NEWS: Twins Agree to Sign Infielder Ty France

[howeda7]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

So, one fourth of the time, while France plays 75 percent? You're making my point. 

If France is terrible and plays too much, even while Miranda plays well, that's mostly on Rocco. I don't think they were ever going to role with Miranda and Julien as the only 1B options. So if it wasn't Ty France it was going to be some other cheap veteran.

[chpettit19]

I really liked France 2 years ago. If I remember correctly, I even advocated for getting him last year with the thought that 2023 was a down year and he'd bounce back. He didn't bounce back. He got worse. Even with playing 52 games in one of the best hitter's parks in baseball. Maybe he bounces back. Maybe Bader bounces back. Maybe they both pull Santana's and have shockingly effective looking seasons. It's entirely possible. But the chances aren't high. 

This is another "floor" move. I'm so sick of the floor move. I don't know when Falvey got the green light for more spending. It very well could've been a week ago. But this has been nearly as disappointing of an offseason as last year. They continue with their multiple questionable "vets for good money on 1 year deals" trend. I think every reasonable person on these boards understand that the young guys may fail. They may all fail miserably. But they may not. The odds of them being good are significantly higher than vets who have proved they aren't. As I said in paragraph 1, it's completely possible these guys surprise and are good. But team building is all about the odds. You're trying to predict the future. What percent chance do we have of X happening is the question. The Twins seem to be hyper focused on raising the percent chance that the floor doesn't fall out from under them even if it costs them on the chances of reaching the ceiling of "true contender." Is it because of the 2022 and 2024 collapses? I don't know. Reasonable guess. But I'm sick of it. I want to raise to percent chance of raising the ceiling even if it means risking the floor crumbling. Planning to not be worse than "ok" leads to your best chances being that you're "ok." I'm so sick of "ok."

[Parfigliano]

4 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

He's picking France over Miranda and other internal options, options his organization drafted and coached. 

I hope they aren't picking France over Miranda and the other internal options but this signing really makes it look like they are.

[sweetmusicviola16]

5 minutes ago, howeda7 said:

I assume Miranda will still be on the team and play against all LH starters. Either at 1B, 3B or DH. Julien is the one out in this scenario unless he wins the 2B job over Brooks Lee.

Miranda will make the team, unless we make another splash FA signing. lol

 

Julien, Gasper or Martin gets dropped. My personal guess is Martin.

Where is our player pipeline if our milb guys continue to get pushed back behind veteran FA's?

[NYCTK]

Well, Ty France sucks. But it looked like the Twins were breaking camp with either Austin Martin or Micky Gasper on the roster. And they also suck. So now there's more competition for players to be the player that sucks the least? 

[howeda7]

1 minute ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

Miranda will make the team, unless we make another splash FA signing. lol

 

Julien, Gasper or Martin gets dropped. My personal guess is Martin.

Where is our player pipeline if our milb guys continue to get pushed back behind veteran FA's?

We signed a whopping two position player free agents and you're upset about prospects getting blocked? I don't really care if Julien or Gasper make the team. Julien probably needs to rebuild his value in St. Paul anyway and Gasper is a nothing ML veteran.

[chpettit19]

7 minutes ago, howeda7 said:

I assume Miranda will still be on the team and play against all LH starters. Either at 1B, 3B or DH. Julien is the one out in this scenario unless he wins the 2B job over Brooks Lee.

Turning Jose Miranda into a short side platoon bat so you can play Ty France would be quite the choice.

[mikelink45]

1 hour ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

Hader, Coulombe, and France. They could have done worse. 

give them a chance and they will

[howeda7]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

Turning Jose Miranda into a short side platoon bat so you can play Ty France would be quite the choice.

If Miranda hits anywhere close to how he did the middle part of 2024, he should play almost daily and France will become a twice a week bench player. If Miranda hits how he did the last two months, he's probably worse than France.

[karcherd]

11 minutes ago, howeda7 said:

These are the fringe players of the roster. They had obvious needs for a LH reliever, 1B and back-up OF'er. They filled them. All three are "meh" signings but none of them are robbing roster spots from anyone meaningful.

Based on history France will be starting over Miranda and Miranda will be robbed of getting needed experience at 1B.  And then next offseason, the question will be who play 1B, because we don't give the internal options a real chance. Bader will get 350 to 400 AB's if Rocco continues his Rocco ball, again taken from Larnach, Martin Kiersey, maybe E-Rod.

