.  He saw how high he hit it and where he hit it.  There was no hustle double to be had there.  I don't think Harper has a hustle problem at all, this play just dictated that what he did was irrelevant.

[lukeduke1980]

I would pay many dollars to see Perk and Mauer get into it like these guys did

[Seth Stohs]

Harper and Papelbon both have bad reputations in the game, so the fact it was them magnifies this.

 

Of course players should run things out, but I thought Harper did enough on that one.

 

I have no problem with a player getting upset at another and being willing to say something. I have no problem with Harper standing up for himself. When Papelbon attacked Harper is when it went over the line.

 

And, of course, that it was in the dugout instead of the clubhouse also magnifies it. We have a few different angles of it. 

[twinsnorth49]

While it's debatable whether Harper should have shown a bit more hustle on that particular play, what isn't debatable is what a complete tool Papelbon is.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Really interesting article on the fight - http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/story/jonathan-papelbon-bryce-harper-fight-current-ex-players-support-pitcher-long-time-coming-092715

 

According to the FS writer, most players actually sided with Paps over Harper.  

 

You think he reached out to a ton of players, or ones he knew?

 

There is a great article on the washingtonpost about how Harper has matured (remember, he is all of 22 right now) the last 2 years.

 

Can anyone point to an episode in the last 2 years where he acted out of line, in terms of the BS integrity / unwritten rule crap?

[biggentleben]

 

You think he reached out to a ton of players, or ones he knew?

 

There is a great article on the washingtonpost about how Harper has matured (remember, he is all of 22 right now) the last 2 years.

 

Can anyone point to an episode in the last 2 years where he acted out of line, in terms of the BS integrity / unwritten rule crap?

 

Last season, yes, but that was also questioning his manager, and his manager has aptly shown this year that there is significant reason to question anything he says or does.

 

This year, he's been danged near a model citizen, as that article you reference points out.

[biggentleben]

Papelbon suspended the rest of the season.

 

3 games by MLB

4 games by Washington on top of that.

 

After the comments from Mike Rizzo today, it sounds like Papelbon will be a free agent over the winter.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Papelbon suspended the rest of the season.

 

3 games by MLB

4 games by Washington on top of that.

 

The comments from Mike Rizzo today sounds like Papelbon will be a free agent over the winter.

 

A culture of accountability in action. Not words, but action. good for them.

[gunnarthor]

 

A culture of accountability in action. Not words, but action. good for them.

You might be giving them a bit more credit then they are due.  The barn burned down, the horse is dead and they just now called the fire department?  

[Mike Sixel]

You might be giving them a bit more credit then they are due.  The barn burned down, the horse is dead and they just now called the fire department?

True.....I was only commenting on this, they have clear issues......but in this case, they are serious.

[Vanimal46]

Papelbon suspended the rest of the season.

 

3 games by MLB

4 games by Washington on top of that.

 

After the comments from Mike Rizzo today, it sounds like Papelbon will be a free agent over the winter.

And even though there are several instances of Papelbon being a tool, some team will be delighted to hand him the keys to the closer role on top of a new 3 year $30+ million deal.

[Mike Sixel]

And even though there are several instances of Papelbon being a tool, some team will be delighted to hand him the keys to the closer role on top of a new 3 year $30+ million deal.

Probably, sports are funny that way.....

[Boom Boom]

Professional athletes are so childish.

[2wins87]

 

I can separate the physical attack--for which I blame Papelbon--and what I believe is Harper's attitude that he is bigger than the game, for which I blame Harper.  

 

He's not bigger than the game.  I expect hustle from the players I pay to watch, and I'd be surprised if many players were on Harper's side in this issue.  

 

Side note:  I don't even know what "fake" hustle is.  I do, however, recognize a lack of hustle when I see it.   

 

I also sometimes sense the tendency of some fans to make excuses for certain players because "he's really good at baseball."  That's fine, but I don't share the same sentiments.

 

I haven't really really payed too much attention to the Nationals for the past few year, but reading the comments from Nationals fans about the incident, there does not seem to be any dissatisfaction with Harper's general hustle and work ethic.  Maybe Harper is getting a pass for being supremely talented, but with the level of talent in the MLB today, I have a hard time believing that anyone could be talented enough to play better than anyone else without putting in the work.