[NYCTK]

4 minutes ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

Where is our player pipeline if our milb guys continue to get pushed back behind veteran FA's?

Martin was given a huge chance last season and he sucked it up. 

[sweetmusicviola16]

6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I really liked France 2 years ago. If I remember correctly, I even advocated for getting him last year with the thought that 2023 was a down year and he'd bounce back. He didn't bounce back. He got worse. Even with playing 52 games in one of the best hitter's parks in baseball. Maybe he bounces back. Maybe Bader bounces back. Maybe they both pull Santana's and have shockingly effective looking seasons. It's entirely possible. But the chances aren't high. 

This is another "floor" move. I'm so sick of the floor move. I don't know when Falvey got the green light for more spending. It very well could've been a week ago. But this has been nearly as disappointing of an offseason as last year. They continue with their multiple questionable "vets for good money on 1 year deals" trend. I think every reasonable person on these boards understand that the young guys may fail. They may all fail miserably. But they may not. The odds of them being good are significantly higher than vets who have proved they aren't. As I said in paragraph 1, it's completely possible these guys surprise and are good. But team building is all about the odds. You're trying to predict the future. What percent chance do we have of X happening is the question. The Twins seem to be hyper focused on raising the percent chance that the floor doesn't fall out from under them even if it costs them on the chances of reaching the ceiling of "true contender." Is it because of the 2022 and 2024 collapses? I don't know. Reasonable guess. But I'm sick of it. I want to raise to percent chance of raising the ceiling even if it means risking the floor crumbling. Planning to not be worse than "ok" leads to your best chances being that you're "ok." I'm so sick of "ok."

I'm with you 100% on this. I would rather take the chance and be 94-68 even if it means we could finish 75-87. I have seen too where young teams grow greatly too when they finish 75-87. Because they got the chance to develop. Miranda isn't going to develop at the same place playing behind Ty France. 

[howeda7]

1 minute ago, karcherd said:

Based on history France will be starting over Miranda and Miranda will be robbed of getting needed experience at 1B.  And then next offseason, the question will be who play 1B, because we don't give the internal options a real chance. Bader will get 350 to 400 AB's if Rocco continues his Rocco ball, again taken from Larnach, Martin Kiersey, maybe E-Rod.

Miranda and Kiersey are themselves fringe roster players at this point. Miranda was probably never going to be the every day 1B.

E-Rod was never going to be on the team to sit on the bench. If there's an injury to Wallenr or Larnach he'll be up.

[sweetmusicviola16]

6 minutes ago, howeda7 said:

We signed a whopping two position player free agents and you're upset about prospects getting blocked? I don't really care if Julien or Gasper make the team. Julien probably needs to rebuild his value in St. Paul anyway and Gasper is a nothing ML veteran.

I would have liked this team to have done what it took to sign HaSeong Kim and actually raised the talent level to another level. France and Bader do little to nothing to raise the bar up. 

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, howeda7 said:

If Miranda hits anywhere close to how he did the middle part of 2024, he should play almost daily and France will become a twice a week bench player. If Miranda hits how he did the last two months, he's probably worse than France.

Giving him 25% of the plate appearances to try to hit like he did for the first 4 months of last year (all of which were better than France, and the 5th month was barely worse than France) is the complaint. Well, part of the complaint. The other part of the complaint is that the bar they're trying to clear is "be better than an injured and falling apart Miranda."

Replacing a player you're worried may be bad with a player you know is bad is a weird strategy to support.

[mikelink45]

The Yankees and Luis Gil thought this was a wonderful signing and hope we choose some more bargain basement hairballs and release some more pitchers. 

And by the way Miranda BR = 1.7 WAR 284/322/441  in 2024.  Ty France -0.6  234/305/365.  Why is this a good signing?

[Charleo]

10 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

He's picking France over Miranda and other internal options, options his organization drafted and coached. 

Point taken, 100%.   The hope is that is not the case.  I hope this is a depth signing and he'll be used like Farmer, here and there (different positions, I realize).   I just think we're blaming the wrong guy.  Falvey is handicapped to signing guys for a few million, if that.  Lots of those guys out there, but none of them are good.   But overall, I agree that Miranda is the better option and I hope he wins the position battle that appears to be developing.  I just think we're blaming the wrong guy when Pohlad is the one directing this mess of a budget.   

[howeda7]

3 minutes ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

I would have liked this team to have done what it took to sign HaSeong Kim and actually raised the talent level to another level. France and Bader do little to nothing to raise the bar up. 

Fine but that's a different discussion. The OP said he was fine with Falvey "until the last week" and is now "done". That makes no sense as there's really nothing subtantive Falvey could have done in the last week and these signings are all fairly mundane minor moves. Getting upset about them seems ridiculous.

I personally would love both Falvey and Rocco gone after the season. But given the sale of the team, they were never going anywhere this off-season nor were the Twins going to go out and spend $50 million in free agency.

[jmlease1]

2 minutes ago, howeda7 said:

Miranda and Kiersey are themselves fringe roster players at this point. Miranda was probably never going to be the every day 1B.

E-Rod was never going to be on the team to sit on the bench. If there's an injury to Wallenr or Larnach he'll be up.

Miranda and Kiersey don't belong in the same sentence here, though. miranda put up 1.7 bWAR last season with a 112 OPS+. He's been a good hitter 2 of the last 3 season in MLB, despite his injury issues. Kiersey got a cup of coffee in MLB for the first time last season and is older than Miranda.

Miranda should not be seen as a fringe roster player, especially for the Twins, who need hitting.

[Schmoeman5]

I can't wait for the good Dr's post

[sweetmusicviola16]

6 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Martin was given a huge chance last season and he sucked it up. 

So did Ty France. I guess I fail to see how replacing a player that sucked with another player that sucked as an improvement. 

[howeda7]

Just now, jmlease1 said:

Miranda and Kiersey don't belong in the same sentence here, though. miranda put up 1.7 bWAR last season with a 112 OPS+. He's been a good hitter 2 of the last 3 season in MLB, despite his injury issues. Kiersey got a cup of coffee in MLB for the first time last season and is older than Miranda.

Miranda should not be seen as a fringe roster player, especially for the Twins, who need hitting.

He's a fringe roster player because he hasn't sustained his hitting for any long periods of time and he has no natural position. 3B is probably his best position but he's blocked there. He's definitely not a strong defensive 1B (but no neither is France.)

[karcherd]

6 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Martin was given a huge chance last season and he sucked it up. 

So after 250 AB's, we say he is done and should retire.  At some point you have to develop your players and give them a chance.  I am not sure if Martin can become a useful player in the major leagues but I am not sure he was given a real chance last year.  This organization wants to go with end of road vets rather than develop talent and it is not working.

[howeda7]

This team has no set DH. Miranda will have plenty of AB's available if he hits well.

[Cory Engelhardt]

4 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

The Yankees and Luis Gil thought this was a wonderful signing and hope we choose some more bargain basement hairballs and release some more pitchers. 

And by the way Miranda BR = 1.7 WAR 284/322/441  in 2024.  Ty France -0.6  234/305/365.  Why is this a good signing?

Look back and give more data. Back to 2020. You'll see your answer then.

And, I don't think this is a Miranda vs. France thing. I think it's a France vs. Julien/Martin/Gasper thing. 

Everyone take a deep breath. It's going to be ok. 

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, howeda7 said:

Fine but that's a different discussion. The OP said he was fine with Falvey "until the last week" and now "done". That makes no sense as there's really nothing Falvey could have done in the last week and these signings are all fairly mundane minor moves. Getting upset about them seems ridiculous.

I personally would love both Falvey and Rocco gone after the season. But given the sale of the team, they were never going anywhere this off-season nor were the Twins going to go out and spend $50 million in free agency.

Bader got 8 million. He's not a minor signing for this team. 

[jmlease1]

1 minute ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

Look back and give more data. Back to 2020. You'll see your answer then.

And, I don't think this is a Miranda vs. France thing. I think it's a France vs. Julien/Martin/Gasper thing. 

Everyone take a deep breath. It's going to be ok. 

Julien's been a better player more recently than Ty France has.

[howeda7]

Just now, Mike Sixel said:

Bader got 8 million. He's not a minor signing for this team. 

Unless they turn around and trade Willi Castro to offset it or something it doesn't matter. There's no salary cap and whether he makes $8 million $2 million matters little.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, howeda7 said:

This team has no set DH. Miranda will have plenty of AB's available if he hits well.

Where do larnach and bader both play if Miranda is the DH?

[NYCTK]

4 minutes ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

So did Ty France. I guess I fail to see how replacing a player that sucked with another player that sucked as an improvement. 

No real harm in making two bad players compete for a job.