 

The issue of hustle seems to be a small part of the bad blood between Harper and Paplebon anyway.  It seems a lot more likely that Paplebon was upset by Harper's remarks after Paplebon hit Machado with a pitch that was very likely intentional (and only missed hitting Machado's head due to the fact that his shoulder was in the way).  Harper called it tired and he's right, throwing baseballs at guys for perceived showboating is tired and it's bad for the game.  Certainly Harper's ego didn't help to diffuse the situation, but Paplebon is not being a veteran leader calling out a young player, he's a 34-year-old picking a fight with his new teammate for his own selfish reasons.

 

The best take I've read on the situation is probably from this wapo article which points out how jarring the incident is to young fans.  Players jog out pop flies all the time, and I have a hard time believing that it leaves any kind of impression on kids watching the game.  What does leave an impression are things like beanballs, which teach that it's ok to retaliate with violence if you feel you've been upstaged.  And certainly a superstar being attacked in the dugout leaves an impression and is terrible for the game.

[Mike Sixel]

I haven't really really payed too much attention to the Nationals for the past few year, but reading the comments from Nationals fans about the incident, there does not seem to be any dissatisfaction with Harper's general hustle and work ethic.  Maybe Harper is getting a pass for being supremely talented, but with the level of talent in the MLB today, I have a hard time believing that anyone could be talented enough to play better than anyone else without putting in the work.

 

The issue of hustle seems to be a small part of the bad blood between Harper and Paplebon anyway.  It seems a lot more likely that Paplebon was upset by Harper's remarks after Paplebon hit Machado with a pitch that was very likely intentional (and only missed hitting Machado's head due to the fact that his shoulder was in the way).  Harper called it tired and he's right, throwing baseballs at guys for perceived showboating is tired and it's bad for the game.  Certainly Harper's ego didn't help to diffuse the situation, but Paplebon is not being a veteran leader calling out a young player, he's a 34-year-old picking a fight with his new teammate for his own selfish reasons.

 

The best take I've read on the situation is probably from this wapo article which points out how jarring the incident is to young fans.  Players jog out pop flies all the time, and I have a hard time believing that it leaves any kind of impression on kids watching the game.  What does leave an impression are things like beanballs, which teach that it's ok to retaliate with violence if you feel you've been upstaged.  And certainly a superstar being attacked in the dugout leaves an impression and is terrible for the game.

I would marry this post, if I wasn't already married and it was legal....

[Thrylos]

 

I would like Gardy to coach the Nats.   He could win a WS with that talented bunch and I would like Gardy to win one.

 

But mostly I would like to see him start Francoeur over Harper a few times a week

 

Yeah, Gardenhire has a long track record of a. wining world series (even if his team has both the CY and MVP winners) and b. dealing with "colorful" personalities in the clubhouse.

 

I'd love to see Gardnehire manage there, just for the fun of it.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The best take I've read on the situation is probably from this wapo article which points out how jarring the incident is to young fans.  Players jog out pop flies all the time, and I have a hard time believing that it leaves any kind of impression on kids watching the game.  What does leave an impression are things like beanballs, which teach that it's ok to retaliate with violence if you feel you've been upstaged.  And certainly a superstar being attacked in the dugout leaves an impression and is terrible for the game.

 

This is so perfectly said.  It is beyond stupid IMO, to defend throwing at someone for watching their homerun ball sail out of the ballpark and in the same breath talk about "good sportsmanship". 

 

I'd rather have every kid showboating their home runs and jogging out their pop-ups than throwing at each other for retaliation.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Players are siding with Papelbon, but anonymously. LOL

[Mike Sixel]

Players are siding with Papelbon, but anonymously. LOL

Proves to me that athletes are not the kind of people I want to hang out with, generally. And when you say "players", what does that mean?

 

And, we know from the last two years, when players have voted him as Over Rated and not good.....that they just don't like him, for no good reason......

 

Bah, I never should have looked on the interwebs, now I know that most of these guys are people that I could never hang out with.

[Mike Sixel]

This is from a PURE GOLD article on Grantland:

 

why we can’t just smile, wave, and watch Harper have a great season instead of obsessing over how fast he runs on routine outs. We all start out as Daisy, and we all end up straight-faced and stressed. Being Daisy looks like a lot more fun.

 

The most maddening aspect of these episodes is that the sport’s self-appointed policers are so often unworthy of the office. Coming from a fan-taunting crotch-grabber who so often finds fault with his teammates, Papelbon’s critique was hard to take seriously. “I didn’t maybe necessarily do it the right way,” said Papelbon, who admitted that he’d made a mistake but didn’t maybe necessarily sound as remorseful as he might have. He knows he handled this wrong, but he still believes that it had to be handled.

 

I’d counter that Harper is smart enough to know when he can run at less than full speed. According to Baseball Info Solutions’ Range and Positioning System, batted balls similar to Harper’s on the play in question are caught 100 percent of the time. “That number is rounded and is based on a window of several years of similar batted balls,” says BIS’s Scott Spratt. “But for practical purposes, similar balls are pretty much always caught.” A .336/.467/.658 slash line doesn’t buy a player a pass, but it should buy him the benefit of the doubt. Harper has reached the level of performance at which the right way to play is “however Harper does it.”

 

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/2015-mlb-washington-nationals-bryce-harper-jonathan-papelbon-fight-matt-williams/

[jimmer]

 

Proves to me that athletes are not the kind of people I want to hang out with, generally. And when you say "players", what does that mean?

And, we know from the last two years, when players have voted him as Over Rated and not good.....that they just don't like him, for no good reason......

Bah, I never should have looked on the interwebs, now I know that most of these guys are people that I could never hang out with.

Could be as simple as veteran versus young guy and players almost always go in favor of the veteran. But I agree, I wouldn't want to hang out with anyone who puts the blame on the guy who GOT CHOKED.  

 

And remember, this all started because this relief pitcher was behind-hurt because Harper didn't support him beaning someone in a recent game (didn't support old school ridiculousness).  THAT is where it really stems from. Nowthe same relief pitcher gets in the face of, and then chokes, Harper because he didn't unnecessarily sprint out a sure out.  Convenient excuse.

 

Harper busts his behind in the field and on the bases when it warrants it.  That play didn't need an all out sprint at all.  It's an out for sure and if it's dropped, he's safe at first.  Would have been hilarious if he sprinted out, was halfway to 2nd, the guy drops it and throws him out at 2B.  What would the old school, behind-hurt people say then? :-)

[TheLeviathan]

 

Proves to me that athletes are not the kind of people I want to hang out with, generally. And when you say "players", what does that mean?

And, we know from the last two years, when players have voted him as Over Rated and not good.....that they just don't like him, for no good reason......

Bah, I never should have looked on the interwebs, now I know that most of these guys are people that I could never hang out with.

 

It's also a further indictment of why the mantra of "let the players police themselves" is akin to "let the inmates run the asylum".

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Proves to me that athletes are not the kind of people I want to hang out with, generally. And when you say "players", what does that mean?And, we know from the last two years, when players have voted him as Over Rated and not good.....that they just don't like him, for no good reason......Bah, I never should have looked on the interwebs, now I know that most of these guys are people that I could never hang out with.

I bet there's some professional jealously in players siding with Papelbon. Harper is only 22 and is miles better than all those other guys and they are probably too proud to admit that.

[gunnarthor]

 http://cdn.meme.am/instances/64506856.jpg

[Winston Smith]

Terry should jump on this maybe Duensing for Harper could get it done. They can teach him how to hustle.

[USAFChief]

"I’d counter that Harper is smart enough to know when he can run at less than full speed"

 

We disagree on a fundamental truth about sports.

 

 

[h2oface]

My opinions.........

 

It is cowardly to try to hit a batter with a pitch. period. ever. bad tradition. cowardly tradition.

It is lazy to not run out a pop up, grounder, or a dropped third strike. ever. always.

Reading this thread, it feels like I walked in on my daughter watching "The View". So many opinions are expressed without really knowing the players and reasons and what it is all really about, and my bet is that it is something other than what happened. It is not just about the event, but something else that was being suppressed. 

 

And then......... I don't really care about this non event. Some people just don't like each other, and even they don't really know why.

[mickeymental]

yesterday cano struck out to make the second out in the ninth inning of a one-run game against the angels -- a game with post-season implications. the catcher dropped the ball but a frustrated cano just stood there and the catcher never had to make a throw to first. stuff like that happens every day in the majors. cano should have headed for first to make the catcher throw. he didn't. but if any teammates had anything to say to cano, it was apparently handled in the clubhouse. as it should be.

[TheLeviathan]

This seems relevant.